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Without free kustom jobs I see even less reasons to take speedmob/waaagh. It’s basically go goff pressure or go home. I’m not saying this because of massive jumps in power for those units but frankly I wouldn’t take squigbuggies without a free nitrosquig. I wouldn’t take shokk gun without a free runtsucka. Etc etc

One weird note here. I used trukk nobs (5 double choppas, 5 big choppa/choppa) for the giggles in 2 different match ups, and while i fought against 2 armies in which my loadout kinda sucked (DG and imperial knights) they actually werent too bad. The damage was not amazing against the knights, and against death guard my big choppas were absolutely wasted, but what I DID note was, they were surprisingly resilient when running in with the waagh.

20 wounds based around 10 models, with a 4 up save, or a 3 up against shooting in cover, and a 5++ on my waagh, and a 6++ the next turn.

Againdt the knight player they survived for 2 full rounds of melee and shooting, and against the DG player the last nob died turn 5, while spænding turn 2-5 on the frontline. So while their damage was super they were really good at soaking up damage instead.

I guess my big choppas would come in handy versus space marines. Yea armor of contempt, but you make enough hits that some will go theough, and those will kill a space marines. Maybe I should to with them without trukkboy keyword to get kulture and keep them with only choppas.

This isnt for super competitiveness, maybe semi competitiveness. I was though, surprised with their resilience when the waagh was cast and they ran in.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:
So my 40k app updated again today, and Kustom Jobs now have points costs again.

GW is frankly all over the place right now with their rules. They definitely are having trouble keeping up with all the changes they're making and it feels like they're making things up as they go along.

Not to mention the App still hasn't actualized the Freebootas Nerf.

The custom jobs was an obvious oversight...

But anyway, there hasn't been much talk on the durability gains. At 8 ppm a basic boy at T5 with at most two turns of 5++ is simply something that was not available before.

Yes, their damage output got savaged by AoC. But they still, I think, unquestionably gained some options to become tougher per point, which is what people were saying the issue was originally (not lack of output, lack of resilience).

Granted they still have the leadership issues.

 TedNugent wrote:
The custom jobs was an obvious oversight...

But anyway, there hasn't been much talk on the durability gains. At 8 ppm a basic boy at T5 with at most two turns of 5++ is simply something that was not available before.

Yes, their damage output got savaged by AoC. But they still, I think, unquestionably gained some options to become tougher per point, which is what people were saying the issue was originally (not lack of output, lack of resilience).

Granted they still have the leadership issues.

Honestly, after having finished my beastsnaggas and giving them a few games, I see zero reason to ever play boyz again unless they are trukk boyz. When a unit of boyz is 90 and a unit of snaggas is 100, it's not even a competition anymore.

I just figured since boyz are S5 for two turns and 5++/6++ during WAAAGH, those are the biggest material advantages between snaggas and regular gits.

Snaggas are still 11% more expensive per model (assuming you take a klaw). Are they really that drastically better, and wouldn't you want to spend the least amount possible on your "troop tax?"

I think that we're in an unusual spot where boyz are not only fragile per point but also deal very low amount of damage with everything being multiwound, well armored and not very expensive.

Boyz just can't handle most of stuff they were good against just an edition ago.

S5-6 doesn't cut it. They can be s100 and still be bad. The main damage problem is that they bounce off anything marine. And are still very slow to choose their own fights. And when you take a trukk or a wagon they get so expensive, they can't deal with comparable points of enemy units. Even with shooty ones cause they're too tough.

Naw, Snaggas are the defacto troops. Given the Codex and edition screams MSU, these guys are the best.


Str 6 is still a huge breakpoint in non-Goffs (lots of T5 troops out there). In Goffs, they go to Str 7! Which again, makes them even more all purpose, as Snaggas are vehicle hunters.

The Snagga claw would go to str 9 in goffs as well. Free claw that hits on 3s.

Given the strat support, the fact they can go into kill rigs, and just generally getting a lot for 10 points (6++, +1 to hit vs vehicles...), I don't see much of any reason to take boys.

Truck boys are still great though if you want that, but otherwise I'd leave boys at home.

 TedNugent wrote:
I just figured since boyz are S5 for two turns and 5++/6++ during WAAAGH, those are the biggest material advantages between snaggas and regular gits.

Snaggas are still 11% more expensive per model (assuming you take a klaw). Are they really that drastically better, and wouldn't you want to spend the least amount possible on your "troop tax?"

Snaggas essentially are boyz with second turn of Waaagh! for all game. During T1 boyz have to huddle around a KFF to get any save at all and in T1 or T4-5 they simply lose the ability to kill stuff reliably. In my experience an army based on boyz loses all steam when the Waaagh! runs out and just falls apart.

Snaggas on the other hand go to S6 during the Waaagh! which is probably the most important jump in the game (S8 for their nob), can grind down vehicles with weight of attacks and 2+ to hit on their nob.
Even if you are running goff, permanents S6 with S7 during the Waaagh! still is a great benefit.

And that's before you factor in the Tough as Squig Hide, Snagga Grapple and Monster Hunters stratagems, which are all quite expensive but also can be game changers when used in the right situation.

No matter what the percentage is, I'll always find 20-30 points to upgrade all mobs to beastsnaggas.

I played the new orks. My friend has been on a loosing streaks. Cheaper boys and the new whaaaaaag put him far up ahead. We have a good game.

How ever, he very often has flash gits in a battlewaggon. They stay in there and shoot all day. Are they very good VS SW in particular? I know the Internett hates them, but they are just marine killers. They are maximum threats every game. Is this just us?

If you're looking for a squad that will stay back and hold and objective then a barebones squad of 10 for 80points is ok. Literally if you're trying to squeeze 20 points in elsewhere on your list.

CaptainO wrote:
If you're looking for a squad that will stay back and hold and objective then a barebones squad of 10 for 80points is ok. Literally if you're trying to squeeze 20 points in elsewhere on your list.

If you want to have a squad which contributes nothing to your game, you can always bring gretchin at half that cost.
It's not like those 10 boyz will be able to defend the objective from anything going after them twice as good as those gretchin will.

I've really gone through the iterations, and there is little boyz have going for them. In PL-based games at least they get a free pair of rokkits, but when you have to pay points for those upgrades? You're better off with either upgrade to a unit that can actually kill stuff or keep your troops as cheap as possible.

 TedNugent wrote:
Are they really that drastically better, and wouldn't you want to spend the least amount possible on your "troop tax?"

The Snaggas are even stronger and have the 6++ on turns that Waaagh isn't in effect, and they hit vehicles and monsters on twos.

As others have said, regular boys are only worth taking as Trukk Boys, and that's not because they deal damage. I take a unit of Trukk Boys because they pull double duty as both first turn charging/contesting alongside blobs of Kommandos, and a taxi service for my Dakka Mek.

If I had points for wagons/rigs, I would 100% change them for Snaggas.

Agree that Snaggas are probably better, but Boyz have access to Tankbusta bombs which just beats Snaggas supposed advantage vs vehicles.

The 6++ is redundant since you only pick a handful. If Snagruk lived or not doesn´t matter most of the time, but the break point due to strength does if you expect them to keep fighting past Waaagh!!.

Also depends on your warlord… if your taking a snagga on squig his aura only works on snaggas..

Honestly as objective holders Gretchin are better right now then boys due to get the good bits and orrible gitz being obj secured. Heck if you are taking a runtherder they are faster too… I don’t think boys are awful but they really don’t serve a purpose when Gretchin and snaggas exist as okay troops.. they need to fix a lot of strategems and morale issues for boyz specifically (hey mob rule why do you suck) and I wouldn’t mind seeing a bonus for large 20+ boy units return… and boys should be decent for greentide lists that way.

So I see 2 options for boys to work… make trukk boys a boys rule (allowing them to keep klan kultur too)
Or
Make mob rule a better morale bonus for boys units of 10+ and 20+. Fix Strat cost (most should cost 1cp) breakin eads should be free the first use or 1 use only per game and free.
And Add -1ap to warpath pyschic power..

 Scactha wrote:
Agree that Snaggas are probably better, but Boyz have access to Tankbusta bombs which just beats Snaggas supposed advantage vs vehicles.

Snaggas also have a stratagem that not just works against vehicles, but also against monsters. Granted, it costs more CP than the tankbusta bomb does, but it targets up to three units and (assuming an AoC vehicle) does just as much damage during any Waaagh! turn - with much less variance.

I think there is a point to the tankbusta bomb stratagem. Which is why i also like kommandos. The tankbusta bomb stratagem is really underrated.

While i much prefer snagga boys over boys, having at least some unit being able to use tankbusta bomb in your army is really valuable.

Beardedragon wrote:
I think there is a point to the tankbusta bomb stratagem. Which is why i also like kommandos. The tankbusta bomb stratagem is really underrated.

While i much prefer snagga boys over boys, having at least some unit being able to use tankbusta bomb in your army is really valuable.

Kommadoz are an all-round great unit, not infantry based army should go without them.

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
I think there is a point to the tankbusta bomb stratagem. Which is why i also like kommandos. The tankbusta bomb stratagem is really underrated.

While i much prefer snagga boys over boys, having at least some unit being able to use tankbusta bomb in your army is really valuable.

Kommadoz are an all-round great unit, not infantry based army should go without them.

I agree, every list that runs any infantry should be taking 3x5 kommandos at a minimum

Ehm….


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is really pretty hard to make some plans regarding the list in the moment, there are no fix rules. Because this says: “Even GW knows this is a nonsence and plan to fix it soon, so don ´t bother with this.”

So here is the thing with AoC and the new Ork buffs for boyz.

Boyz before AoC were on a WAAAAGH turn getting about a 66.6% return on investment in CC vs Marines.

Boyz after AoC on a WAAAGH turn were getting about a 44.4% return on investment in CC vs Marines.

Boyz POST AoC and post Buffs are now doing...ready for this....66.6% return on investment in CC vs Marines.

So to summarize the whole thing, Ork boyz are now as good in CC Vs. Marines as they were when the codex dropped, IE not great but not terrible. All of our shooting vs Marines got noticeably worse and especially freeboota Ork builds. (RIP). The real benefit is that with the +1S on the WAAAGH a lot of other builds got more palatable since we aren't forced into playing Goff.

I'm a bit tempted to try and bring a Speed Freakz list featuring lots of Koptas and Wagons since they are now significantly more durable and good in CC thanks to these changes.

Few top 4s this weekend. Sounds like a bunch of Ghaz lists.

This got 4th at Show me down

https://pastebin.com/FiX2hxhx

tulun wrote:
Few top 4s this weekend. Sounds like a bunch of Ghaz lists.

This got 4th at Show me down

https://pastebin.com/FiX2hxhx

Necrons cropping up all over the place this weekend.

Have you got any of the other lists?

Sadly I got this from reddit, I'm not subscribed to BCP.

SemperMortis wrote:
So here is the thing with AoC and the new Ork buffs for boyz.

Boyz before AoC were on a WAAAAGH turn getting about a 66.6% return on investment in CC vs Marines.

Boyz after AoC on a WAAAGH turn were getting about a 44.4% return on investment in CC vs Marines.

Boyz POST AoC and post Buffs are now doing...ready for this....66.6% return on investment in CC vs Marines.

So to summarize the whole thing, Ork boyz are now as good in CC Vs. Marines as they were when the codex dropped, IE not great but not terrible. All of our shooting vs Marines got noticeably worse and especially freeboota Ork builds. (RIP). The real benefit is that with the +1S on the WAAAGH a lot of other builds got more palatable since we aren't forced into playing Goff.

I'm a bit tempted to try and bring a Speed Freakz list featuring lots of Koptas and Wagons since they are now significantly more durable and good in CC thanks to these changes.

Caveat that 66.6% is now ONLY during Waagh.. so orks are worse off outside of waaagh vs marines… but honestly it’s the 2 turns of 5++ that keeps orks alive til turn 4 where they have enough left to score. I still think orks are low B tier but at least we aren’t C tier anymore


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tulun wrote:
Few top 4s this weekend. Sounds like a bunch of Ghaz lists.

This got 4th at Show me down

https://pastebin.com/FiX2hxhx

On a related note this also includes free kustom jobs in the list… and most of this past weeks tournament rankings. Orks win rate: 46%

I’d be fine if we stayed around 46%+…

I will do the Comp Innovation reports again. Maybe this week already. It had no sence in the moment, every tournament had different rules…

gungo wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
So here is the thing with AoC and the new Ork buffs for boyz.

Boyz before AoC were on a WAAAAGH turn getting about a 66.6% return on investment in CC vs Marines.

Boyz after AoC on a WAAAGH turn were getting about a 44.4% return on investment in CC vs Marines.

Boyz POST AoC and post Buffs are now doing...ready for this....66.6% return on investment in CC vs Marines.

So to summarize the whole thing, Ork boyz are now as good in CC Vs. Marines as they were when the codex dropped, IE not great but not terrible. All of our shooting vs Marines got noticeably worse and especially freeboota Ork builds. (RIP). The real benefit is that with the +1S on the WAAAGH a lot of other builds got more palatable since we aren't forced into playing Goff.

I'm a bit tempted to try and bring a Speed Freakz list featuring lots of Koptas and Wagons since they are now significantly more durable and good in CC thanks to these changes.

Caveat that 66.6% is now ONLY during Waagh.. so orks are worse off outside of waaagh vs marines… but honestly it’s the 2 turns of 5++ that keeps orks alive til turn 4 where they have enough left to score. I still think orks are low B tier but at least we aren’t C tier anymore

Very fair point. Pre AoC without WAAAGH Ork boyz were 9ppm and a mob of 30 were dishing out 90 attacks, 60 hits, 30 wounds and 15dmg 270pts doing 135pts of dmg or 50%, After AoC this dropped to 10dmg. So after AoC it was 270pts doing 90pts of dmg, that is a 33% return on investment. Now that boyz are 8ppm they are 240pts doing 90pts of dmg so the return on investment in CC becomes 37.4% so pretty terrible honestly But the WAAAGH bonus really helps them push it over the top in a lot of ways.

The point being is that boyz are Pt for Pt terrible compared to Tac Marines who are themselves pretty bad. In a WAAAGH turn those boyz hit WAY above their grade but its only good for 2 turns, so usually turns 1-2 or turns 2-3.

Funny way how to make around 100 models per player obsolete… now I now how the hummie players feel with the Primaris marines

I'm surprised I haven't been seeing more lists with burna Boyz with the rise of kill rigs.

what do burnaboyz and kill rigs have in common?

killrigs can only transport Snagga models, which burnas are not.