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The internet propaganda against Flayed Ones is ridiculous. I want to once and for all put an end to these false rumors that Flayed Ones suck or that the old ones were in any way better than the current ones.

First lets compare old ones to current ones...

3rd Ed Flayed Ones vs 5th Ed Flayed Ones
Pros:
- Move Through Cover
- Terrifying Visage
- 3+ save

Cons:
- 5 pts more expensive
- Can only be taken in squads of 10
- 1 less attack

For 5 pts the selling point is that you get a 3+ save which is a great deal for 5 pts. However Terrifying Visage was useless as most things you fight are Ld 9/10 and only works for 1 round of combat so FO of old would NEVER rely on it on their own. The big minus here is that you can't take larger squads and you get 1 less attack for what is arguably a mediocre CC unit.

1 Flayed Old School flayed one = 3 Ork Boyz. The boyz have similar stats and way more attacks.

Orks make their living off dice saturation because on their own they suck, but in large numbers they work solidly. The new Flayed Ones are more akin to Ork 'Ard Boyz.which any ork player will surely attest are solid choices in any ork list.

5th Ed Flayed One vs 'Ard Boyz
Pros:
- Permanent S4 (no need for furious charge)
- Leadership 10 always
- 3 Attacks that can't be denied by special abilities that affect close combat weapon bonuses.
- Infiltrate
- Deep Strike
- Reanimation Protocols

Cons:
- 3 pts more expensive than an 'Ard Boy
- not scoring

So if everyone agrees that 'Ard Boyz are solid and that they WORK, how can anyone in their right mind that getting ALL those listed bonuses for just 3 more points is anything short of an awesome deal??

Surely getting initaitive 3 on the charge doesnt mean much when most things you fight are initiative 4 anyway so you'll be hitting after them regardless. Yet 'Ard Boyz still triumph.

Or is it because you can add in an expensive nob with PK the only reason that people use 'Ard Boyz? If that's the case why not just take a normal boyz mob instead much cheaper same effect.

I hope this finally lays rest to the claims that Flayed Ones suck. They are better than the old version, and much better than even 'Ard Boyz.
They are not UBER cc units, the problem is people are fooled by the fact that they are elite choices and play them thinkin that they are using a mob of terminators or something. They are NOT paladins. Get over it.

Play the Flayed Ones in the same way you would run your unit of 'Ard Boyz and I guarantee they will do better fighting against the same targets. Point for Point the Flayed Ones are a steal.

Anyone care to prove me wrong? And not base it just entirely on theory hammer work out the maths and state your actual play experience where hopefully you didn't go sending them face first into a dreadnought and then crying because they got wiped out.

I honestly don't ever see anyone Take Ard'boyz. It seems to be with the pletheora of 4+ cover available and the KFF they become obsolete.

Your point about Flayed ones being better than them, is accurate, but what about Death Cult Assassins? for 2 more points than a Flayed one, they get a 5++, and 4 Power weapon attacks on the charge. They are also I6, so likely going first against almost everything.

You don't see those taken very often, and the reasoning is because while DCA are probably the best combat unit PPV in the game, when you throw them on a table top they tend not to be near as good as they look on paper. I feel that flayed ones suffer from the same issue.

One of the biggest things I find, is why would you ever take Flayed ones when you can Take Wraiths? Yes, wraiths are more expensive, but they can do EVERYTHING. They are quicker, go first in combat with Whipcoils, and can kill everything from elite infantry, to Land Raiders.

In addition, you don't really have to kill a whole bunch of flayed ones to reach the point of where they are not a threat anymore. It doesn't take a lot of shooting to weaken groups of flayed ones, to the point that anything they assault, will just sweep them.

It's really the I2 and 4+ save that hurts them the most in the end.

Things like Grey Hunters are Flayed ones worst nightmare, with Counter Attack and their CCW and BP.

I don't know much about the Necron Codex.

That being said, from an 'Ard Boy perspective, 'Ard Boyz are best used in a Trukk or Battlewagon to get them across the field and avoid taking any shooting until they get into Assault. Also in most Ork lists the points you spend on 'Ard Boyz can probably be better spent on MORE ORKS. But that's beside the point.

I don't know anything about Flayed Ones, but if your squad is limited to 10? I'd never footslog 10 'Ard Boyz across the field and expect them to do anything.

1. http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/?showtopic=43446

That's a dedicated Ork site. Ask there if the 'Ard Boyz are a good choice.

Where exactly are you not seeing ard boyz being taken often?? Perhaps coudl this be because of the theme of the list? or the meta in your area? Because I see ard boyz often. And even here on dakka people have recommended them to me before i started using them and seeing their value.

DCA are entirely different because they are not meant to be aimed at the same target and the flayed ones are much more survivable than a 5++

The Ard Boyz are the closest thing to a unit of Flayed Ones stat wise and in utility.

Wraiths wont kill a mob of Ork Boyz, Flayed Ones will. Thats why you use Flayed Ones, they work perfectly against everything you'd aimed Ard Boyz against. Other standard cc units or units where you need weight of dice to kill.

5 Flayed Ones will hurt a standard 5 man terminator unit with thunderhammers. Wraiths wont even dent it for the same point cost.

20 attacks from FO = 5 wounds on anything WS 4/T4
compared to 8 rending attacks from 2 wraiths that that only do 4 hits, maybe 1 rend and 3 wounds vs WS4/T4

This difference becomes greater as the numbers increase. But again people just need to practice more and learn which things to target with their flayed ones and they'll get the same results I'm getting when I play mine. Which is very similar and usually better than the ones I get when I play my orks.

Orks after the initial assault become S3 which seriously hurts them, the Flayed Ones will continue to have 3 attacks at S4 which is a huge plus in a war of attrition.

The initiative is ok because everything in the army is initaitive 2 including the wraiths.

and the 4+ save is GOOD it is not terrible. You just cant act like you are walking around with MEQ. Stop playing them in that way and you'll find more success.

Grey Hunters also decimate Orks, which is why I point out to you that you need to choose your targets wisely. It woudl be different if it was the case that Wyches, Grey Hunters, Blood Angels and everything else that excels at CC was only kicking the Flayed One's ass and not everything else as well.

But this is across the board the same for every army. Even souped up Tyranid gurants with furious charge and toxin sacs will take a beating from grey hunters and all other cc specialised units.

This does not mean that Flayed Ones suck. It just means you are pitting them against stuff that anything else would also lose again.

Murrdox wrote:I don't know much about the Necron Codex.

That being said, from an 'Ard Boy perspective, 'Ard Boyz are best used in a Trukk or Battlewagon to get them across the field and avoid taking any shooting until they get into Assault. Also in most Ork lists the points you spend on 'Ard Boyz can probably be better spent on MORE ORKS. But that's beside the point.

I don't know anything about Flayed Ones, but if your squad is limited to 10? I'd never footslog 10 'Ard Boyz across the field and expect them to do anything.

Completely agree but that's the OLD flayed ones that could only come in units of 10. The new ones can come in units of 20 which is the ideal size for 'ard boyz.

Also agreed on footsloggin 10 ard boyz being a bad idea, but flayed ones can outflank or deep strike or be teleported by a Monolith. They have many many ways to get around.

So you tell me would you pay 3 pts to give your Ork Kommandos a 4+ save? That's a better deal than the 4 pts that ork boyz pay to get that 4+ save.

Akaiyou wrote:

Orks make their living off dice saturation because on their own they suck, but in large numbers they work solidly. The new Flayed Ones are more akin to Ork 'Ard Boyz.which any ork player will surely attest are solid choices in any ork list.

Anyone care to prove me wrong? And not base it just entirely on theory hammer work out the maths and state your actual play experience where hopefully you didn't go sending them face first into a dreadnought and then crying because they got wiped out.

No any Ock player dose not think 'Ard Boyz are a saoild choose, as I never found a reason to add them to any of my Ork list. Just becouse it looks good on paper, dosen't mean they are, or make them fit well in a army.

But, I do think Flayed Ones are now better then they were or are giving credit for.

1. http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/?showtopic=43446

That's a dedicated Ork site. Ask there if the 'Ard Boyz are a good choice.

Where exactly are you not seeing ard boyz being taken often?? Perhaps coudl this be because of the theme of the list? or the meta in your area? Because I see ard boyz often. And even here on dakka people have recommended them to me before i started using them and seeing their value.

Perhaps, I just don't ever see them taken in my Local Meta.

DCA are entirely different because they are not meant to be aimed at the same target and the flayed ones are much more survivable than a 5++

What can you Aim FO at, that DCA won't be more effective at killing?

The Ard Boyz are the closest thing to a unit of Flayed Ones stat wise and in utility.

Wraiths wont kill a mob of Ork Boyz, Flayed Ones will. Thats why you use Flayed Ones, they work perfectly against everything you'd aimed Ard Boyz against. Other standard cc units or units where you need weight of dice to kill.

Wraiths CAN Kill an Ork Mob, since they will almost always be getting the charge, and it's unlikely that every Boy in the Mob can hit. A few whipcoils causing a chunk of the boyz to go after the wraiths hurt as well. Wraiths will cause an Average of 10 wounds to the boyz squad, that's 1/3rd right there. Assuming they are equipped with Shootas and I'm counting the 20 remaining all getting hits(Which is very unlikely) they will cause 2 unsaved wounds to the Wraiths. That's only one wraith possibly even less depending on if they took some different equipment for minor wound allocation, and the Boyz are now taking 7-8 fearless saves, so another 6-7 Boyz are dead.

Wraiths are not the Optimal thing to throw at Boyz squad, but it can be done and they can come out on top.

5 Flayed Ones will hurt a standard 5 man terminator unit with thunderhammers. Wraiths wont even dent it for the same point cost.

They Kill one, then are soundly destroyed. So the Terminators still come out on top Points wise.

20 attacks from FO = 5 wounds on anything WS 4/T4
compared to 8 rending attacks from 2 wraiths that that only do 4 hits, maybe 1 rend and 3 wounds vs WS4/T4

Which amounts to 2 dead MEQs, while the 5 wounds from the Flayed ones amounts to 1.75 unsaved wounds. The Wraiths are also going first since most people will take whipcoils on them. This makes a huge difference.

This difference becomes greater as the numbers increase. But again people just need to practice more and learn which things to target with their flayed ones and they'll get the same results I'm getting when I play mine. Which is very similar and usually better than the ones I get when I play my orks.

Orks after the initial assault become S3 which seriously hurts them, the Flayed Ones will continue to have 3 attacks at S4 which is a huge plus in a war of attrition.

Orks are likely not going to get swept, unlike the flayed ones. Going second really hurts them, in this.

The initiative is ok because everything in the army is initiative 2 including the wraiths.

Wraiths can take Whipcoils though, which reduces enemies in base contact to I1. Thansk to Wraithflight and whipcoils, they can even assault into cover and go first.

and the 4+ save is GOOD it is not terrible. You just cant act like you are walking around with MEQ. Stop playing them in that way and you'll find more success.

Why would you assume I'm playing them Like a MEQ Army?

Grey Hunters also decimate Orks, which is why I point out to you that you need to choose your targets wisely. It woudl be different if it was the case that Wyches, Grey Hunters, Blood Angels and everything else that excels at CC was only kicking the Flayed One's ass and not everything else as well.

But this is across the board the same for every army. Even souped up Tyranid gurants with furious charge and toxin sacs will take a beating from grey hunters and all other cc specialised units.

This does not mean that Flayed Ones suck. It just means you are pitting them against stuff that anything else would also lose again.

When most of things you run into, are some flavor of Marines, you should be taking that account into most of your lists. I run into a Lot of Space Wolves, Grey Knights, and Blood angels Armies, a lot more so than I do Orks or anything that the flayed ones are more effective against. They are by far the most commonly played armies, and the ones that should be taken into account the most when building a TAC list.

Also, It's not like I'm always given the choice of what I want to fight, considering all of those armies are much more maneuverable than Flayed ones are.

2 Wraiths, one with a whip OR 6 Flayed Ones:

I did it this way as running whips on 50% of your wraiths is general the strat, the FOs get 6 to make the points as close as possible.

2 Wraiths will:
Generate 1.5556 Dead against MeQ on the charge.

6 FOs will:
Generate 2 Dead against MeQ on the charge.

Of course the wraiths are more likely to actually get the charge, and strike first. But even if you allow for the FOs not getting the charge and one dying before they strike, they still kill 1.25 MeQ, not that far off of the wraiths.

Also, just because it was mentioned earlier, 15 FOs (the point equivalent) will kill 5 TH termies more often the the reversal. Pretty much if the FOs pass their leadership test in the first round, they should win.

I think the biggest things that hurt Flayed Ones are simply being an Elite choice, and of course I2. If they had made them a Troops choice, then you'd be able to build TAC lists that synergize much better with them. As it stands now, taking them into a list always seems to feel like you are shoehorning them in and hoping you don't get a bad matchup.

Also, the 6 FOs get 6 T4 4+ RP 5+ wounds, the 2 Wraiths get 4 T4 3++ wounds. The wraiths will tend to be more resilient against PWs (66% save vs the 33% RP), the FOs will tend to be more resilient against non PWs (66% save vs 66% save+RP, however the FOs have 50% more wounds).

]

b]2 Wraiths, one with a whip OR 6 Flayed Ones:[/b]

I did it this way as running whips on 50% of your wraiths is general the strat, the FOs get 6 to make the points as close as possible.

2 Wraiths will:
Generate 1.5556 Dead against MeQ on the charge.

6 FOs will:
Generate 2 Dead against MeQ on the charge.

This heavily depends on the Type of MEQ as well, and how many are in the squad. There are alot more factors to account for, since the Flayed ones are going second, which you don't have to worry about with the Wraiths.

Of course the wraiths are more likely to actually get the charge, and strike first. But even if you allow for the FOs not getting the charge and one dying before they strike, they still kill 1.25 MeQ, not that far off of the wraiths.

This is also if the Flayed ones don't charge into cover either, in which case they are going at the same time as the Powerfist that will be in the squad. Wraiths can charge into cover with whipcoils and Still go first.

Noir wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:

Orks make their living off dice saturation because on their own they suck, but in large numbers they work solidly. The new Flayed Ones are more akin to Ork 'Ard Boyz.which any ork player will surely attest are solid choices in any ork list.

Anyone care to prove me wrong? And not base it just entirely on theory hammer work out the maths and state your actual play experience where hopefully you didn't go sending them face first into a dreadnought and then crying because they got wiped out.

No any Ock player dose not think 'Ard Boyz are a saoild choose, as I never found a reason to add them to any of my Ork list. Just becouse it looks good on paper, dosen't mean they are, or make them fit well in a army.

But, I do think Flayed Ones are now better then they were or are giving credit for.

- You are not the only Ork player around. 'Ard Boyz are still good and used by many.

Sasori wrote:

1. http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/?showtopic=43446

That's a dedicated Ork site. Ask there if the 'Ard Boyz are a good choice.

Where exactly are you not seeing ard boyz being taken often?? Perhaps coudl this be because of the theme of the list? or the meta in your area? Because I see ard boyz often. And even here on dakka people have recommended them to me before i started using them and seeing their value.

Perhaps, I just don't ever see them taken in my Local Meta.

DCA are entirely different because they are not meant to be aimed at the same target and the flayed ones are much more survivable than a 5++

What can you Aim FO at, that DCA won't be more effective at killing?

The Ard Boyz are the closest thing to a unit of Flayed Ones stat wise and in utility.

Wraiths wont kill a mob of Ork Boyz, Flayed Ones will. Thats why you use Flayed Ones, they work perfectly against everything you'd aimed Ard Boyz against. Other standard cc units or units where you need weight of dice to kill.

Wraiths CAN Kill an Ork Mob, since they will almost always be getting the charge, and it's unlikely that every Boy in the Mob can hit. A few whipcoils causing a chunk of the boyz to go after the wraiths hurt as well. Wraiths will cause an Average of 10 wounds to the boyz squad, that's 1/3rd right there. Assuming they are equipped with Shootas and I'm counting the 20 remaining all getting hits(Which is very unlikely) they will cause 2 unsaved wounds to the Wraiths. That's only one wraith possibly even less depending on if they took some different equipment for minor wound allocation, and the Boyz are now taking 7-8 fearless saves, so another 6-7 Boyz are dead.

Wraiths are not the Optimal thing to throw at Boyz squad, but it can be done and they can come out on top.

5 Flayed Ones will hurt a standard 5 man terminator unit with thunderhammers. Wraiths wont even dent it for the same point cost.

They Kill one, then are soundly destroyed. So the Terminators still come out on top Points wise.

20 attacks from FO = 5 wounds on anything WS 4/T4
compared to 8 rending attacks from 2 wraiths that that only do 4 hits, maybe 1 rend and 3 wounds vs WS4/T4

Which amounts to 2 dead MEQs, while the 5 wounds from the Flayed ones amounts to 1.75 unsaved wounds. The Wraiths are also going first since most people will take whipcoils on them. This makes a huge difference.

This difference becomes greater as the numbers increase. But again people just need to practice more and learn which things to target with their flayed ones and they'll get the same results I'm getting when I play mine. Which is very similar and usually better than the ones I get when I play my orks.

Orks after the initial assault become S3 which seriously hurts them, the Flayed Ones will continue to have 3 attacks at S4 which is a huge plus in a war of attrition.

Orks are likely not going to get swept, unlike the flayed ones. Going second really hurts them, in this.

The initiative is ok because everything in the army is initiative 2 including the wraiths.

Wraiths can take Whipcoils though, which reduces enemies in base contact to I1. Thansk to Wraithflight and whipcoils, they can even assault into cover and go first.

and the 4+ save is GOOD it is not terrible. You just cant act like you are walking around with MEQ. Stop playing them in that way and you'll find more success.

Why would you assume I'm playing them Like a MEQ Army?

Grey Hunters also decimate Orks, which is why I point out to you that you need to choose your targets wisely. It woudl be different if it was the case that Wyches, Grey Hunters, Blood Angels and everything else that excels at CC was only kicking the Flayed One's ass and not everything else as well.

But this is across the board the same for every army. Even souped up Tyranid gurants with furious charge and toxin sacs will take a beating from grey hunters and all other cc specialised units.

This does not mean that Flayed Ones suck. It just means you are pitting them against stuff that anything else would also lose again.

When most of things you run into, are some flavor of Marines, you should be taking that account into most of your lists. I run into a Lot of Space Wolves, Grey Knights, and Blood angels Armies, a lot more so than I do Orks or anything that the flayed ones are more effective against. They are by far the most commonly played armies, and the ones that should be taken into account the most when building a TAC list.

Also, It's not like I'm always given the choice of what I want to fight, considering all of those armies are much more maneuverable than Flayed ones are.

1. Toss DCA at an Ork Mob or toss it infront of heavy fire from the common place AP 5 weaponry and see how survivable they are. Flayed Ones will wither the fire and stay strong for the assault wether they charge or get charged. Again the comparison is not made against DCA they are not the closest thing to resemble Flayed Ones. As you are saying yourself DCA are point for point on paper one of the best cc units in the game. So why are you so hell bent on comparing them to flayed ones which ive said should NOT be thrown against elite cc units and should instead go for the standard cc targets.

2.Your wraith example is ridiculous man, first of all you are conveniently declaring that those boys are shootas when the most common type ork boy used is choppa/slugga. But no you want to protect yourself from those extra 20 attacks i guess...how is that a fair comparison? This is the same thing that you are doing with bringing up the DCA into the argument you are trying to make your argument to your convenience. Why dont you just start arguing that flayed ones can't kill a dreadnought and save ourselves the trouble.

If you want a fair comparison lets put 6 wraiths which is 210 pts versus a mob of 30 boys which is more or less the same point cost with a nob with PK.

Wratihs get 24 attacks, 12 hits, 10 wounds 2 of which are rending. Orks make 1 save and allocate another to the Nob. Thus only 8 boyz die.

Now let's see those wraiths take a beating from 21 boyz and 1 Nob with PK.
63 attacks, 31 hits , 10.5 wounds = 3.5 unsaved, basically 2 dead wraiths

3 PKs attacks, 1.5 hit, 1.25 wound = 1 instant killed wraith

Half the wraiths gone over half of the Orks still there, PK still there. You no longer have charge advantage. Even with combat resolution orks will hold and you will lose next round.

Against your shoota example those shootas have 18" range same as your assault range with jump infantry. They dont need to get close they can just wait for you to get within 24" then those wraiths take 60 shootas shots to the face before they ever get any funny ideas of assaulting. You cant conveniently discount that if you want to make the shoota boys the subject of your example.

60 shots = 10 wounds = 3.33 unsaved wounds potentially 2 dead wraiths before you get to charge in.

3. The terminators would also kill the wraiths for the same point cost actually the wraiths are 5 pts more expensive and did less damage to the terminators than the flayed ones. Which is the better value??

4. Which coils increase the cost of wraiths you do realize that right? So this only makes the flayed ones more effecticient as they still do damage even if they arent hitting first. 6 wratihs with whip coils vs 20 flayed ones versus something like a thunder hammer terminator or an ork mob the flayed ones will come out on top every time. Number of attacks outweight rending

5. Yes flayed ones are prone to die to sweeping advance if they are fighting something that does way more damage than they can dish back. This is true and this is exactly why i keep insisting on NOT sending them out to their certain doom.

6. Because you keep complaining about the 4+ save which is a good save as if 3+ is the ONLY good save to have. I play a lot of armies that rely on that 4+ save and let me tell you it WORKS in and out of combat. Power Armour is not the end all saving throw in 40k.

7. I completely agree with you here that the tournametn setting is full of MEQs and that your local area may also be full of armies against which flayed ones would not do well against but this does not make them a bad option. Do you at least agree after this whole breakdown that we've beent hrough that upon close inspection the flayed ones are at the very least a decent choice if not a solid one.

I dont consider them a must-have like i would a cryptek court but I definetly always get some use out of them when aimed at proper targets they work wonders and they out CC other standard cc units like Orks and vanilla marines hell even black templar and terminators with a lot of hammers/fists need fear a mob of flayed ones. point for point flayed ones are better

If i could only take 1 list to a tourny, it would have wraiths over flayed ones. Wraiths just have the flexibility to do a better job at really... anything. Whether you're going against a heavy mech list - they can pop it, going against power weapons - they can take the hits, going against hordes - while not ideal, will likely survive and wound a lot more than the flayed ones will.

I just don't see the purpose of taking flayed ones.

You are also forgetting, 3rd edition codex, flayed ones were I4. That put them par with marines and striking at the same time. At a tournament you will face a lot of Grey knights, and tell me how good you will feel facing off even against 5 purifiers and after their cleansing flame , which kills about 5 of your 20 flayed ones, they then strike first - 10 attacks (lets not give anybody bonuses for assaulting so it's "even ground" for combat) , 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, so you lose 2-3 more and you get no armor save since they are power weapons. That puts you at 8 casualties. You have 12 flayed ones left, that is 36 attacks - half will hit - 18, half will wound - 9. After their saves (3+) you will kill 2-3 of them. Well you just failed combat by 5 , think you can pass that leadership roll of 5? Doubtful, so your unit of flayed ones are now swept.

Your 300 point , 20 model unit of flayed ones was killed by a 120 point, 5 model unit of grey knights.

Lets look at it more realistically too - flayed ones deep strike, purifiers move up - shoot 10 shots, 7 shots hit, w/ psybolt ammo 5 wounds are made , 2 flayed ones die, then the purifiers get their assault off giving them the +1 attacks to the above example, creating a much more violent onslaught and changing that 2-3 purifiers dead down to 1-2.

Sorry, for an elite slot, their price, and their statline, they ARE a terrible unit all around. I'm angry about it, but i'm not going to try and justify it. I have 20x the old models and I wish I could use them, but likely never will. If they kept their I4... or even give them I3, i'd be happy since I could give them furious charge with the Nemesor.

Akaiyou wrote:

Noir wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:

Orks make their living off dice saturation because on their own they suck, but in large numbers they work solidly. The new Flayed Ones are more akin to Ork 'Ard Boyz.which any ork player will surely attest are solid choices in any ork list.

Anyone care to prove me wrong? And not base it just entirely on theory hammer work out the maths and state your actual play experience where hopefully you didn't go sending them face first into a dreadnought and then crying because they got wiped out.

No any Ock player dose not think 'Ard Boyz are a saoild choose, as I never found a reason to add them to any of my Ork list. Just becouse it looks good on paper, dosen't mean they are, or make them fit well in a army.

But, I do think Flayed Ones are now better then they were or are giving credit for.

- You are not the only Ork player around. 'Ard Boyz are still good and used by many.

Yes, but I am any Ork player, and don't agree the a soild choose. Like you clamed.

Akaiyou wrote:'Ard Boyz are still good and used by many.

...You are aware that the 'Ard Boyz Tournament isn't just for people who use the 'Ard Boyz models, right?

Because confusion like that is the only explanation for your statement.

Anyways.

Flayed Ones are garbage. They very well may be better than they were in the old codex, though. Because Flayed Ones were garbage in the old codex, too.

Poop is poop, no matter what its consistency.

Cryage wrote:If i could only take 1 list to a tourny, it would have wraiths over flayed ones. Wraiths just have the flexibility to do a better job at really... anything. Whether you're going against a heavy mech list - they can pop it, going against power weapons - they can take the hits, going against hordes - while not ideal, will likely survive and wound a lot more than the flayed ones will.

I just don't see the purpose of taking flayed ones.

You are also forgetting, 3rd edition codex, flayed ones were I4. That put them par with marines and striking at the same time. At a tournament you will face a lot of Grey knights, and tell me how good you will feel facing off even against 5 purifiers and after their cleansing flame , which kills about 5 of your 20 flayed ones, they then strike first - 10 attacks (lets not give anybody bonuses for assaulting so it's "even ground" for combat) , 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, so you lose 2-3 more and you get no armor save since they are power weapons. That puts you at 8 casualties. You have 12 flayed ones left, that is 36 attacks - half will hit - 18, half will wound - 9. After their saves (3+) you will kill 2-3 of them. Well you just failed combat by 5 , think you can pass that leadership roll of 5? Doubtful, so your unit of flayed ones are now swept.

Your 300 point , 20 model unit of flayed ones was killed by a 120 point, 5 model unit of grey knights.

Lets look at it more realistically too - flayed ones deep strike, purifiers move up - shoot 10 shots, 7 shots hit, w/ psybolt ammo 5 wounds are made , 2 flayed ones die, then the purifiers get their assault off giving them the +1 attacks to the above example, creating a much more violent onslaught and changing that 2-3 purifiers dead down to 1-2.

Sorry, for an elite slot, their price, and their statline, they ARE a terrible unit all around. I'm angry about it, but i'm not going to try and justify it. I have 20x the old models and I wish I could use them, but likely never will. If they kept their I4... or even give them I3, i'd be happy since I could give them furious charge with the Nemesor.

I'm not arguing flayed ones over wraiths here, I was not the one to bring that comparison to the table. I also agree wraiths are great but they arent great against 'everything' there's clearly stuff out there that the FOs are better against than wraiths and vice versa. The purifiers in your example being one of them.

20 flayed ones are just over 250 pts not 300.
6 wraiths with coils are closer to 300 pts than FOs.

And once again you may as well say 'what if the FOs assault a dreadnought how will they win?' with that argument pitting them against purifiers. Lets pit the wraiths against a swarmlord and see what happens...get my point? Ive been saing this for a long time now please lets stop with the odd match ups the game is like rock paper scissors to a degree...you can't expect paper to beat scissors

6 wraiths with a reasonable amount of upgrades cost around the same as, or a bit less than, 20 flayed ones.

I don't think FOs are terrible, but they are an assault unit which has some bad matchups, and they don't have any kind of mobility upgrade, which makes it hard for them to pick their fights.

Moderator note:
People need to be a bit more polite in here. Any further rude posts in this thread will result in suspensions.

Mannahnin wrote:6 wraiths with a reasonable amount of upgrades cost around the same as, or a bit less than, 20 flayed ones.

I don't think FOs are terrible, but they are an assault unit which has some bad matchups, and they don't have any kind of mobility upgrade, which makes it hard for them to pick their fights.

And they don't have Stubborn/Fearless... and are I2... aka sweep-bait.

Mannahnin wrote:6 wraiths with a reasonable amount of upgrades cost around the same as, or a bit less than, 20 flayed ones.

I don't think FOs are terrible, but they are an assault unit which has some bad matchups, and they don't have any kind of mobility upgrade, which makes it hard for them to pick their fights.

Moderator note:
People need to be a bit more polite in here. Any further rude posts in this thread will result in suspensions.

I was sure that my last post was 'polite'
but fair enough.

And the flayed ones do have mobility

Infiltrate and deep strike, why do people discount these??? these are assets not liabilities.
Ork Kommandos only get infiltrate and they are good to use.

Outflanking is one of the great new things of 5th edition that makes cc units better and the flayed ones come with it standard. Even if you just infitlrate them 18" away from the enemy that's 1 turn of shooting that you saved urself from.

Again i cant stress this enough im NOT trying to compare FOs to Wraiths. I didn't start that argument nor was it the intention of the thread. as i keep saying a better comparison is made against 'ard boyz which are good solid units thus the FOs which are clearly better at 3 pts pricier cant be so terrible either.

Does that logic make sense to anyone?

Necrons have ALWAYS been sweep bait from the start.

Akaiyou wrote:

And the flayed ones do have mobility

Infiltrate and deep strike, why do people discount these??? these are assets not liabilities.
Ork Kommandos only get infiltrate and they are good to use.

I pretty sure its the 2 Burnaz and PK combo that make the Ork Kommandos. I know its the main reason I choose them in some list.

The problem with them is that they have no way to get the charge reliably.They'll usually get charged by a dedicated assault unit that will defeat, and then sweep them without taking very much damage in return.

Compared to 'ard boyz, they have plenty of attacks, but unlike boyz they aren't fearless that critical first round or two of combat, don't have a PK to pick up an important wound or two towards resolution, and suffer much, much worse from attrition.

Compared to genestealer blocks (A very similarly priced unit) work because if they are assaulted they're I6 allowing them to do damage before getting hit, and on the charge they have rending and WS6 resulting in a similar number of hits (More attacks vs higher WS) but wounds that ignore armor saves.

Just throwing it out there but, honestly what decent player would throw an initiative 2 4+ armour 5-20 model unit of flayed ones against a full or decent strength mob of ork boyz when they could shoot a large majority with tesla and blast weapons and wither them down severely before spraying them with smaller arms fire?

I agree that they look better on paper than on the board, but they are a decent unit I find against small, shooty squads like Loota's or marine scouts, using deep strike to get close, but against larger units they seem to take a lot of casualties and quickly lose too much strength for there original purpose, which obviously is being a decent CC unit that can compete with other CC units.

I'd say that they have a place in an almost full CC Necron army, but I have never seen one of those and I doubt that I will.

I think the problem with Flayed Ones is you are looking at them in a vacuum.

The real question is, what ROLE do FO play in your army? Why exactly are you taking them. They are a strange unit because they really do not fulfill a useful purpose in a Necron army. They do not help them deal with armor, they do not help them deal with hordes....

So what do they do? Maybe they could Infiltrate into cover and create a wall of bodies between your troops and the enemy, but Scarabs/Wraiths can do that better. The comparison to those units is natural because Flayed Ones seem to want to try to do their job, but they really cannot...

That is my impression of them at least, so convince me how they fit better than those units...

IXBEHEMOTHXI wrote:Just throwing it out there but, honestly what decent player would throw an initiative 2 4+ armour 5-20 model unit of flayed ones against a full or decent strength mob of ork boyz when they could shoot a large majority with tesla and blast weapons and wither them down severely before spraying them with smaller arms fire?

I agree that they look better on paper than on the board, but they are a decent unit I find against small, shooty squads like Loota's or marine scouts, using deep strike to get close, but against larger units they seem to take a lot of casualties and quickly lose too much strength for there original purpose, which obviously is being a decent CC unit that can compete with other CC units.

I'd say that they have a place in an almost full CC Necron army, but I have never seen one of those and I doubt that I will.

calypso2ts wrote:I think the problem with Flayed Ones is you are looking at them in a vacuum.

The real question is, what ROLE do FO play in your army? Why exactly are you taking them. They are a strange unit because they really do not fulfill a useful purpose in a Necron army. They do not help them deal with armor, they do not help them deal with hordes....

So what do they do? Maybe they could Infiltrate into cover and create a wall of bodies between your troops and the enemy, but Scarabs/Wraiths can do that better. The comparison to those units is natural because Flayed Ones seem to want to try to do their job, but they really cannot...

That is my impression of them at least, so convince me how they fit better than those units...

I've thrown a decent 20 man unit of Flayed Ones against Ork boyz and mopped the floor with them.

Orks dont do enough damage against T4 when they are S3. Orks get their waagh granting them fleet which is great burt its only for one turn most Ork players arent going to just use it to assault one unit. So yeah I was able to get the charge and we hit simo

even when you math hammer it you can see how the FOs will win that match up

Orks
87 attacks
43.5 hits
14.5 wounds
7.25 downed FOs (that get RP rolls later on)

FOs
80 attacks
40 hits
20 wounds
16.66 dead orks

PK
3 attacks
1.5 hits
1.25 wounds


Total 8.5 dead FOs vs 16.66 dead Orks

In my game the PK wiffed and I rolled less than average getting like 14 or 15 kills only still won combat they took extra wounds from no retreat and all died during next round of combat protected my FOs for a turn of shooting i had likr 4 of them come back via RP and the consolidation move helped me reaching my next target

Their role is good CHEAP cc support.in an army that's seriously lacking in that department.

Lychguard for example are as expensive as terminators and hardly as survivable as TH/SS termies while suffering from all the same lack of mobility problems that plague the FOs

IMO

FOs > Lychguard

if you had to face another necron player

The Flayed Ones would beat out the Lychguard in CC
They would even out against the Wraiths in CC (assuming wraiths get hte assault of course)
decked out max wraiths would only get 2 rending wounds and 4 unsaved wounds. 6 dead FOs with 14 left to retaliate and cause 3.5 unsaved wounds to the wraiths the morale check is good enough to stay in combat.
The FOs will also defeat scarabs on a 1 on 1 even with the scarabs charge

There's plenty units out there that the FOs will do well against even if they have to take the charge

I am not debating whether or not 300 points in Flayed Ones can kill 180 points in Orks. I am asking what role they play in the army.

I am sure they can swamp over Lychguard or scarabs or wraiths.

What Wraiths can do is rip apart armor, they are fast and have an annoying 3++ to keep them alive. They can also jump over to cleanup what is left from shooting and utilize cover to stay out of LoS.

Scarabs can rip apart vehicles, they are REALLY fast with a12" charge and Fleet. They can also tie up and tarpit enemy shooting/assault elements to prevent them from taking down the Necron firebase. They also have nice synergy with Spiders of course.

Both units are notable for their speed and their ability to take down armor, while tarpitting dedicated assault units or eliminating other units.

I am not sure what Flayed Ones do. They can Outflank, but they are awful slow or they could Infiltrate. In the former case they have a 1/3 chance to end up on the wrong side. In the latter they are relatively unsupported.

So how exactly do they make a Necron army better that differentiates them in a meaningful manner from these other units?

calypso2ts wrote:I am not debating whether or not 300 points in Flayed Ones can kill 180 points in Orks. I am asking what role they play in the army.

I am sure they can swamp over Lychguard or scarabs or wraiths.

What Wraiths can do is rip apart armor, they are fast and have an annoying 3++ to keep them alive. They can also jump over to cleanup what is left from shooting and utilize cover to stay out of LoS.

Scarabs can rip apart vehicles, they are REALLY fast with a12" charge and Fleet. They can also tie up and tarpit enemy shooting/assault elements to prevent them from taking down the Necron firebase. They also have nice synergy with Spiders of course.

Both units are notable for their speed and their ability to take down armor, while tarpitting dedicated assault units or eliminating other units.

I am not sure what Flayed Ones do. They can Outflank, but they are awful slow or they could Infiltrate. In the former case they have a 1/3 chance to end up on the wrong side. In the latter they are relatively unsupported.

So how exactly do they make a Necron army better that differentiates them in a meaningful manner from these other units?

You can always place terrain that BLOS near the edges and infitlrate into it within 12" of your opponent that IS an option.
Agreed on wraiths wholeheartedly
Scarabs however are beasts....beasts are faster yes but they still move like normal infantry and these guys are vulnerable to blasts with a 5+ save and always have to footslog their way across the board they can be easily taken out if you dont bring them in great numbers, they just dont live as long as flayed ones. and they have no RP

i already told you what the role for FO is, good cheap reliable counter assault unit.

counter assault units used to be popular and in many lists they still are they give you a tactical flexbility that wraiths and scarabs dont have through all the special rules.

Scarabs are single purpose units really, Lychguard too, wraiths hare more uses but they are mostly used as a forward assault unit charging up ahead. You can have a unit of warriors holding an objectives protected by a wall of FOs surrounding them or nearby for any would be assaulters or outflankers and they are sure to get a nasty surprise given how understimated the FOs are.

The loss of the SV and Init hurt a lot. The increased Attacks and reduced point costs are great, but I'm not sure it's quite enough.

I think FOs suffer in the comparison to Scarabs and Wraiths due to those both being faster and able to reliably take on both vehicles and non-vehicle units. The closest units we've been able to compare FOs to are all ones with some kind of cheap or free available speed. Trukks or Battlewagons for Ard Boyz. Waaagh for Kommandos. Etc.

To get real use out of FOs I agree that you need to find a way to get some synergy with the rest of your army. They do throw out a ton of attacks for the points, and match up favorably against some elite units, like hammernators. I think they're potentially a good candidate to combo with a warscythe/mindshackle lord. It's a substantial amount of points, but it's got a ton of wounds and attacks and a large footprint to block off a section of the table around which your lighter, more fragile shooting units can maneuver.

Mannahnin wrote:The loss of the SV and Init hurt a lot. The increased Attacks and reduced point costs are great, but I'm not sure it's quite enough.

I think FOs suffer in the comparison to Scarabs and Wraiths due to those both being faster and able to reliably take on both vehicles and non-vehicle units. The closest units we've been able to compare FOs to are all ones with some kind of cheap or free available speed. Trukks or Battlewagons for Ard Boyz. Waaagh for Kommandos. Etc.

To get real use out of FOs I agree that you need to find a way to get some synergy with the rest of your army. They do throw out a ton of attacks for the points, and match up favorably against some elite units, like hammernators. I think they're potentially a good candidate to combo with a warscythe/mindshackle lord. It's a substantial amount of points, but it's got a ton of wounds and attacks and a large footprint to block off a section of the table around which your lighter, more fragile shooting units can maneuver.

It would have to be an Overlord, as Royal Court members cannot join Flayed One units.

Perhaps I've been a bit too Critical of Flayed ones, but I really have trouble fitting them into any of my lists. They really just don't mesh well with my Army, and I feel I can get a better use for the points in multi-purpose units like Wraiths and Scarabs.

I love both of those units too. But I do see the Wraiths as potentially being vulnerable to certain units which the FOs match up a bit better against. Might be able to use them to complement each other. I'd like to see them work.

I think Flayed Ones are another unit that will benefit from 6th Edition with the rumored deepstrike rules. My initial thought is that Flayed Ones currently suffer from the fact that they fill a role that Necrons already have covered from their troops (and other FOC sections)--anti-infantry. I would much rather spend points to get more Warriors or Immortals that can hurt the enemy at range and can score. But that's just my opinion. If they were super awesome at anti-infantry that would be one thing, but they really aren't that much better than what the other units in the codex can do.

Akaiyou wrote:
I'm not arguing flayed ones over wraiths here, I was not the one to bring that comparison to the table. I also agree wraiths are great but they arent great against 'everything' there's clearly stuff out there that the FOs are better against than wraiths and vice versa. The purifiers in your example being one of them.

20 flayed ones are just over 250 pts not 300.
6 wraiths with coils are closer to 300 pts than FOs.

My bad there, mis-read "15 additional flayed ones" and thought they were 15 points each... even at 260 points for 20 they aren't worth it. my bad there!

And once again you may as well say 'what if the FOs assault a dreadnought how will they win?' with that argument pitting them against purifiers.

I mentioned nothing about shooting pitting them against a dreadnought, that's suicide obviously. But a FULLY stacked elite slot vs a bare minimum elite slot? Come on man, even you have to admit they should stand somewhat of a chance since they still cost twice the price!