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Hey everybody, I've been playtesting some new rules for Frag Grenades recently as I feel like they should be more of an extra weapon than a piece of wargear that only gets used occasionally.

Any unit that has the option of taking frag grenades may still take them, but they operate under the following rules. For +20 points, the unit may be equipped with frag grenades, regardless of unit size. During the Shooting Phase, the unit may nominate one of its members to throw a frag grenade at the enemy. Frag grenades may be thrown up to 24” in any direction using the guess rules and they scatter as with other ordnance. They use the large blast template and inflict one Strength 4 hit at AP5 on any model under the template. Frag grenades do not require line of sight, but the model that throws them may not use any other weapons in the same Shooting Phase. They may assault as normal. Note that the rest of the unit is free to shoot enemy units, even if the frag grenade is thrown in a different direction.

Frag grenades may also be used in close combat as a last resort. Assuming the unit equipped with frag grenades still has one model left, he may choose to forgo his normal attacks and drop a frag grenade at his feet. Before doing this, he must pass a Leadership Test. If he fails, he is frozen in fear and may not perform any attacks. If he passes, he is killed instantly with the large blast marker centered over him. Hits are then resolved as they normally would be (including against friendly models).

Thanks for reading and I look forward to your comments!

Range is a bit too far to be thrown

Why not some kind of multiplier based on the models STR. One unit being able to split fire doesn't work IMO.

Well any grenade launcher that uses frag grenades has them at Str 3, AP 6 small blast. I would make them the same, except thrown grenades have a Range of 6" and Assault 1.

Krak Grenades would be Str 6, AP 4 and assault 1.

Meltabombs would be Str 8, AP 2 and roll 2D6 for Armour Pen.

My point is, it shouldn't be a flat distance. A SM should throw farther than a basic guardsman. i.e. STRx2, just like 2nd edition.

Deadshot wrote:Well any grenade launcher that uses frag grenades has them at Str 3, AP 6 small blast. I would make them the same, except thrown grenades have a Range of 6" and Assault 1.

Krak Grenades would be Str 6, AP 4 and assault 1.

Meltabombs would be Str 8, AP 2 and roll 2D6 for Armour Pen.

Meltabombs wouldn't do any damage if thrown. They need to be clamped to the surface of their target to do damage, presumably because they're shaped charges of some sort, or just because melta weapons have short range.

Same as other grenades. All the need is a detonate on impact setting.

Have any of you actually thrown hand grenades? I have, have to each year to be qualified. Anyway, I have seen guys who look like a pasta noodle and guys who look like gorillas throw the same distance. So, the argument of a SM being able to throw farther than a guardsman is pointless. And, how can a guardsman throw as far as the launcher? I go with the 6" range, but, scatter 1D6. Same strength and AP as normal frag and krak grenades.

The argument of SM being able to throw further is far from pointless. Was the guy who looked like a gorilla a 7ft tall super-soldier engineered from the genetic material of the sons of someone who is on par with Gods?

Comparing one human to a slightly stronger-looking human does not nearly begin to reach the comparison between a human and a Space Marine.

martin74 wrote:Have any of you actually thrown hand grenades? I have, have to each year to be qualified. Anyway, I have seen guys who look like a pasta noodle and guys who look like gorillas throw the same distance. So, the argument of a SM being able to throw farther than a guardsman is pointless. And, how can a guardsman throw as far as the launcher? I go with the 6" range, but, scatter 1D6. Same strength and AP as normal frag and krak grenades.

A power armored genetically enhanced super human throws as far as a basis guardsman. Do you really believe that?

Not to mention better training. They train for years as Neophytes. Guardsmen are usually dead by the first battle. No need for awesome training if they die straight off.

Wow, you guys are way to serious for you own good. Lets just say, a normal guardsman, with very little gear to effect his throw. True, a SM is genetically stronger (must be the in-breeding), but, wearing that power armor is bulky and does cause a problem with the natural throwing motion.

The main point is, the OP has given the SM or guard trooper the ability to throw as far as a grenade launcher. 12 years in the Army and I have yet to see anyone throw as far as a M203 or M19. Just doesn't happen.

Wow, you guys are way to serious for you own good.

If it's okay with you, i'll be the judge of that thanks, and I judge that I was simply pointing out a large flaw in your logic.

True, a SM is genetically stronger ... but, wearing that power armor is bulky and does cause a problem with the natural throwing motion.

I assume you have evidence to back this up?

What about Arjac Rockfist who, in Terminator armour, is capable of accurately throwing a Thunder Hammer 6" in game terms, which could be pretty damn far in actuality?

TDA is far more restricting than PA, but if he can throw a weapon that is heavy enough to force even a Space Marine to use two-hands for a normal attack, how can PA possibly be too restricting to throw something a tiny fraction of the size and weight more or less the same distance?

Okay guy, as I can see your logic is purely based in the world of fantasy. So, do you have evidence that power armor in the real world would not hinder your throw, do you have power armor in hanging in your closet right next to your spiderman under wear? Oh sorry, you probably have some crazy ultramarine underwear, my mistake.

However, I have thrown grenades often enough. So, knowing that wearing body army, the kind that saves lives, hinders the throwing motion. I can throw a grenade at least 5 to ten meters further without it on. Further more, even with the wind helping me (not that it does), I could never throw as far as a grenade launcher.

Did I say they'd be able to throw as far as a grenade launcher? Because i'm pretty (see: 100%) sure I did not.

But anyway, since you're playing out the 'real world' card, I am obligated to remind you that we are working on a proposed rule for a sci-fi game with psychic powers, alien bugs and space elves.

You still have not provided evidence to show that PA hinders a Space Marine's throw enough to make it unrecognisable from a Guardsman's throw, however, so I would appreciate it if you answered that question before trying to come up with any more smart remarks, mmmk?

I was under the impression that power armour was designed to augment the users strength, unlike body armour of the modern day where its design to just keep people alive.

With that in mind, and the fact that as mentioned its a 7ft genetically engineered super soldier I would expect Marines to be able to throw further than Guardsmen/Eldar

martin74 wrote:Okay guy, as I can see your logic is purely based in the world of fantasy. So, do you have evidence that power armor in the real world would not hinder your throw, do you have power armor in hanging in your closet right next to your spiderman under wear? Oh sorry, you probably have some crazy ultramarine underwear, my mistake.

However, I have thrown grenades often enough. So, knowing that wearing body army, the kind that saves lives, hinders the throwing motion. I can throw a grenade at least 5 to ten meters further without it on. Further more, even with the wind helping me (not that it does), I could never throw as far as a grenade launcher.

Martin, seriously consider your words before you start insulting. Remember dakka rule #1. Nobody has been nasty to you.

Now don't present your opinions unless your considering the fantasy of it. News flash, we are discussing a fantasy world about toy soldiers.

Powered armour... the fantasy type. The one with a self contained power source in the backpack and stabilization vents due to the weight, should augment strength more than flak armor.

However, I agree that the OP shouldn't think a grenade should be thrown as far as a launcher sends it out.

Justification that PA does not hinder movment is the Black Carapace. It links up with the suit to enhance and replicate the movemenrs of the wearer.

Wow thanks for the comments guys. I didn't realize this would produce such a lively discussion!

It seems like most people agree that the range should be shortened, which I suppose is fair. I like the idea of using strength to determine range, so maybe S3 and less can throw 12" and S4 and higher throw 18"? I would think that the step up from S3 to S4 should, power armor or not, provide a range boost for the throw. What do you guys think of the points cost? Should it be raised/lowered? Thanks again for your comments!

Yeah, so a Marine at Str 4 can throw his Frag Grenade 18", yet a Str 9 Canifex can do the same with frag spines? Uh-uh, try again.

I would suggest Range= Str X2.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with Tyranids (I had to look up what Frag Spines were!). But I see your point that something as strong as a Carnifex could throw farther than a Marine. At the same time, these rules are for Frag Grenades, so I was looking more for if people thought they were fair within their points cost for models that can be equipped with Frags (Guardsmen, Storm Troopers, Inquisitors, Chaos Marines, etc.)

STR x 2

Just get the necromunda book... it's free now, and it has rules for thrown grenades. I believe it does use StrX2 as the formula for throwing them.