Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've always really liked the idea of IG stormtroopers. I personally think the elite spec ops type unit they are made out to be in the fluff is pretty cool. But then you look at their rules entry...and they are pretty lackluster imho.

I don't play IG so I'm speaking strictly from textbook knowledge here, but it seems to me that with their AP3 hotshots and option for 3 plasma weapons they are best suited as MEQ killers. I suppose with their special DS rule they can be decent at taking out vehicles, but even then they only have two melta shots available to the squad which isn't terribly reassuring.

So to my question: What are stormtroopers the best suited for? Can they be justified in a competitive list?

Two BS4 melta shots, on a platform which can re-roll scatter when deep-striking, is pretty darn nice.

With plasma and hotshots, as you've said, they can do pretty well against marines. Particularly useful against small, isolated squads, like maybe Long Fangs or BA Devs. Although their value against those is degraded by the fact that those units are usually in cover.

As long as you realise that you cant compare them to vets, because they fill a seperate rolls, then they are good, especially if you run a static gunline, which if you believe dakka and bols, no one does. Thr problem is that they compete with Pbs for slots, and vets for points.

Melta DS is usually the way to go, sorry for sounding like a broken record

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:As long as you realise that you cant compare them to vets, because they fill a seperate rolls

So what are the two roles?

snake wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:As long as you realise that you cant compare them to vets, because they fill a seperate rolls

So what are the two roles?

Veterans take objectives and en-masse present a wall of death around which enemy vehicles dare not enter.
Stormtroopers deep strike behind far away enemy tanks and blow them, then are almost always killed on the next turn (though since it's usually far away from anti-infantry, the enemy usually has to use anti-tank to take them out, which is far better than having them shoot at your tanks).

Forget the hotshot lasguns, STs are about deployment options. Five stormtroopers with two meltas a chimera can do these things really successfully:

1. Deepstrike with airborne assault, landing behind the vehicle and nearly always killing it. Dreads and predators are my personal favorite targets. Their chimera can be seconded to a SWS or other squad that needs a transport.

2. If you're going first and expect a good target, deploy and use scout move + turn 1 move to get within melta range of a prime target before it's had a chance to do anything. It's a suicide mission, but stranding a landraiderfull of terminators in their deployment zone turn 1 can be worth it.

3. Outflank in the chimera to kill or contest something valuable that's near the table edge. Vehicles or small squads with no HtH ability--even though they're only str3, Stormtroopers get LP&CCW attacks in assault. You can take out a unit of grots or even longfangs.

The advantage of stormtroopers over meltavets for roughly the same cost is that stormtroopers can do any of these missions, based on your opponent's army and the situation, and you get to decide at the start of the game what would be most valuable for you in that situation.

You pay the premium for flexibility that vets don't have.

Mannahnin wrote:Two BS4 melta shots, on a platform which can re-roll scatter when deep-striking... With plasma and hotshots, as you've said, they can do pretty well against marines.

This.

snake wrote:So what are the two roles?

...which is entirely different than vets. Vets can't deepstrike, much less with airborne assault, so they don't deploy or move like vets, which are likely starting out on the field in a can. They also don't get Ap3 small arms, free krak grenades, or the ability to resist bolters with carapace (and be not immediately as horrible in close combat), which means that vets are basically entirely judged by their special weapons. That and vets can take a heavy weapon.

Vets are a scoring unit that is judged by how much firepower it puts out. Stormies are judged by their ability to show up out of nowhere and handle any particular crisis with relative ease. Really, you should think of stormies as the imperial guard version of obliterators (yeah, the comparison is real thin, but you get my point), while vets are more like a tac squad in how you play with them.

Well, perhaps turning the thread towards the current meta (or maybe I just read too many battle reports here on Dakka!), what role can Stormtroopers fill against Wraithwing-Scarab Farm lists or Draigowing lists?

For Wraithwing-Scarab Farm, all I can really think of is a DS-ing threat to temporarily destroy/disrupt control of a home objective by MSUs of Warriors, but that's it....

Against a Draigowing, though, besides just shooting out of a Chimera with the rest of the army, is there really anything special that they add against that kind of Grey Knights list?

slice of toast wrote:Against a Draigowing, though, besides just shooting out of a Chimera with the rest of the army, is there really anything special that they add against that kind of Grey Knights list?

They can handle the what is likely very few things other than a draigo deathstar while the rest of your army deals with the draigo deathstar. Vets have to go THROUGH draigo, and have to arrive with enough firepower to continue to be useful. Stormies on the other hand arrive BEHIND draigo without him being able to do a darn thing about it.

My Kasrkins have saved my more than once; they have been my heroic last stand more than once and made my opponent pay for every inch in blood. Namely a Predator, tactical, assault, a Sternguard and a whirlwinds blood/motor oil

The Crusader wrote:My Kasrkins have saved my more than once; they have been my heroic last stand more than once and made my opponent pay for every inch in blood. Namely a Predator, tactical, assault and a whirlwinds blood/motor oil

Care to share how they were equipped, tasked, and actually used when they saved said ?

They are not drop pods, deepstriking will neither get you close enough or soon enough or reliably enough to work.

Scouting in chimeras can be fun to add. Especially with creed, or with a static back line the outflank move can be important.

Infiltrate is quite useful for infantry lists. They can direct play, they sit in cover and dare tanks to come close, or to deal with them. The aim is to push people towards a killing field. Tanks do not need this expensive role.

Scouting flamer chimeras would be good for the scarabs? Else getting within assault range/rapid fire range probably not a good idea with necrons.
Scouting melta shots especially with let's say Creed scouting a squadron of three nice big tanks should be good against draigo and pals?

Infantry list is full of win against scarabs, yes they can tarpit but essentially the raison d'etre of a list is nullified.
Against Draigo if the infiltrators flush out the units towards lascannon spam surely that can be a huge benefit.

Though how about 10 psykers and Rambo causing large blasts against scarabs, which pretty awesome?
Or 10 psykers reduce a 600 pt unit of paladins to Ld 2, then Rambo causes a couple of models to die, fail their morale and then rambo escourts them off the battlefield?

MFletch wrote:They are not drop pods, deepstriking will neither get you close enough or soon enough or reliably enough to work.

Stormies aren't drop pods. Drop pods are a way for space marines to alpha strike. Stormies are a way for guardsmen to harass and control crises. This doesn't make them bad, though.

Saying that stormies are bad because they're not drop pods is like saying that stormies are bad because they're not trygons.

Stormies are not trygons. Do not deep strike them

Trygons, mycectic spores, drop pods, Blood Angel jump packs, teleporting down on a homer - these things can land you close and safely, great if you need to be melta distance or assault distance to have the desired effect.

Stormtroopers can re-roll their DS scatter. That's about as good as DoA in terms of accuracy. 54% chance of a perfect Hit.

Trygons are an assault unit with Fleet; they can't assault the turn they DS. I would say ST are a much better candidate for DSing than a Trygon.

Flavius really nailed this question with his answers, though.

Take 5 with 2x melta, give them a chimera. Deep strike them and give their chimera to a SWS, or outflank them in the chimera.

MFletch, you are aware that stormtroopers get to reroll their deepstrike dice if they take the "airborne assault" mission rule?

I've had exactly zero mishaps deepstriking stormtroopers--on the reroll if not the first roll--and no trouble getting within half melta range of targets.

An astropath helps them arrive more reliably on turn 2, and helps them arrive on the right side of the table if outflanking. With 2 or more ST units in your army, the astropath is definitely worth the investment.

@ Snake:

10 Kasrkin with Sgt w/ PW, plasma gun and GL. my army had been tabled in turn 4 save a single sniper in the A-hole of beyond. Kasrkin finally arived and wasted the side Av of the whirlwind which wrecked. Sniper is finally killed and the Kasrkin move onto difficult terrain and take a pot-shot with the GL which does zilch save scratch a marines paint. All SMs advance, Tactical marines end inside Rapid fire, killing 2 Kasrkin. Game continues to turn 6. Kasrkin rerturn fire, 14 shots, 10 hit,4 die. Plasma opens up, overheats and vapourises a marine. Kasrkin survives. GL annoys another marine. SM pass LD. Marine player Advances Tac squad and Assault squad next to the Pred which is still facing the opposite direction because of the Sniper, Tac opens fire, 6 BP shots 2 hit (my dice hated him) no wounds he assaults but fails to get a 6. Kasrkin fire on the pred which explodes, consuming 2 Marines out of who somehow manage to fail their Ld and flee 11. Game continues into turn 7 Assault move to within 6" and both squads open up, 12 BP, 7 hit, 5 wound, 3 Kasrkin wasted. 5 Kasrkin left. Both charge, Fluffing their 28 attacks (both SM sgts had PF's) 10 hit of the 24 standard, 4 wound 1 Kasrkin bites the dust. Kasrkin attack, 6 attacks, 4 hit 3 wound, 2 tac SMs die. Kasrkin Sgt swings PW, decapitating another SM. Assault Sgt fails everything whereas the Tac Sgt sucker punches a Kasrkin into orbit. Tac Squad fail Ld, and flee 7" Assault also fail, persued and annihilated (note we weren't sure on whether this should have happened) Karkin consolidate 5" and open up on the Sternguard whom have spent the last 3 turns sprinting to the Kasrkin. Hot shot Pistols claims a Sternguard, GL finaly wastes one and then the Kasrkin squad from the gates of hell, killing the 3 remaining Guard. Game continues into its final turn, seeing the Kasrkin shot by the 4 Remaining SMs reducing the squad to the Rifleman and the Sgt (damnable wound allocation). Being 7" away, the Tacs couldnt assault, so in the final turn, the Kasrkin decided to sell their lives dearly, killing another SM to shooting, proceeding to assault the Tacs, resulting in the death of Kasrkin Sgt, in return for two SM from the rifleman. The PF rather epicly failed with a double 1 to hit. The Sgt was Run down by the final Kasrkin.speaking of which, I need to paint a Medal on him

That is a very epic story Crusader, but I would suggest you try to add a 3rd special weapon to that kasrkin squad, and maybe make the weapons similarly roled. Maybe even upgrade him from a power weapon to power fist for his deeds.

ph34r wrote:That is a very epic story Crusader, but I would suggest you try to add a 3rd special weapon to that kasrkin squad, and maybe make the weapons similarly roled. Maybe even upgrade him from a power weapon to power fist for his deeds.

They can only take 2.

Answering the OP, the best and only real use of a kasrkin/storm trooper is to drop in and melta something to hell. It's a mech heavy environment, and even against nids you can put some serious harm on a tyrant/trygon/etc.

They are also expected to die immediately after that. Best bet is to drop them in, hope to blow something up, and when they get fired upon immediately go to ground if you think they have even the slightest chance of not making it. That keeps your opponents guns off your other stuff and focused on them. If you're lucky you might make your saves and keep the whole squad alive for another turn. If you can get them in cover, get a 3+ save, and get a CC close to them, you can issue "Get back in the fight!" and have them back up and shooting once again.

Necroshea wrote:Answering the OP, the best and only real use of a kasrkin/storm trooper is to drop in and melta something to hell. It's a mech heavy environment, and even against nids you can put some serious harm on a tyrant/trygon/etc.

So do you see any flaws in either of the other two uses Flavius posted? Do you not think there's value of having all three of them as options?

Kasrkin also can't take PF, + with IG PF's are exceptionally underpowering


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And thats why my dice roll 1's for saves and 6's for Ld. He is my flukiest model in that whatever you throw at him, he'll survive against all odds. He might be Tainted by Tzeentch....

Storm troopers should never be deployed without using one of their special deployment rules. If you plan on them bolstering a gun-line or riding forward in a chimera just take vets. You pay a premium for those deployment options. So use them!

As for the best ways to use storm troopers. Theres a few methods i've tried and found to work well.

1, The deepstriking melta. (The only option of its kind available to guard)

2, D/S, Scout or Infiltrate with either Plasma or Melta (not both) into a good amount of cover. You can then harrass the enemy with deadly shots on vehicles or heavy infantry. They're pretty damn stubborn to try and remove and you can take down a squad or two when they do. It also creates a nice diversion to split a chunk of your enemies force off. This whole tactic can go horribly wrong but after a bit of practice it works a treat. Anyway, who dares wins right?

3, D/S, Scout or Infiltrate an objective and use them to hold the enemy at arms length until reinforcements arrive in a turn or two. You get browny points if you scout a chimera with them to provide additional fire support.

Storm troopers are on par with your standard tactical squad in terms of shooting at each other with their Hotshot Lasguns/Bolters. The only difference been that the storm troopers get a heap of thrown in gear and some saucy deployment options. I personally think very highly of the storm troopers in this edition but they require practice and patience. They are not vets and cannot be judged by their firepower alone.

So DSing melta seems to be the most lauded role for Stormtroopers. I must say that I do still like the idea of a MEQ kill squad with all the AP3 and plasma available.

Is there a reason that the melta option is preferred as seems to be the case based on these replies?

Yeah, airborne assault is most used because you have more deployment options than with outflanking, and the other special abilities, like causing pinning, are rather useless. Airborne assualt lets you put them wherever you need them most, while the other options are generally more limited. Nice to have the other options, perhaps, but that doesn't meant they're going to be the best option most of the time.

Melta is usually slightly preferred because the units that you're going to have the toughest time getting to (and thus be sending stormies after) in the current meta is vehicles. That and the only things that plasma is far and away better at is MCs and termies in the open, neither of which are all that terribly common.

Of course, I still like plasma stormies, but that's because I tend to come across a lot more AV10/11 than AV12+, especially given how easy it is for DSing stormies to hit side or rear armor. Plus, with plasma, you don't have to be quite so risky, as you don't have to try to hit that 6" sweet spot.

Thanks a lot guys, this thread has been very informing on the different ways to use ST's.
It seems like the most versatile thing would be to give 5 ST's with two meltaguns a chimera, because then you can choose between all three deployment options before deploying them.
Although they aren't exactly a power unit, I will definately be getting the plastic kit when it hopefully gets released in a month or two, as I have always been a fan of the fluff and the models (although I am not a fan of metal miniatures).
A fun but points expensive option could be to kit them out for assault with PW + PP on the Sergeant and two melta guns in a full size squad and outflank in a Chimera. They could melta a transport for a tac squad and then assault out of the Chimera the turn after and do some damage.

There's a plastic stormtrooper kid coming out?
Source on that?

Joey wrote:There's a plastic stormtrooper kid coming out?
Source on that?

Just rumors and speculation so far, like all things warhammer that isnt coming out in 3 weeks