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I just wanted to share my experiences having used these in a couple of games and been quite impressed with them.
I know they are vying with Blasterborndakkavenoms in the elite slot, and will subsequently never see much competitive play, but they do deserve some love in a semi competitive friendly environment (which is where I throw most of my dice)
Firstly they have something that is rare in any DE list, durability, with 3W and T5, plus FNP, they can really take repeated blows to the face and shrug it off. This isn't an excuse to march them around in the open (although I did end up doing that in one game trying to catch a jetseer council, thanks to my opponents manouvering error, it didn't end well for the rune throwing girls!)
I typically take 4, one with liquifier gun, one Aberration with either scissor hand or power weapon (yet to settle on which is best, maybe somebody would be good enough to mathammer it for me?) Led by a haemonculous (normally liquifier gun, venom blade, sometimes shattershard) This gives 4 different wound categories to the unit, not Nob levels of shenanigans, but enough to help. All mounted in a Raider.
The unit does lack fleet, which has led me to make a few positional errors with them initially, but with the two liquifier guns in the unit, plus an auto furious charge with the two starting pain tokens, these guys hurt if they get hold of you! 17 Strength 6 attacks can dent pretty much anything!
I want to try a list with them Rakarth'ed up to S6 base and 7 on the charge, and also as a bodyguard in a WWP delivery unit.
Curious as to anybody else's experiences, also any other synergies/cheese that I may be overlooking?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
PGL Archon for assault grenades is a bigger boon than Rakarth's S7, imho. That said I'd only consider Incubi over Blasterborn, which is just as well because I hate the Grotesque sculpts.
In a WWP list... I'd take 'em with Archon (or even with muth-fuggin VECT!).
I'm thinking of a "hybrid" venom + wwp list:
-2 haemy with wwp (maybe accompanied by wracks in venoms)
-grotie with a beat stick Archon (maybe vect)
-blasterborns on foot
-warriors in venoms for troops
-1 to 2 kitted out beast unit
-2 or 3 Talos
If I can figure out a decent delivery method for the WWP army, I'd definately try the Groties.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/03 19:28:08
I'm quite a fan of them too, they can throw a little spanner in the works of opponents who don't usually face them when playing Dark Eldar, and played sensibly as possible they can be very hard to shift and absorb a nice bit of the opponents firepower which is always a nice thing for any DE player.
To help with the OP's mathammer the Aberration isn't allowed a Power Weapon (alas!) so the scissorhand wins by default!
Revilers 6,000pts
Dark Eldar 4,000pts
Cadian 229 regiment 3,000pts
I played against them recently with my Tau, there were i think 5 of them with 2 haemies in a raider with advanced sails, First turn it shot towards mes but i blew it up. The game basically turned into me blocking them with devil fish, and destroying his army (more or less typical for a DE army, raiders with wyches, dakkaborns in venoms, 2 bombers, a ragaver). At the end of the game, i had destroyed most of his army, but they were untouched. As you can see, when in cover, they become plain silly, and they can kill just about anything they touch BUT, they are slow, and easy to avoid if their ride gets blown early, Basically, for me, they are a waste of points unless you think you can reliably get them to the enemies front lines. If you can, they WILL destroy stuff, if you have 4-5, they can probably take out around 3 chimera's in a guard gun list.
I tend to go Haem with Liquifier Gun and Venom Blade + 1-2 Grot + Grot with Liquifier Gun + Aberration with Venom Blade. In raiders.
The Venom Blade makes for 2+ hits, with rerolls to wound. It's also cheap. Scissorhands nice too. Flesh Gauntlets no point on them. It's a reasonabley fast unit when mounted, with 2 liquifiers. It happily smashes up most MEQ/GEQ units. With the wound allocation shenanigans, T5 and FnP they are really survivable.
Urien is frankly, not worth it. He's a HUGE points sink, he's really no more survivable than your standard Haemy, costs tons and reduces the total number of Haems you can take by 2.
The Grots being S6 instead of 5 frankly, isn't much of an thing, there's not many places it'll be enough to offset the extra cost of Urien and the upgrade.
That said, a list that would be funny as hell to run would be 3 squads of 10 wracks, with haems, 3 venoms with haems with wwps and wracks, backed by 2-3 talos.run forward with the venoms, drop portals, unholy tide of flesh erupts into opponents face
@Canadianone - you may be wrong or they were cheating, but Grotesques are Bulky meaning they take up 2 spaces in a raider, so you can fit at most 4 (plus 2 ICs) in a raider.
I used to take 4 grotesques but found that the extra plain grotesque didn't really do much (as the aberration did all the killing) so I took them down to 3 total. I found that I didn't miss the 4th as long as there was another IC in the group (usually it was a Haemy for better cc/shooting weapons so it was a trade off of dropping 4 strength 6 attacks on the charge for 4 agoniser/flesh gauntlet/venom blade attacks).
Now I will either take Urien + Haemy + 3 Grotesques on a raider or Archon + Haemy + 3 Grotesques on a raider. I have also tried Urien and an Archon to work just as well but I tended to split the Archon so rarely stayed in the group. These combos also allowed me to get an extra pain token to ensure are at least the squad had Furious charge and the Haemy was the source of an extra liquifier and/or agoniser. This also had a pure wound allocation shenanigan's as every model was unique. PGL on the Archon is nice but I do not think it is terribly important, I found I charged armor half the time anyway (can't ignore strength 7 on the charge hitting rear armor 10!).
To overcome fleet (and ensure they did not get their ride shot out from under them too soon) I would take the aether sails. First turn I would just sail them just inches from their main line. If the raider pops they would normally shrug off the explosion or FnP it. They were mostly fearless thanks to Urien and the wreckage gave them a cover save. Although most do not like the aether sails I think for their points they are fine.
On Aberration I like the Flesh Gauntlet, get to re-roll against monstrous creatures and if the target is going to fail an armor save then why not kill it. Scissor hand is nice but I find the 6 attacks on the charge as very functional.
In a WWP list I would run Urien + Haemy + Grotesques along with another raider full of wracks while the other two haemys are deploying WWP's. The idea is use Urien as a distraction while the wwp carriers are virtually forgotten about. Players usually do not ignore a raider full of Grotesques with Urien inside just inches away. Idea is Urien gets shot down and is sitting cover with grotesques while the wwp's behind him are already open - 2nd turn rolls around and Urien and grotesques can charge any kind of target you like while some of your units emerge from the WWP.
If you move 2nd the Urien's raider and wracks raider go into reserves while the 2 haemys with wwp's are forced to deal with the 1st turn shooting (with Urien, I try make them fearless with tokens). With the sails Urien can easily catch up to the portal units although he would be stuck on the raider.
Not crazy about minimized squads in a wwp list (other than the grotesques). With the randomization of the units and the need for the wwp escorts to survive you would need them to be durable to survive a turn of shooting while sitting in cover - can't see that happening at 5 strong.
As for using the Grotesques as wwp carriers, my fear is that once they get off their raider they will not be able to get back on or that they will be spending too many turns disembarking and embarking and will play a smaller role in the assault phase. Definitely not liking them on foot either, I think a raider is a must however I suppose putting them in the portal would be entertaining if the squad was a little larger.
So yah, they are a mini death star and a fantastic distraction unit - one of the few that can tackle either infantry or armor. They are heka fun and nothing to sneeze at either (although I know they compete for other worthy choices).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/03 23:55:10
That said, a list that would be funny as hell to run would be 3 squads of 10 wracks, with haems, 3 venoms with haems with wwps and wracks, backed by 2-3 talos.run forward with the venoms, drop portals, unholy tide of flesh erupts into opponents face
I was considering some variation of this list, but The stock models are hindering my desire. Now if I can think of some good proxy/conversion fodder...
CT GAMER wrote:I was considering some variation of this list, but The stock models are hindering my desire. Now if I can think of some good proxy/conversion fodder...
There are some awesome Rat Ogre conversions done with spare Talos parts that are absolutely fantastic. I found them on another website but perahaps I can find a link.
There are some awesome Rat Ogre conversions done with spare Talos parts that are absolutely fantastic. I found them on another website but perahaps I can find a link.
That said, a list that would be funny as hell to run would be 3 squads of 10 wracks, with haems, 3 venoms with haems with wwps and wracks, backed by 2-3 talos.run forward with the venoms, drop portals, unholy tide of flesh erupts into opponents face
I was considering some variation of this list, but The stock models are hindering my desire. Now if I can think of some good proxy/conversion fodder...
I've used Wood Elf Dryads and greenstuff for my grotesques. (Can see them in my P&M blog I believe) Few people find them a bit too skinny though.
Rat Ogres, some Beastmen units and your core Ogre unit are all viable conversion bases too.
The actual GW finecast Grotesques in their singular pose at £12.50 each frankly take the piss.
That said, a list that would be funny as hell to run would be 3 squads of 10 wracks, with haems, 3 venoms with haems with wwps and wracks, backed by 2-3 talos.run forward with the venoms, drop portals, unholy tide of flesh erupts into opponents face
I was considering some variation of this list, but The stock models are hindering my desire. Now if I can think of some good proxy/conversion fodder...
I've used Wood Elf Dryads and greenstuff for my grotesques. (Can see them in my P&M blog I believe) Few people find them a bit too skinny though.
Rat Ogres, some Beastmen units and your core Ogre unit are all viable conversion bases too.
The actual GW finecast Grotesques in their singular pose at £12.50 each frankly take the piss.
I checked out your blog, the Dryads-to-grotesques really came together once you added the greenstuff, etc.
Inspiring...
How does this sort of DE army build army play though?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/04 00:26:59
Well, the current list I'm running at 1500pts is: 2x Haemonculi (Liquivier Gun + Venom Blade) 2x 3 Grotesques (Liquifier Gun, Abberation with Venom Blade) mounted on Raiders (Flickerfield + Night Shields) 2x 10 Wracks (2 Liquifier Gun, Acothyst with Venom Blade) mounted on Raiders (Flickerfield + Night Shields) 2x 3 Wracks (Acothyst with Hex Rifle) mounted on Venoms (SC) 2x Talos (TL Liquifier Gun, TL Haywire Blaster / Stinger Pod) 1x Razorwing (4x Monoscythe, SC, FF + NS). To bump it to 2k is simply another Haem+ squad of grots on a raider and another squad of wracks in a venom.
Somehow I've only lost 1 game since I finally got my raiders and picked up a razorwing. Conversely, before that I was testing out units in all kinds of wacky setups and had only won about 2-3 games in the previous 6-10 months. Also to note is so far I haven't had to play anything too overly vehicle laden (I think the most in a single game has been 5-6 total).
I run it like this:
Spoiler:
The Venoms hang back, moving forward a little to dropthe hex rifle wracks on an objective / in a vantage point then the splinter cannons and hex rifles are free to pepper soft targets at range. The Hex Rifles are a cheap way to get venoms and are reasonably goot at dropping multi wound models. Sure it's like a 1 in 30 chance it'll work, but for a 3 man squad that only has 1 shot (that's fully capable of dropping MCs) they're cheap and generally get ignored meaning they can sit on objectives quite happily.
The Razorwing hangs back, hitting either a soft target or a vehicle (whichever I deem the greater threat at the time) then unloads its missiles on whatevers going. 2 Lances and the splinter cannon means it's versatile enough to take on either effectively.
The Raiders either A: fly 12" forward to put the grotesques and wracks into combat turn 1 OR, B: hang back and flank, staying in cover while using lances to soften the mech. THEN fly their payload into combat.
The Talos stroll up the field, taking advantage of Move Through Cover, being T7 and a giant scary monsterous creature to draw a LOT of enemy shots (and maybe pop a vehicle or 2). They're bullet sinks, that if they make it over no mans land tend to wreck their target, but they seem to take the heat off my venoms and razorwing if nothing else.
The Grotesques end up as 2 templates, followed by 8 S6, 6 S6 2+ Poison hits (go go re-rolls to wound on anything T6 or less ) and 5 S4 2+ Poison hits (same again but T4 and under) on the charge.
The Wracks, 2 Templates followed by over 30 4+ poison hits.
Short version: The vehicles are the firepower, their cargo ties things up and wrecks enemy infantry. The Talos are bullet sinks, there for intimidation value and to be wrecking balls.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/01/04 11:28:53
To help with the OP's mathammer the Aberration isn't allowed a Power Weapon (alas!) so the scissorhand wins by default!
I of course meant Venom Blade! (ahem...)
I've assumed that Scissorhand with its extra attack at 3+ is better than one less hit at 2+ with the Venom Blade, but not crunched the numbers (especially with rerolls the majority of the time, my mathammer skills aren't that great!)
For those hating the GW sculpts, totally agree! I use the Bio Terror from Paulson games, looks a lot like the codex art, and while it is technically still one sculpt, its ball and socket and multi part, so I have 4 different poses, currently have a scratch built liquifier on one, but will be adapting the one from the Talos I recently bought, as the scale is much better than my own attempt.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I don't hate the GW sculpts at all, in fact I think they are incredibly sexy, unfortunately the coven range are so costly, so I've converted my wracks, grotesques and Talos' from the fantasy range (using zombies and ogres).
I run my coven with two groups of 6 coming out of WWP. Although it's interesting when taking up this army, how durable it is, you essentially can make up to Str9 weapons seem like small arms fire, but then Str10 makes them so vulnerable.
So either make taking out Str10 weapons a priority or having more smaller sized squads like Ovion.
Revilers 6,000pts
Dark Eldar 4,000pts
Cadian 229 regiment 3,000pts 
