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Hey guys, just watched this vid on BOLS, if this is right we have being playing it wrong since this ed came out, just trying to see what others think.. I really don't see this being right since models are PLACED, not Moved... anyone able to clarify this?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/01/bols-academy-6-whats-wreck.html

Are you referring to how, if an assaulting model with a 25mm base is in base contact with a vehicles access point, with an inch being 25.4 mm you have .8 mm to place your disembarking model thanks to your 2 inch rule?

AKA you can leap over the intervening models when disembarking? I know that has been discussed before on this forum.

Everything in the video looked correct to me. Maybe I'm missing something here: exactly what part is confusing?

azazel, I think he is talking about how you disembark. When disembarking, you simply place your models 2 inches from a hatch. This has led some to say that you can place a model 2 inches away from a hatch, but more than 1 inch from an enemy model on your vehicles hull, and its legal because the model didnt move from the hatch but instead was placed 2 inches away.

Though if the OP is referring to something else, I am still waiting confirmation.

Good job the BRB FAQ covers this

If your vehicle is entirely surrounded and you are forced to Disembark, through a wrecked result, then you are destroyed

If your vehicle Explodes note you are NOT disembarking, and are placed where the vehicle used to be. This is NOT up to 2" from the hull!

Yeah... I had no idea there was confusion about this.

Q: If a transport vehicle is completely surrounded can a
unit inside disembark by moving through the enemy
models? (p67)
A: No. Models that disembark are still subject to the
normal movement rules regarding moving through
other models as per page 11.

From rulebook
"When the unit disembarks, each model is deployed within 2' of one of the vehicle's access points, and within unit coherency"

Page 11
A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is represented by its base or by its hull) or through a gap between friendly models that is smaller than its own base (or hull) size...To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting.

So as we can see, the OPs argument (if I read it correctly) is still valid. In the example, the vehicle is not completely surrounded by models, just enough to make disembarking troublesome. Thus, as it is not completely surrounded, the FAQ becomes less clear cut. The models can be deployed 2 inches from the access point, while in coherency, while not moving through a models base to do so, while maintaining 1 inch from the enemy when deployed.

Moving between models means you're moving within 1" of an enemy model (if they're in a single unit and in coherency). You are forbidden from doing that, so you cannot move through an enemy unit using the coherency gaps. Since you must disembark following movement rules, you can't "jump over" the surrounding unit.

As above.

The only possible way to do that would be if there was a 3" gap in the surrounding models.

It isn't confusing to me at all. The '1 inch rule applies.'

However, I will say that I have played opponents who didn't like my understanding of this at all. Of course in every occasion they would have been losing models in a tourney environment.

Every time, I have let them keep their models and place them breaking the '1 inch' rule. An assault usually ensued very shortly thereafter.

I have always found that happy opponents make for funner games, and I can concede that an argument can be made for this being a grey area.

In the case of vehicles, again assuming the OPs intention here, deployed from an access point is not movement exactly. You dont place your model in base with the access point and then move the model along the table to its final position. Thus, you have no initial frame of reference to determine if deploying the model has moved or not. Its not like the model MOVES 2 inches from a hatch, the entire unit simple appears 2 inches from a hatch.

This also means that if start by deploying a unit from a transport closest to the vehicle, subsequent models are never blocked off via the movement rule preventing you from moving through friendly gaps not wide enough for your base.

Also, moving between models is not automatically disallowed via disembark... moving through the actual model is. This is an odd thing, as they could have worded it to include gaps. As an aside, gaps between enemy models can be larger than 2 inches anyway, but in the example I will assume they were not.

Lets take another example. There is an impassible terrain wall 1 inch thick that a rhino's rear is touching. Now, common sense says that the infantry inside can not disembark through the wall. However, the spartan rules for disembarking simply state they are deployed within 2 inches of a hatch, meaning they are not moving through the impassable terrain. Its silly, but I am arguing from the OP's assumed stance here.

Also in the vid, he says he would assault the unit that disembarked, is he alloed to as I thought you can only assault what you shot at and so he could only assault the wrecked rhino?

Otherwise, I'd say the fact GW FAQed it to say that the unit is destroyed sums it up for me

DevianID wrote:In the case of vehicles, again assuming the OPs intention here, deployed from an access point is not movement exactly. You dont place your model in base with the access point and then move the model along the table to its final position. Thus, you have no initial frame of reference to determine if deploying the model has moved or not. Its not like the model MOVES 2 inches from a hatch, the entire unit simple appears 2 inches from a hatch.

Except that's exactly what the BRB FAQ implies. But okay.

This also means that if start by deploying a unit from a transport closest to the vehicle, subsequent models are never blocked off via the movement rule preventing you from moving through friendly gaps not wide enough for your base.

Citation? Just like moving models, I'd make you disembark them in order if there was a question about if everything was going to fit.

Also, moving between models is not automatically disallowed via disembark... moving through the actual model is. This is an odd thing, as they could have worded it to include gaps. As an aside, gaps between enemy models can be larger than 2 inches anyway, but in the example I will assume they were not.

Actually it is - because you're moving within 1" of an enemy model, which you're forbidden to do (assuming a 2" unit coherency gap and a single unit doing the surrounding).

Lets take another example. There is an impassible terrain wall 1 inch thick that a rhino's rear is touching. Now, common sense says that the infantry inside can not disembark through the wall. However, the spartan rules for disembarking simply state they are deployed within 2 inches of a hatch, meaning they are not moving through the impassable terrain. Its silly, but I am arguing from the OP's assumed stance here.

The BRB FAQ implies otherwise. You're right - it doesn't spell out that all disembarking must follow movement rules, but the implication is obviously there - and a TO would likely rule against you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Warlord Sniksgraga wrote:Also in the vid, he says he would assault the unit that disembarked, is he alloed to as I thought you can only assault what you shot at and so he could only assault the wrecked rhino?

Otherwise, I'd say the fact GW FAQed it to say that the unit is destroyed sums it up for me

If your shooting destroys the transport, you can assault the goodies inside. But only the shooting unit that actually destroys a transport - not every unit that shoots at the transport.

Warlord - page 67, i think, covers that - you can assault the unit that was embarked as long as the same unit destroyed the vehicle

Devian - it very much IS movement, hence the FAQ answer. The ONLY way you are getting out is if you are not entirely surrounded. If you are entirely surrounded you are unable to disembark and are destroyed

The GW faq choose the wording 'Completely Surrounded.' That wording, IMHO, is very poorly choosen, because the vehicle in the video is not COMPLETELY surrounded--there are gaps in the models surrounding the vehicle.

I agree on the intent, aka they are destroyed... but the OP seems to be asking about RAW.

As for shooting/assault, if you shot a transport, you can assault the occupants if the transport is destroyed.

Nos, what about the wall example I mentioned? Also, dont forget the FAQ states "Models that disembark are still subject to the normal movement rules regarding moving through other models as per page 11" NOT that disembarking = normal movement.

It isnt the FAQ alone that defines it as movement. The actual rulebook does that rather handily

You can disembark straight "through" a DT wall, but not an impassable terrain one

Is there more than 3" between the models? If not you ARE moving through the models in a unit when your base size cannot fit, and you ARE destroyed because that is an illegal move.

No ifs, no buts, no ambiguity here. If you cannot actually move, as disembarking is moving, then the model is destroyed If no members of the unit can disembark, the unit is destroyed

You can disembark straight "through" a DT wall, but not an impassable terrain one

What rule supports not being able to deploy behind impassable terrain?

DevianID wrote:

You can disembark straight "through" a DT wall, but not an impassable terrain one

What rule supports not being able to deploy behind impassable terrain?

As long as the models are still within 2" of the hull of the vehicle and are not ending the deployment IN impassible terrain, I don't see a problem with them being deployed behind IT. But GL keeping them within 2" and not in impassible terrain. That would have to be a fairly tiny piece of IT.

Dodgywop wrote:

DevianID wrote:

You can disembark straight "through" a DT wall, but not an impassable terrain one

What rule supports not being able to deploy behind impassable terrain?

As long as the models are still within 2" of the hull of the vehicle and are not ending the deployment IN impassible terrain, I don't see a problem with them being deployed behind IT. But GL keeping them within 2" and not in impassible terrain. That would have to be a fairly tiny piece of IT.

Not really. As long as .0000000001" of the base is within the 2" distance, you're safe. You don't have to be completely withing the 2" when you deploy. So if the rear of the tank is right up against a wall that is 1.75" thick, in theory you could deploy on the other side of it. I don't have my books at works so I can't look up the disembarkation/deploy rules.

...the fact that disembarking is still movement, mainly. Which is why you cannot move through another unit if your base cannot fit.

Nos, the issue is that we are not talking about moving through an enemy model. The FAQ disallows that. The FAQ is silent on what other rules the model must follow when being deployed, and the rulebook doesnt help, leaving us with a very narrow defination of what deploying allows, such as 'through' impassable terrain.

Also, we now have transports for jump infantry and jetbikes. They can move over enemy models. Can they disembark 'through' enemy units? Why or why not?

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1830600a_40k_Rulebook_version_1_4.pdf

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: If a transport vehicle is completely surrounded can a unit inside disembark by moving through the enemy models? (p67)

A: No. Models that disembark are still subject to the
normal movement rules regarding moving through other models as per page 11.

Disembarking is a form of movement. Read the question and the answer. Bear in mind that GW often phrases the questions in their FAQs to also communicate part of a rule which is related to but tangential to the primary question, as with the question about Mad Dok Grotsnik in the Ork FAQ, where it is the question part which tells us that vehicles are not permitted to take the Cybork upgrade.

If disembarking is a form of movement, then the questions about impassible terrain, or about jump infantry deploying over other units/models, answer themselves.

Mannahnin, I get what you are saying. However, when you deploy your models from a disembark, they dont move 2 inches from where they disembark. They are simply placed there.

Imagine a situation where a vehicle is not completely surrouned, leaving a gap for models to disembark through. Do they move 2 inches from where ever the gap is up to their movement of 2 inches? Is it enough that they can get out, and so can be anywhere within 2 inches of the gap, even if by a straight line from the gap they would pass within an inch of an enemy model during, but not before or after?

What about jetbikes/jump infantry? Can they jump over models, as we are applying movement rules and one of theirs allows them to jump over interveining models?

Or, do we take the FAQ at its absolutely most basic and restrictive form, which solves all these potential other questions, and only apply the FAQ when completely surrounded and only apply the movement rule about moving through models, with no other movement rule applied.

No matter what you choose, deployment is still not adequately described as a mechanic when disembarking.

DevianID wrote:No matter what you choose, deployment is still not adequately described as a mechanic.

FTFY.

But yes - disembarking is a form of movement. No, you may not pass within 1" of an enemy squad. Yes, jump infantry should be able to jump over the "obstruction". There's a transport for jetbikes?

DevianID wrote:Mannahnin, I get what you are saying. However, when you deploy your models from a disembark, they dont move 2 inches from where they disembark. They are simply placed there.

You mean like when I move a model onto the table from Reserve? The model's not actually starting the move on the table. I measure its movement distance and place the model on the table. I understand that there is a semantic difference between "place" and "move", but in this case GW is saying that it's movement.

DevianID wrote:Imagine a situation where a vehicle is not completely surrouned, leaving a gap for models to disembark through. Do they move 2 inches from where ever the gap is up to their movement of 2 inches? Is it enough that they can get out, and so can be anywhere within 2 inches of the gap, even if by a straight line from the gap they would pass within an inch of an enemy model during, but not before or after?

What about jetbikes/jump infantry? Can they jump over models, as we are applying movement rules and one of theirs allows them to jump over interveining models?

I have imagined those situations, and I'm pointing out that if you just read disembarkation as a form of movement, all those questions are answered. Just imagine that the front of the model's base starts at the hatch, just as when a model moves onto the table from Reserve you treat the table edge as contiguous with the front of the model's base. If you're Jump Infantry or a Jetbike you are allowed by the movement rules to move over other units and impassible terrain. If not, you're not, and have to stay 1" away for the entire move. So if the gap between enemy models is too narrow, you're forced to Emergency Disembark or Destroyed, depending on whether the whole vehicle's surrounded.

DevianID wrote:Or, do we take the FAQ at its absolutely most basic and restrictive form, which solves all these potential other questions, and only apply the FAQ when completely surrounded and only apply the movement rule about moving through models, with no other movement rule applied.

I think if you do that you're creating a problem where you don't need to. That reading is what creates the situation of finding the disembarkation rules inadequate. If it's movement, following all the usual rules and restrictions of movement, then the rules given for disembarkation are perfectly adequate.

Just imagine that the front of the model's base starts at the hatch, just as when a model moves onto the table from Reserve you treat the table edge as contiguous with the front of the model's base. If you're Jump Infantry or a Jetbike you are allowed by the movement rules to move over other units and impassible terrain

While this would be nice, GW does not say that the rule works like a model moving on from reserve when they are deployed from a transport. Instead they go so far as to provide a diagram that directly contradicts what you are saying, meaning that, per pg 67, this is incorrect.

Look at the rear hatch of the Rhino. A semicircle is drawn showing 2 inches from the rear hatch, with any model touching the rear semicircle counting as being legally deployed. If you were to try and move the model from the rear hatch like you suggested, as the model moving can not normally phase through the rhino the total distance using movement rules of 2 inches from the rear hatch would be MUCH shorter than the semicircle indicated.

Because the circle is not shortened, the model can not be moving from the hatch to its destination using the movement rules. This does not contradict the FAQ, as the FAQ answers what happens when the vehicle is completely surrounded by enemy models.

Because models are impassible terrain, this diagram also details what might happen with impassable terrain in between the access point and your desired destination 2 inches away from the access point--per the diagram you phase through the impassable terrain.

I don't see how this is so complex...

Surrounded + wrecked = destroyed, I don't know if they could've been more clear...

Warboss Gutrip, COMPLETELY surrounded + wrecked = destroyed. 100% clear, not arguing that.

What happens when you are NOT completely surrounded is what I am talking about.

And GW doesn't spell out what "completely surrounded" means. Unless it's just to say that the presense of enemy models leaves you no gap wide enough to move/deploy through.

DevianID wrote:

Just imagine that the front of the model's base starts at the hatch, just as when a model moves onto the table from Reserve you treat the table edge as contiguous with the front of the model's base. If you're Jump Infantry or a Jetbike you are allowed by the movement rules to move over other units and impassible terrain

While this would be nice, GW does not say that the rule works like a model moving on from reserve when they are deployed from a transport. Instead they go so far as to provide a diagram that directly contradicts what you are saying, meaning that, per pg 67, this is incorrect.

Look at the rear hatch of the Rhino. A semicircle is drawn showing 2 inches from the rear hatch, with any model touching the rear semicircle counting as being legally deployed. If you were to try and move the model from the rear hatch like you suggested, as the model moving can not normally phase through the rhino the total distance using movement rules of 2 inches from the rear hatch would be MUCH shorter than the semicircle indicated.

Because the circle is not shortened, the model can not be moving from the hatch to its destination using the movement rules. This does not contradict the FAQ, as the FAQ answers what happens when the vehicle is completely surrounded by enemy models.

Because models are impassible terrain, this diagram also details what might happen with impassable terrain in between the access point and your desired destination 2 inches away from the access point--per the diagram you phase through the impassable terrain.

Good question. My answer is that the diagram doesn't directly contradict it. That deployment is not a 2" move. It's a move of undefined distance which can't get the model farther than 2" from the hatch. That diagram does not require any of the SM to hop over the vehicle.

So, if there is a path to a location 2 inches from a hatch, you can travel however many inches you want to get there? It might work, but there is no rule stating such. Seems much much simpler to just place the models there, if so much of the movement rules like finite max distance wont apply.

Also, if you do get however many inches you want, do you have to stay within 2 of a hatch the entire time? Or is only the final position, and the potential for a legal path there enough?