purplefood wrote:INFINATE PREDATORS!
You need to put a max unit size...

chrisrawr wrote:

purplefood wrote:INFINATE PREDATORS!
You need to put a max unit size...

One, and it may be joined by 2 more. So 3, total.

chrisrawr wrote:That is to say, they don't do much for their points besides explode. They're 33 points for 5 attacks on the charge at WS5 S4 I3 (the best value). I can get 5 boys for that, which is 20 attacks on the charge, or 15 but also 10 18" bolt rounds. AND boys get to be fleet. I'd drop their base to 15, give them 2 wrist blades standard.

chrisrawr wrote:Insert a clause that each member of the unit must purchase insertion capsules if any one does.

chrisrawr wrote:Perhaps have the claws and throwing disks be rending.

LunaHound wrote:This looks so fun @_@

though i do think Predators need to be str 5 ( they are stronger than aliens that can tear through APCs)
and even the initiates need to be ws 4, bs 4. ( even the newbies arnt as incompetent as imperial guards! )

also initiative 4+ ( they are fast enough to react to alien's attacks ( the mini mouth too! )

chrisrawr wrote:

LunaHound wrote:This looks so fun @_@

though i do think Predators need to be str 5 ( they are stronger than aliens that can tear through APCs)
and even the initiates need to be ws 4, bs 4. ( even the newbies arnt as incompetent as imperial guards! )

also initiative 4+ ( they are fast enough to react to alien's attacks ( the mini mouth too! )

Nothing the Predators have done in any movie has been anything a regular human couldn't have. Regular humans get 3's. Reaction to the alien's mouth is part of WS.

LunaHound wrote:This looks so fun @_@

though i do think Predators need to be str 5 ( they are stronger than aliens that can tear through APCs)
and even the initiates need to be ws 4, bs 4. ( even the newbies arnt as incompetent as imperial guards! )

also initiative 4+ ( they are fast enough to react to alien's attacks ( the mini mouth too! )

chrisrawr wrote:Pulse Rifles are plasma weapons. Remember that the average Imperium Plasma Rifle is powered by a semi-stable nuclear reactor, and removes a 12-foot chunk of earth when it overheats.

Grunt13 wrote:
Something is missing from all this; a source justified account of how the actually fight would look; here’s mine:

First, some basic assessment logic:
All the weapons and personal armor that has been used by humans on predators is vastly inferior to the weaponry used in 40K. Lasguns are much better than M16s for example. At this point I consider it to be distortive to omit any source material, so everything is in. Predator blades are lighter and stronger than steel and razor sharp (movie predator 1, predator: race war) pretty much the same as the knives given to imperial guards. Predator equipment has been recovered examined, and broken in the battlefield. Example, masks have been punched through by alien second mouths (AvP movie), and broken predator equipment has been recovered from human battlefields (Bloody sands of time), armor penetrating rounds fired from M16s have shredded predators cutting through their armor (masks, shoulder guards) like it was a t-shirt (Predators: cold war).

How it would play out:
Numbers placed beside text indicate footnotes containing sources for predator referencing. Space marine abilities are based on fluff consensus and inquisitor rules plus marines are basically common knowledge to this community so I didn’t go into the same detail on their part.

Battle:
Marine in black power armor and helm walks into the woods. He smells the predator, hears its heartbeat; his enhanced eyes have little problem picking out the shimmering energy field disguising the predator who is currently up in a tree. Marine advances pistol drawn directly towards the predator. Creature realizes it has been detected, and fires its shoulder cannon, but because it didn’t have time to use the triangle points the shot is off about ten meters. Alien plasma hits a tree scorching its truck (1). Space marine watches as inaccurate shot of energy is fire by the predator misses him by wide margin – he would have side step the 40mph shots if they were accurate. He fires a quick burst with pistol, not at the predator but the branch that is supporting the creature. Three mass reactive missiles punch deep into the tree and detonate within the predator’s support. The branch explodes in a spray of splinters disrupting the predators stealth field as it sorts out (not like it was doing anything for him good anyway) (2); shoulder cannons are also damaged by fall (1). Predator lands poorly on the ground.

Space marine holsters pistol, starts up chain sword and brandishes it at the predator. Predator throws disk at the astartes who ducks projectile. The bladed circle turns around and hits him in the square in the back with a clang and falls to the ground (3). Predator charges and thrusts with spear hitting the marine square in the chest with pole arm, power armor absorbs blow and the space marine is completely unfazed by the strike (4) (5). Space marine casually backhands predator knocking off mask and causing it to spit a glob of green glowing blood from its mouth as it flops to the ground (6). Predator lashes out with wrist blades from its prone position streaking across marine’s legs causing an ugly noise as it cuts across the shin guards leaving a twin silver trail through the black paint exposing the first layer of ceramite and plasteel (4) – marine steps back and allows predator to stand, so that the creature may compete honorably. Predator retrieves weapon, swings pole arm making a series of thrust and slashes at the adeptus astarte. The marine blocks predator strikes with chain sword and unequipped forearm. Space marine plays like this for a few minutes before punching creature in sternum shattering its ribs (6) (7). Predator drops on the ground mandibles twitching and couching more green blood. The marine crushes one of its legs underfoot for good measure, hobbling the alien (7). Predator realizes fight is completely lost sets self-destruct device on arm. The marine lances off its arm bisecting the device with a flick of the chainsword (8). Marine stuns predator with cuff to the head and ties off arm to prevent creature from bleeding to death (9). Marine binds creature’s limbs and throws it over his shoulder. He then triggers commlink in his helmet to his inquisitor; “Deathwatch Marine Brock reporting successful live acquisition of alien awaiting pickup” (10).

Source Material– taken mostly from memory and some google searches for reminders:

1(strength and accuracy of shoulder blaster)
Shoulder cannon has failed to penetrate lion hide, a reinforced batman cape – in which it does not even sway batman when it directly connects, hasn’t been able to inflict significant damage to trees or background elements with missed shots, or shoot completely through a bare human torso. (Predator movie, batman verse predator, Predator: Rite of Passage).

Predators are just crappy shots. Couldn’t hit Arnold or others in the movies (predator, predators), they rely on those triangle targets which are both slow and obvious. These weapons also break somewhat easily (Predator: Rite of Passage, Predator 1).

2 (The stealth field sucks)
Normal camouflage methods are better for many reasons; human eyes are set to detect motion. When an opponent knows how a predator can conceal itself it is easy to combat it (AvP duel). Painted camouflage is better as the shimmering air effect creates moment in many cases, something human and animal eyes are built to detect – there is a reason that deer freeze up when scared. The predator would be better off attempting to conceal itself without its stealth field against an opponent that was even remotely familiar with predator tech. In Predator 2 people are even looking right at the predator thinking something like “Gee that’s a weird effect, must be a steam vent on this roof”; a little kid even offers the predator some candy while its field is active. It doesn’t work on little Timmy, but it is going to work on someone actually hunting the predator? Also these fields are creating an energy signature, which will make the predators easy to detect for anyone with the equipment to do so. These cloaking fields also break in almost every predator story; getting wet, falling, getting shot, and getting stab; have all cause the field to fail (Sources: basically every predator story, ever). My opinion on the stealth field is that since predators don’t see like a human being, they are using their best guess at a method of disguising themselves from our sight. Humans that coat themselves with mud or dip in a cold river are better at concealing themselves from the predators than the predators’ method of concealing themselves from us (predator 1, AvP deadliest, batman verse predator 3 – Mr Freeze).

3 (disk)
This weapon can cut through hanging beef and multiple human bodies. katanas are able of achieving a similar feat, but are easily blocked by chainmail and other simple armor – so it might was well be a plastic frisbee when used against someone in power armor.

4 (weapon sharpness)
Predator bladed weapons are sharp – welcome to 40K universe were the normal close combat weapons used by eldar have a mono-molecular edge and are made of wraithbone which make predator weapons edges look about as sharp and as strong as a boiled potato in comparison. Predator weapons have been examined by humans on multiple occasions, and are on record as being razor sharp, lighter and tougher than steel; They are impressive for a weapon in the 20th century; as the razors we shave our faces with are far sharper than the sharpest of swords. But that is nothing in 40K, imperial guard knives probably surpass the edge weapons of the predator both in durability of material and sharpness. Good luck cutting through power armor.

5 (predators relative strength and combat skill)
Predators are often seen landing non-lethal blows against humans – predators punching, kicking, chopping and other forms of unarmed combat does not kill the humans they are striking even when that is clearly the creature’s intent (Predator 1 &2, Predators, AvP: War, AvP: deadliest, Predator: Concrete Jungle, In Predator: Big Game, Predator: Bad Blood, AvP: three world war, batman verse predator 1-3 , Tarzan verse predator, basically every single story where there is a slug out at the end). In Predator: Bad Blood the whole series was just a big boxing match in the forest between a deranged predator and a human. Man punches predator in the face, predator punches man – this goes on for a bit. If a human being can survive repeated blows struck from a predator, then predators’ strength can not be anywhere close to that of a space marine. In predator 2 the creature struggled to lift its own body weight when hanging from the building ledge with Danny Glover. And in Predator 1 the injured predator who still had two free working hands couldn’t roll the log of himself – or maybe he just didn’t feel like trying.

At no time when comparing a murder scene of a predator attack do the authorities conclude that feats of strength performed by the attacker were beyond human capability (Predator: Race War, Predator 2). In Race War a human serial killer is arrested and takes credit for a bunch of kills performed by a predator. The condition of the bodies of the predator’s kills and the transportation of the bodies caused the authorities to look for a very strong individual with sharp specialized knives – not someone with superhuman strength. They DO NOT conclude for example, that the evidence trail indicates that multiple people had to be involve, machinery used, a non human creature like a bear was responsible, or some other situation because to the strength of the attacker showed that a human could not have possibly performed the feat – Not that at all, the authorities looked for a single, very strong, man.

Predators are not really that skilled of at melee as people make them out to be. Compared to skilled human combatants they are practically ape like. Humans fighting the predators have demonstrated that they possess superior skill, speed, and agility to compensate against the predator’s strength, better weapons, and durability. In Predator: 1718 a man using the weapons of the time fought the predator to a standstill using a sword – this combat parallels other mentions, on how predators perform when fighting warriors throughout human history, vikings, samurai, knights. There are quite a lot of examples of people killing predators with primitive weapons in straight combat, skill verse skill (Predator: Rite of Passage).

Best yet is Predator: Xenogenesis ( Official description on issue 1):
“For decades, the alien Predators have come to Earth, hunting humans as prey. But their actions haven't gone unnoticed . . . years of research have revealed their secrets. Now, the ultimate strike team of rogues and mercenaries--armed to the teeth with state-of-the-art technology--has banded together to eliminate the Predators . . . permanently.”
These guys butcher predators; that is really all that needs to be said. They are the wolves and the predators are the sheep. They aren’t sniping from a distance either. They charge right in and gut them in one-on-one combat. Predator to human kill rate is something like 10 predators for every 1 fallen human predator hunter.

6(blows struck against predator)
Humans have struck blows against the predators causing injury and pain. Predators fighting normal humans have been; hit with fist, tree branches, its own face mask, kicked by humans, stunned and knocked down often causing the predator to spit out a bunch of blood and take a few moments to recover. (concrete jungle, cold war, AvP War, AvP deadliest, predator movie 1, Bad Blood, Predators: the movie, etc). Any creature that gets hurt when punched by a normal human fist likely has its head caved in by space marine’s gauntleted punch.

7 (crushing damage)
Forces imposed on predators that have crushed their bones seen in the comics and movies. Predator suffers internal injuries and perhaps a broken spine when Arnold drops a log on it – note Arnolds character lifted log into place limiting its mass to what a human can actually pick up (Predator 1). A predator is able to crack another predators skull with his bare hands preventing it from being a trophy (AvP novel Hunter’s Planet), A bear snaps a predators spine in a bear hug (Predator: Primal). Many predators are crushed to death by a space cow stampede (AvP: original comic) A space marine in full armor stomping on a predators leg would shatter the creature’s bones like glass.

8 (self destruction device)
Not really sure the predator would even try to use it in this situation as when on Earth the point of the explosion is to conceal the predators existence – not really used in the futuristic settings of AvP were humans can move between the stars. Device is disabled when Danny Glover cuts off predators arm destroying device in the process. (predator 2)

9 (knocked outs and injuries)
Predators have been stunned knocked out and suffered injuries that require medically attention to save their lives (AvP: original comic, AvP: War, Predator 2, AvP: Deadliest). They can die due to internal injuries and blood loss, get stunned by blows inflicted by humans, and generally handle injuries the same as a large, tough, human would (Predator: Bad Blood).

10 (reason why marine just didn’t outright murder predator)
The marine would have been able to put a bolt round right through creatures mask at thirty paces with his pistol (see Basic assessment logic). It is not unheard of for an inquisitor to send deathwatch marines to acquire a living sample. This bit of fluff explains why the marine was holding back during the fight. Why he just didn’t gun it down, blow it up with a frak grenade, cut it in half with a chainsword, or slap its head around its neck for example.

Conclusion:
The logic is very simple and straightforward - if a normal human can inflict injury on/kill a predator using inferior equipment such as; modern weapons 20th century/ medieval, bronze age, or even stone age weapons / tree branches/ knives/ bare hands, and out fight it using their combat skills. Then a space marine can shatter its skull with the back of his hand. I consider my conclusion to be logical and based on the evidence at hand. I know it seems harsh for the predator, but really, it is fighting a space marine after all.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:I agree wholeheartedly. On the topic of Astartes/yautja juxtaposition though, I don't think that the stats in the OP are too high... I think that Space Marine stats are too low. See my sig.

Red_Starrise wrote:Have you thought about using Lukas the Trickster's stasis field as a model for the self-destruct device? Basically when he dies both players roll off w/ ties going to the SW player, if the SW player wins all models in btb w/ him are casualties.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Red_Starrise wrote:Have you thought about using Lukas the Trickster's stasis field as a model for the self-destruct device? Basically when he dies both players roll off w/ ties going to the SW player, if the SW player wins all models in btb w/ him are casualties.

I haven't read the Necron codex yet, but being able to insta-kill everything in base contact seems just a little open to exploitation...

Of course, this is coming from the guy who wants a 36" blast radius instead.