Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

OK I know alot of people are anti using them as they unbalance the game but my circle of friends don't play apocalypse and Ive just got myself a shiny new crassus to field. This post isn't about why they shouldn't be used but rather how to make it fair. I was thinking of allowing my opponent to use some apocalypse formations but not having the apocalypse rulebook I don't know how many I should exchange for the use of my Crassus. I know there is the super heavy detachment rule which would be great for larger games but I don't know if that rule even still stands as there is no mention of it in the latest Apocalpyse forgeworld book. Any ideas or feedback guys?

A Crassus is just a Super Heavy Transport vehicle with a few heavy bolters(or whatever it swaps to) that can carry 30 guys. its only got 2 Structure points and if it blows up it will be a danger to everyone.

It should be ok to use it at face value in a regular game. its things like Baneblades and Titans that become underpriced when used in regular 40k.

That is why I chose a crassus as its not to OP and I personally think I would be better off filling a heavy support slot with Leman Russes but im all about rule of cool and I want to mix it up, but after initial talks my friends seem to want something in exchange, any further thoughts especially with regards to allowing my opponents limited amounts of apoc fomations. As the apoc formations would not take any FOC slots then I should think I would be able to take my crassus in the same way and spare my precious FOC slot.

I have always thought there were two ways to make super heavies viable in pickup/fun games:

1) Play two games. You use it in the first game and then let your opponent use it in the second game, make up some fluffy reason why they would have it if you need to.

2) Use it as an objective. There might even be a scenario someplace for such a thing. Place it in the center of the table under "Machine Spirit" control, it shoots at a random target each turn and cannot move. If you end the opposing players turn adjacent to it, you can start moving/shooting it as normal. Points are given if you control it or get it off your board edge.

Homer

Yeah I like the idea of allowing them to use it. I had planned to use it as a moving bastion in planet strike games so as far as objective gaming im sure I could make it interesting for all parties involved good suggestions thanks.

As with all the forgeworld stuff, it really depends on the item. A squiggoth might be okay, but a gargantuan squiggoth won't be. Almost any variant of baneblade is going to be painfully broken for regular sized games, as are titans.

Some do work, though. The crassus is one i have seen used before(probably because it crumples under melta fire) and a couple others but the list is very short. For scenario play, they are awesome, but most scenarios I play in are designed to be unbalanced.

-cgmckenzie

Homer S wrote:
2) Use it as an objective. There might even be a scenario someplace for such a thing. Place it in the center of the table under "Machine Spirit" control, it shoots at a random target each turn and cannot move. If you end the opposing players turn adjacent to it, you can start moving/shooting it as normal. Points are given if you control it or get it off your board edge.

Homer

GW actually did a WD scenario for that. It works quite well, but is designed for having multiple super heavies.

Homer S wrote:2) Use it as an objective. There might even be a scenario someplace for such a thing. Place it in the center of the table under "Machine Spirit" control, it shoots at a random target each turn and cannot move. If you end the opposing players turn adjacent to it, you can start moving/shooting it as normal. Points are given if you control it or get it off your board edge.

I am now picturing Orks flying a looted Manta off the board...

You could use the spearhead rules for superheavies.

If you want to make it fair, state that you can take X amount of points from apoc, and to be fair to players without apoc units, put a points value on some of the stratagems in the back of both books.

That should satisfy both sides. Just don't be a dick with it.

yeah, let em take a Vortex Grenade just to shut them up about Super heavies being overpowered.

Why not use spearhead rules. This allows for use of super heavies while keeping the structure of standard FOC. Also it gives your opponent a chance to field something he normally can't (e.g. 3 falcons in spearhead sqiuadron)

The rules for including superheavies in 40K are that they take up an entire force org chart. This means that both armies are using two force orgs.

At low points levels this is actually a disadvantage - at 2000-2500 points it starts to work but not everyone has the models to take advantage of it.

My preference (not supported by rules) is to take 2000 points from a single force org and then allow both players to select 500 points from outside the org chart - i.e. extra heavy support, fast attack, super heavy, etc.

If my opponent wanted to take a superheavy, I'd go with the Spearhead rules--it sits outside the force org chart, but it either starts in reserves or it takes a single piercing hit before the game starts, no saves of any kind allowed.

Teln wrote:If my opponent wanted to take a superheavy, I'd go with the Spearhead rules--it sits outside the force org chart, but it either starts in reserves or it takes a single piercing hit before the game starts, no saves of any kind allowed.

a penetrating hit on a super heavy has a, small, chance of killing it outright. a 6 followed by a second 6 will kill a baneblade.

A CRASSUS ARMORED ASSAULT TRANSPORT isn't as big of a threat as a titan or a baneblade, but I'd still reckon it'd be a PITA to blow up, and would probably be a game-breaker in standard 40k.

I'm opposed to anything FW or Apocalypse to be used in regular games. They're meant to be used in gigantic games where your opponent has something to potentially match them.

We have a house rule that every list can have one Imperial Armour OR one Apoc unit. Anything with structure points, has each structure point count as a heavy unit in the FoC.

For example, our IG player has a baneblade... so no other heavies in the force. We also play that only 40k templates are used in 40k games and that each structure point is a kill point or that fraction of the victory points.

So far, its worked really really well and has stayed balanced (we play 1500 to 2000 point matches).

Scott-S6 wrote:The rules for including superheavies in 40K are that they take up an entire force org chart. This means that both armies are using two force orgs.

This was the case under old Imperial Armour rules, but not any more. It's a fine house rule, but it's no longer "the rules".

I agree with DAaddict, have a look into the Spearhead rules. It has an option for super heavies, which is balanced out by random damage inflicted on itat the start of the game.

i have always had a personal rule for people using super heavies against me that seems to work quite well...

"you can use as many super heavies as you like, but they can make up NO MORE THAN a tenth of your armies points"


i find that even against non heavy stuff, a baneblade is just a pain in 5k whereas in smaller games it would be a tad ott. (same thing goes for using titans, wanna use a warlord.... sure but you'd best have a 25k army surrounding it )

If you know it is coming, you can tool a list to take it down or at least give it trouble. The key thing is no surprises. If everyone at your LGS runs balanced lists, you would have to give them a chance to revise it some.

It's supposed to be a fun game, that is why I suggested using it in a game and then let your opponent use it. That way, if it really decides the game, both sides get to use it.

Homer

Super Heavies are intimidating till you actually face one. A squad of Meltaguns will ruin its day just like it will any other tank.

Or a bunch of scarabs that sneak in close...

I had a look through the rule book at the spearhead and found nothing about super heavies or piercing hits can someone point me in the right direction...

In our last battle using Homer S's advice we did an objective match there was a forcefield protected bastion which contained the Crassus STC. The forcefield first had to be disabled at a remote bunker which had automated defences (tarantulas and automated units which attacked the closest enemy unit) then the bastion was free for the taking but to make things even more interesting the STC then had to be carried back off the opposite side of the board to the bastion. My friend's Chaos marines put up a good fight but the chance of finding a precious STC machine and the untold riches that come with such a discovery drove my guardsmen to victory... and best off all as I captured it I can field the Crassus in the next battle and he can't

If you deploy a SH on the table in spearhead it suffers a glancing hit.

Hydrapup wrote:I had a look through the rule book at the spearhead and found nothing about super heavies or piercing hits can someone point me in the right direction...

The rules for 40k's Spearhead Expansion (not to be confused with the BRB's spearhead deployment) can be downloaded [url=]here[/url] (login required). The rules for using superheavies are on the last page.