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Hey Guys Im an ork player, I just started playing a few months ago and I have a friend that plays the Necrons. He just recently bought a C'tan Shard and that thing is nearly unstoppable, and the destruction it brings to my orks seriously throws the balance in his favour. Im trying to figure out what could possible counter it, Could Lootas be the answer? Or Nobz? whenever i go into assault with him with a mob of my boyz he generally can take out the whole squad and still be standing... Help?

Lootas can kill it on turn one or two.

Boyz on the assault won't get the job done, but shoota boyz shooting might. He's only got a 4+ save.

If you've got 10 loota's getting 2 shots each that's 6 hits, 3 wounds, 1 or 2 missed saves. Dude's 1/4 to 1/2 dead already.

Power Fisty Nobz with Cybork bodies. Even a Nobz Squad with a healthy amount of fists in it. If you get the charge, you're hitting on 4's wounding on 2's. If you have a Waaagh banner, he's hitting you on 4's aswell (WS 5 O_O)

Heck, even big-choppas! You'd go simultaneous with the guy, hitting and wounding on 4's and he'd have his teribad 4+ save. Also, Nobz have wound allocation shenanigans that'd help (have a big choppa, burna, some whatever else mixed in that you can squeeze in. Painboy w\ Poison wounds on a 4+ too)

Also, Rockets from your Deffcopta's would be effective.

Run him over with a Deff Rolla would work too. D6 S10 hits, if he assaults he'd be hitting on 6's with his 5 attacks on the charge (4 on his profile).

Edit ---

Also, he's like... super slow, so you should be able to grab the assault on him, most of the time, or at least move away from the guy if you need to. It also eats up 260ish points of his army. If you blow it away with 10 loota's, he'll be a sad panda.

Alright yeah i was thinkin about lootas, but the Power nobz? hhhmmm i might do that too just in case the Lootas dont work. But thanks alot dude!

Shoot it, don't assault it. The problem is when he hides it behind a monolith.... then you are really in trouble.

You are going to have to rely on tactics for that one.

Shoot it with a stiff breeze and it will die. C'tan Shards are one of the most disappointing things about the new codex

Gus Indo wrote:Shoot it with a stiff breeze and it will die. C'tan Shards are one of the most disappointing things about the new codex

I must be looking at a different entry then because a couple of the powers make them very good...

Massaen wrote:

Gus Indo wrote:Shoot it with a stiff breeze and it will die. C'tan Shards are one of the most disappointing things about the new codex

I must be looking at a different entry then because a couple of the powers make them very good...

The powers can be good. But if you want dangerous terrain and redeployment abilities you are paying 250 pts roughly for a model that isn't very combat capable and will have to hide from enemy shooting. If you run it cheap, you don't get good powers and you still pay too much for a monstrous creature.

Unless your opponent is hiding the C'Tan behind a Monolith, it's just a walking target board. And if he is hiding in the shadow of a Monolith, then just ignore it as it's only ever going to move 6 inches at a time.

if the C'Tan had the Deceiver's old power of being able to escape combat by moving 2D6 inches, then it would still be worth the cost. But at present, it really is about 50 points overpriced.

Is the Ctan overcosted? Sure, but he is the only necron unit thats worth a damn in assault in the codex anyway.

My argument is, if you need wraiths to deal with something, chances are Immortals are enough to replicate the same effect by shooting it.

You only run it with writhing and gaze anyway, stuff that makes him useful even if he isn't in assault.

How do ya figure? 5 Wraiths will make 15 Str 6 rending attacks, whereas 5 Immortals will make 5 Str 5 Tesla attacks or else up to 10 Str 5 Guass attacks. That is quite the difference.

The immortals make these attacks at 24" away. Theyll prolly get 2 shots off, and we are talking about str 5 tesla here, capable of making more attacks.

Wraiths will hit on 4's (ws4) while immortals will hit on 3's (BS4), wound on 3's, so it kinda balances out. Also, immortals are cheaper, so its not really fair to do a man-to-man comparison.

Sure,that many rending attacks sound nice, but thats assuming that your wraiths don't get shot in the 1st place. Immortals dont get the same target priority as wraiths do in shooting.

Yuber wrote:Is the Ctan overcosted? Sure, but he is the only necron unit thats worth a damn in assault in the codex anyway.

My argument is, if you need wraiths to deal with something, chances are Immortals are enough to replicate the same effect by shooting it.

You only run it with writhing and gaze anyway, stuff that makes him useful even if he isn't in assault.

This is a fundamentally incorrect assertion. Wraiths can handle a multitude of things, that Immortals can't. In addition, they can function as a very powerful counter assault unit. Immortals can whittle down and kill a wide varity of infantry, but they fold in close combat, and cannot really do damage to vehicles (assuming Tesla) Wraiths can handle all of that.

While Wraiths and Immortals can share some of same duties, you certainly can't come to replicating the effects of either one, by having more of the same.

How is the CTan stat line 'not very combat capable'? Seriously???

Massaen wrote:How is the CTan stat line 'not very combat capable'? Seriously???

It's the 4+ that really kills it. It only takes 8 wounds on average, to kill a C'tan. Considering that strength 4 can still wound it on sixes, this poses a huge problem. If the C'tan had a 2+ or even a 3+ it would be a different story. At it's price, it really needs a better save.

Sasori wrote:

Yuber wrote:Is the Ctan overcosted? Sure, but he is the only necron unit thats worth a damn in assault in the codex anyway.

My argument is, if you need wraiths to deal with something, chances are Immortals are enough to replicate the same effect by shooting it.

You only run it with writhing and gaze anyway, stuff that makes him useful even if he isn't in assault.

This is a fundamentally incorrect assertion. Wraiths can handle a multitude of things, that Immortals can't. In addition, they can function as a very powerful counter assault unit. Immortals can whittle down and kill a wide varity of infantry, but they fold in close combat, and cannot really do damage to vehicles (assuming Tesla) Wraiths can handle all of that.

While Wraiths and Immortals can share some of same duties, you certainly can't come to replicating the effects of either one, by having more of the same.

I made my point with regards to Immortals along with a Ctan compared to Immortals along with wraiths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sasori wrote:

Massaen wrote:How is the CTan stat line 'not very combat capable'? Seriously???

It's the 4+ that really kills it. It only takes 8 wounds on average, to kill a C'tan. Considering that strength 4 can still wound it on sixes, this poses a huge problem. If the C'tan had a 2+ or even a 3+ it would be a different story. At it's price, it really needs a better save.

And this is why you always get Gaze of Death to heal him =)

I made my point with regards to Immortals along with a Ctan compared to Immortals along with wraiths.

I made my point about how you are wrong as well.

And this is why you always get Gaze of Death to heal him =)

Which is pointless, if he is killed before he has a chance to use it. Which, is not diffcult in the slightest.

The main reason a C'tan is never worth it in a TAC build is because of DE.

That 250 price tag hardly seems worth it when it only takes 2 venom's on average to take him out.

In regard to the OP's problem, loota's should do the trick quite handily.

Sasori wrote:

Massaen wrote:How is the CTan stat line 'not very combat capable'? Seriously???

It's the 4+ that really kills it. It only takes 8 wounds on average, to kill a C'tan. Considering that strength 4 can still wound it on sixes, this poses a huge problem. If the C'tan had a 2+ or even a 3+ it would be a different story. At it's price, it really needs a better save.

That hits the nail on the head pretty hard. I've used him pretty successfully screening him behind a Mono. I've played with a list with a 2 or 3 Monos DSing to port them into the thick of things. I think it could be fun, but as previously mentioned, DE is a nasty match up. The lances remove the Monos primary strength and the poison can take the C'tan down fast.

Also fairy dust or whatever that silliness is called does give him Stealth. Not world breaking but a 3+ cover isn't awful. And like with any amalgamation of points in the Dex, Nemesor is always a nice addition. Furious Charge can bring the C'tan from good to great in CC. 5 S8 I5 WS5 attacks on the charge are certainly nothing to sneeze at.

The problem with giving him Stealth is that he's a monstrous creature. The models for the shards are huge and tall, if your opponent can see 50% or more of that huge tall beast, he's not getting that 3+ cover save.

If the Stealth universal special rule changes in 6th to allow a scout move or infiltrate or something... mmmmm hawtsauce. (I highly doubt that'll happen though)

loreweaver wrote:The problem with giving him Stealth is that he's a monstrous creature. The models for the shards are huge and tall, if your opponent can see 50% or more of that huge tall beast, he's not getting that 3+ cover save.

If the Stealth universal special rule changes in 6th to allow a scout move or infiltrate or something... mmmmm hawtsauce. (I highly doubt that'll happen though)

Vary tru, but outside of the Mono the Crons did get a lot of pretty big vehicles (namely GAs) to hide him behind.

Here's the kicker though ShadarLogoth, all those big vehicles... are not so good either. :-) (IMO, I know some people swear by Ghost Arks, Monoliths are just average now, and I think we can all agree that Doomsday Arks are.... "meh")

loreweaver wrote:Here's the kicker though ShadarLogoth, all those big vehicles... are not so good either. :-) (IMO, I know some people swear by Ghost Arks, Monoliths are just average now, and I think we can all agree that Doomsday Arks are.... "meh")

Everybody loves A-Barges, and a couple of those can provide a descent screen to a C'tan. I'm definitely in the court that loves GAs, and I like Monos, but would like them a lot better if they could fire everything in one turn (please God make it so in 6th edition).

But, I have to say one reason your undervaluing those vehicles is your disregarding how big of an advantage the bigness of them is. People tend to theory hammer 40k so much that they forget its a 3D game. Giant mobile walls of LOS and cover providing terrain are just awesome.

Sasori wrote:

I made my point with regards to Immortals along with a Ctan compared to Immortals along with wraiths.

I made my point about how you are wrong as well.

And this is why you always get Gaze of Death to heal him =)

Which is pointless, if he is killed before he has a chance to use it. Which, is not diffcult in the slightest.

That is why you hide him behind a monolith. Seriously. You dont let him assault things he cant win against right?

Isn't Gaze of Death 50 points? 50 points for a chance at getting a wound or two back, when it's highly likely that you'll just die before you can use it? Blech. :-)

As for Ghost Arks & Doomsday Arks, their bigness is as much a detriment as a bonus. Sure, it blocks a lot of LOS, but you have to hide over 50% of it to get a cover save, and it's tough to negotiate through any part of the battlefield that's dense.

loreweaver wrote:Isn't Gaze of Death 50 points? 50 points for a chance at getting a wound or two back, when it's highly likely that you'll just die before you can use it? Blech. :-)

As for Ghost Arks & Doomsday Arks, their bigness is as much a detriment as a bonus. Sure, it blocks a lot of LOS, but you have to hide over 50% of it to get a cover save, and it's tough to negotiate through any part of the battlefield that's dense.

Then please, enlighten me as to which units would be able to kill the Ctan fast enough before he can proc his gaze? -And im talking about practical situations.

Yuber wrote:

loreweaver wrote:Isn't Gaze of Death 50 points? 50 points for a chance at getting a wound or two back, when it's highly likely that you'll just die before you can use it? Blech. :-)

As for Ghost Arks & Doomsday Arks, their bigness is as much a detriment as a bonus. Sure, it blocks a lot of LOS, but you have to hide over 50% of it to get a cover save, and it's tough to negotiate through any part of the battlefield that's dense.

Then please, enlighten me as to which units would be able to kill the Ctan fast enough before he can proc his gaze? -And im talking about practical situations.

Also, another sick thing about the new Gaze is he uses it in addition to his CC attacks, where as the old NB move he had to choose one or the other. So it's not just 50 points for a regen wound or two, it also substantially ups his hitting power in CC, particularly against hordes.

Yuber wrote:

loreweaver wrote:Isn't Gaze of Death 50 points? 50 points for a chance at getting a wound or two back, when it's highly likely that you'll just die before you can use it? Blech. :-)

As for Ghost Arks & Doomsday Arks, their bigness is as much a detriment as a bonus. Sure, it blocks a lot of LOS, but you have to hide over 50% of it to get a cover save, and it's tough to negotiate through any part of the battlefield that's dense.

Then please, enlighten me as to which units would be able to kill the Ctan fast enough before he can proc his gaze? -And im talking about practical situations.

Grey knights force halberd activated.

Cryage wrote:

Yuber wrote:

loreweaver wrote:Isn't Gaze of Death 50 points? 50 points for a chance at getting a wound or two back, when it's highly likely that you'll just die before you can use it? Blech. :-)

As for Ghost Arks & Doomsday Arks, their bigness is as much a detriment as a bonus. Sure, it blocks a lot of LOS, but you have to hide over 50% of it to get a cover save, and it's tough to negotiate through any part of the battlefield that's dense.

Then please, enlighten me as to which units would be able to kill the Ctan fast enough before he can proc his gaze? -And im talking about practical situations.

Grey knights force halberd activated.

Ctan eternal warrior activated.

Sure, fine, if the C'Tan with eternal gaze makes it to combat, he starts regening wounds. So what does he assault that costs more than his hefty 245+ points?

Also, Thunder Hammer / Stormshield guys...

C'Tan gets his 5 attacks, 4 hits, 3 wounds, TH/SS guys make 2 saves.

hit back 8 attacks, 4 hits, 3 wounds, C'Tan fails 1-2 saves (goes at initiative 1 next round).

Does his Gaze, gets 4 hits, wounding on 5's, gets one wound which the TH/SS guy saves (most of the time) and the combat goes unfavourably for the C'Tan from there.

Oh... and that squad is 200 points, at least 45 points less then the C'Tan.

Ctan eternal warrior activated.

Takes 2 Venoms to the face. Dies.

It's also not feasible to hid him behind a lith vs DE as it no longer has protection against the lance rule. Given the popularity of DE, C'tan simply aren't feasible in a TAC list.