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Hi all

I used to play Warhammer Fantasy and 40K about 13/14 years ago, I forget now. Alas as I grew up I lost interest in the hobby due to the prices and the corruption of booze, music and general debauched hedonism.

Anyway about two years ago I started reading the Horus Heresy series as being a former CSM player I was always a fan of the background fluff to it and thought it was one of the best elements of the 40K universe. I popped into my local GW store last week to pick up Deliverance Lost (great book) and all the little wistful thoughts and memories came flooding back to me and I fear I'm about to tip back into the hobby.

Now, my problem is:

- a bit of research indicates the Codex for Chaos I had was second edition (?) so I can see how far the hobby has moved on since then so I need to learn new rules;

- I have nothing left of those long ago days. At all, it's all gone far, far away. Probably not a bad thing as my painting skills were woeful;

My main issue is probably linked to the army I want to go with. Once a CSM always a CSM player I think but due to the Horus Heresy novels it comes with a bit of a twist. I want to make a Thousand Sons force but a loyal one, whilst still accepting they're a Traitor Legion.

Essentially, I know they've been classed as Traitors, I know their Legion is a Chaos one but I want to create an offshoot that uphold the ideals of the Imperium whilst still being Thousand Sons. Effectively they're the enemies of all, the Loyalists will hate them as will the Traitors. This raises a couple of questions:

- what Codex do I use? Would it be considered poor form in gaming circles to field a Chaos legion but to use generic SM rules? I'm not planning on using Daemons;

and

- does any of the above make sense?

Thanks for reading and I hope this is the right place to ask, if it's not by all means move or close it - I have no wish to clutter a board and thanks in advance of any tips or hints, they're all greatly appreciated.

If I understand, you want to make a Thousand Sons army, not loyal to the emperor but that upholds the Imperium's ideals? Anything that's not pre-heresy Thousand Suns should really be using the CSM codex.

Honestly, there seem to be alot of contradictions in your outline.

1. "Once a CSM always a CSM player".. so you want to play CSM? Seems to imply you like the chaosy, spikey, etc.. stuff. e.g. traitors (irrespective of the Legion they may come from).

2. "want to make a Thousand Sons force but a loyal one, [...] use generic SM rules?". Fluff aside, what is "CSM" about that? A "loyal" force using SM rules seems to point into the direction of non-CSM force on the table (irrespective whether or not your self-made background gives it a spin as descending from a traitor legion). If it's "loyal" in your fluff and "loyal" in the rules, what exactly is in there speaks to your "Once a CSM always a CSM player"?? Those guys would just be loyals Space Marines on the table all said and done.



Now, I see the appeal of your "traitor to the traitors, traitors to the loyalist"-spin you try to work (though Thousand Sons are probably the least likely to pull it off). But for building a table-top army (as opposed to writing your own background-novel), I think you need to get your priority set on a far more simple level as to what the "first impression" your army is to make to an opponent who does not know your elaborate background.

A) It's a Space Marine army (possibly pre-Heresy and all, but no spikes and mutation, etc..). Use Space Marine rules. The "special twist" would be left to background and longer-campaign-play purposes.

B) It's a "Once a CSM player, always a CSM player" army with spikes and gore. Use CSM rules. The "special twist" that they still consider themselves "loyal" would be left to background and longer-campaign-play purposes.

Hi thanks for the reply

I want them to be loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium whilst respecting the idea that their overall Legion has been branded a Traitor Legion. I'd like the army personell to also be from pre-Heresy/The Heresy.

I'd plan it out in more detail but the fluff would be roughly that - Magnus sends his message to the Emperor and blows the webway, Russ is dispatched and Prospero is sacked with Magnus legging it to the Eye of Terror with the remains of his legion.

Some of these TS depart the Planet of Sorcerors, or escape and link with TS forces that were not present at Prospero. They remain loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium despite knowing they'll never be recognised as such by the Loyalist legions and are also in effect turning their back on their Primarch, TS loyal to Magnus and the Traitor Legions. I sort of envisage them as being The Thousand Sons as they were meant to be, not as they eventually became. A sort of play on Gandalf's line in LOTR when he comes back as Gandalf the White and he says that he is Sarumann or rather, Sarumann as he should have been.

These Loyalist Thousand Sons would be hunted down and as butched as mercillesly by The Space Wolves as they would by The World Eaters. They fight for the Imperium without getting any of the credit.

Edit - Zweischneid, thanks for the input, I'm sort of thinking aloud to an extend whilst trying to muddle my way back in. When I say once a CSM player I mean I'm always going to go with one of the Traitor legions. I like the idea of a really tragic group of wandering Marines trying to uphold what The Thousand Sons were meant to be rather than what they became however, that never renounced the Emperor. As I say, this could all be utterly unworkable/reliant on the goodwill of others but there'd be no mutations, spikes or Daemons involved.

I love the idea that you are working with here. Since you are going with Thousand Suns that did not go over to chaos, I would go with the standard marine codex.

If you're going Thousand Sons but with the standard Marine Codex, you're going to have to do quite a bit of work to make sure they're not mistaken for Ultramarines. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't those armies use similar blue/yellow colour schemes?

StoneRaizer wrote:If you're going Thousand Sons but with the standard Marine Codex, you're going to have to do quite a bit of work to make sure they're not mistaken for Ultramarines. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't those armies use similar blue/yellow colour schemes?

Well, "pre-Heresy"/"loyal" Thousand Sons would be red.



Essentially, fluff aside, you would be looking at a (loyal) Space Marine army painted largely red, using some egyptian bits, perhaps the Rubic-Marine-heads for Sergeants, etc.., probably a Librarian or two as HQ.

Perhaps shop around for egyptian-themed bits from third-party producers. Example> http://kromlech.eu/?p=483

Ahh thank you so much, those Egyptian style heads were exactly the sort of thing I had in mind

I'll be retaining the standard pre-Heresy red armour though using some more blue scattered through it, I'll get the CSM codex for old time's sake and the standard SM one then. Thanks for the input and kind words, hopefully I'll have something to show you all soon!

Just FYI, the Blood Ravens space marines chapter are heavily rumoured to be descended from Thousand Sons who remained loyal.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Ravens

So much for my original idea! Shows you how long I've been out of the hobby, I'd not even heard of the Blood Ravens

I'll still work on a very visibly Thousand Sons force I think, I'm loving those Egyptian heads!

Maybe use the GK codex? They are all psyky.

I pretty much agree with the above posters. If you want it to be pre-hersey, but stay with the current look of the thousand sons (egyptian themes) and use the SM codex. You may however find some more hardcore players that want you to use the CSM codex espcially if you are using the Thousand Sons models from the CSM line of models. So people just don't understand the love of player created fluff!

Whatever you do, remember to have fun with it!

GK dex probably fits best for the Psyker chapter.

foostick wrote:So much for my original idea! Shows you how long I've been out of the hobby, I'd not even heard of the Blood Ravens

I'll still work on a very visibly Thousand Sons force I think, I'm loving those Egyptian heads!

Well. They had a few of those. Old-style crazy Minotaurs were rumored to be "loyal" Marines using World Eater gene-seed. Though they disappeared and (by more recent FW-fluff) re-appeared 3 millenia later as a much more sober chapter (though still assault-crazy in many ways). Sons of Antaeus may or may not have been designed to be loyals Death Guard. As are possibly Star Phantoms thanks to their iconography and white armour. Carcharodons (Space Sharks) are a very mysterious "out-there" chapter, whose marines all sport jet-black eyes and very pale skin, which in turn is a gene-defect known to appear among the descendants of two legions: Raven Guard and Night Lords. Take your pick. I even read some fanfic that Red Scorpions (FW's iconic adoption sort of) with their obsession for purity and perfection may by "loyal" Emperor's Children. As said, the last one was probably only fan-fic.

Either way, if at all, it is usually only hinted at or implied as one of several possiblities. But the idea has certainly been out there.

I'd go with the GK 'dex.

Thanks again to everyone who's posted advice, I'm feeling inspired to get starting! Payday can't come soon enough

Wait a minute, there are no romantic walks on the beach here...

azazel the cat wrote:Wait a minute, there are no romantic walks on the beach here...

Ya, I was disappointed as well.

Events are in motion and plans are afoot. Do the Marines in The Assault on Black Reach and the battle force sets come fully poseable? I'm thinking of getting them as cost effective way of building up a force quickly but obviously doing some heavy converting.

Not really, they come in like two or three different pieces that are just clipped together, possibly with glue involved.

As above, the Assault on Black Reach ones are push together models. The battleforce just has the sprues from the normals boxes. So the marine one has the sprues from the rhino, tactical marines, assualt squad and the scout boxes. They're normally a reasonable saving but only if you have a use for everything in the box.

Would it be a difficult task to remove the heads? I'm starting to thinkI may come to regret this idea!

Removing the heads shouldn't be difficult at all. Since they're resin instead of metal, a few minutes with an exacto knife should do the trick.