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Which ones actually work? I've been having lots of problems, especially once they engage me in close combat. I've looked over the Codex and no unit I see is something I ever really want locked in close combat with the close combat units of other armies. I guess that means I have to go extremely shooty, but I'm having a hard time finding the right shooty units. I was thinking Cyclone Missile Launcher Terminators, Lascannon Sponson Predators, Razorbacks w/ Heavy Bolters and an optional storm bolter, and 4x ML Devastator Squads. Have those be the bulk of my army. Am I on the right track? Sorry I'm new to most of this and I'm really hating not being able to deal with units once they get close. There's only one unit I'd ever consider getting into assault with and that's a fully kitted out Command Squad, but that's so expensive.

Thunderhammer termies are still one of the best cc units in the game, especially when supported by nullzone libby.

99% of competitive SM lists start with 5 assault termies + land raider + librarian.

After that, Vulkan is a good buy. Lots of tl-melta and flamers supported by assault termies is still competitive.

Your weakness is the troops section. Tactical marines are meh, scouts have their uses, but are not awesome either.

Command squads, terminators and devastators are not very competitive. Razorbacks benefit from a better gun. The heavy bolter is not really punchy enough. Las/plas is quite decent for normal marines.

Rifleman (double autocannon) Dreadnoughts put out a lot of dakka. As has been said already, TH/SS Termies are still more or lessthe iconic elite CC unit, especially with Null Zone support.

Also, if you're going to run Vulkan, then SM bikes gain wonderful synergy, and have the speed and maneuverability to stay out of the CC's you don't want them in.

Combat Tactics, ATSKNF, Librarians with Null Zone and Thunderhammer Terminators are some of the best elements in a Vanilla Space Marine list. After those, adding in a troops choice for every 500 points is a good place to begin. I prefer TL LC Razorbacks and full 10 man Squads with lascannons. Preferred support elements include Thunderfire cannons, Attack Bikes and Rifle Dreads.

To run vanilla marines successfully:

!) Paint them blue.

2) Make sure Matt Ward is your tournament ref

3) Demand that the other army submit to their spiritual liege.

4) ...

5) Victory!

Vanilla Space Marines, sadly, aren't a top tier competitive list. You can still make them work, and there are generally two ways to make a competitive VSM list. As was already mentioned, both will probably include the 5 th/ss + nullzone librarian + LR combo.

1) Vulkan. MM/HF Dreadnoughts or melta/HF Ironclads in pods. MM/HF speeders. Tac squads with flamers or meltaguns. This list tries to put pressure on the enemy right away and likes to maneuver close to bring its nasty melta and flamer weaponry to bear.

2) Vanilla gunline. LS with Typhoon missiles. Predators with autocannon and lascannons. Razorbacks with las/plas. Rifleman dreads. This list is more standoffish, although the assault termies give it a strong counterpunch unit.

To give advice that's completely different from what everybody else has said...

I personally have had a lot of success with mech marine lists that are built on principles originally put forward by Stelek on his yesthetruthhurts.com blog. Here's a link to my own army lists on Dakka:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Flavius_Infernus%27s_Ravenguard_Mech#Army_List

The idea is to fill all your elite/heavy/fast slots with the undercosted, high-firepower units in the codex, then fill out the troops with tac squads in rhinos or razorbacks.

Because you don't even bother with trying to do assault (feasible assault for vanilla marines means a high buy-in cost) and substitute Combat Tactics and manuverability, you can sink an insane number of points into pure shooting.

Compared with the other armies that I've played over the years, this type of mech marine list played properly is very hard to beat. You don't always win every game (I have more draws with this army than any other) and you often don't win by a huge margin. Sometimes most of my army is destroyed, but I still win the scenario on victory conditions. Sometimes I win even without destroying a single enemy unit. But it gives you the tools to play the mission better than a lot of other types of lists.

I second what Flavius is saying here. TH/SS termies, while undeniably one of the best assault units in the game are expensive, not just for the cost of the unit itself, but for the cost of the Land Raider Crusader that you put them in. And if you just take one, you're running the 'single rock' problem, whereby if your opponent can neutralize that single unit, which isn't all THAT hard to do, your game plan suffers heavily.

Vanilla SM do have access to alot of very cheap shooty however. Your elites slot yields up Rifleman (2 x TL Autocannon) dreads, which are excellent fire platforms.

Heavy yields up Dakka Predators (Autocannon + heavy bolter sponsons) which are absurdly cheap at 85 points a throw and put good, if not startling fire down field. The Autocannon/sponson lascannon build is also viable, though more costly.

Fast attack yields landspeeders, which even better can be squadroned. Generally either the Multi-melta/heavy flamer setup, or else the Typhoon launcher setup with the heavy bolter. Both have their uses.

Troops are not a good slot overall, tactical marines main asset are that they're a reasonably tough scoring unit. Go with flamer/multi-melta or flamer/missile launcher, stuff them in a Rhino bunker and call it good. At higher points you can add in 5 man squads with flamer or melta gun, and a combi-flamer or combi-melta on the sgt, and stick them in the Razorbacks others have mentioned. Las/plas is pretty solid.

Librarian is hands down your best HQ choice, dont throw upgrades at him, keep him cheap and take Null Zone without question, and one other power to taste. Personally I rather like the Avenger. Dont waste the points on the Epistolary upgrade though.

Your goal is to put alot of vehicle targets on the field, with a ton of S5-S8 shots going down field each turn, backed up by a liberal dose of melta and flamer for proper (AV13/14) tanks, and hordes respectively. Use your troops to hold objectives and take pot-shots at things that come close to their rhino bunker with either multi-meltas or missile launchers depending on which build you opted for. There's alot of over-hype over the newer, cooler marine codexes, but the vanilla marines are still a strong codex with good options that deal well with the sorts of threats you are likely to see in a competative environment, IF you play well.

TH/SS termie spam
Full drop pod army
Full bike army
Vulking synergy lists
Shirke fleet lists
Dreadnought spam (6 of them)
Mass sternguard
Anything troop heavy with calgar
The list goes on

Everyone is going to yell at me for this but I generally run NO CC in my lists for competitive gaming. They get outfought almost everytime. No TH/SS termies for me unless the game is 2000 points or higher.

Roboute wrote:Vanilla Space Marines, sadly, aren't a top tier competitive list. You can still make them work, and there are generally two ways to make a competitive VSM list. As was already mentioned, both will probably include the 5 th/ss + nullzone librarian + LR combo.

1) Vulkan. MM/HF Dreadnoughts or melta/HF Ironclads in pods. MM/HF speeders. Tac squads with flamers or meltaguns. This list tries to put pressure on the enemy right away and likes to maneuver close to bring its nasty melta and flamer weaponry to bear.

2) Vanilla gunline. LS with Typhoon missiles. Predators with autocannon and lascannons. Razorbacks with las/plas. Rifleman dreads. This list is more standoffish, although the assault termies give it a strong counterpunch unit.

Pretty much this. I personally use a variation of Option 2 at 2K. I put the Termies in a Vanilla LR and sit it right in the middle of my lines and try to shoot my opponent to hell as they close in. Anything that survives is greeted by the Termies. As long as you are not rushing the LR forward and into melta range, it surives relatively well. If you were going to use them more offensively (ala LR Rush) then you need another LR and Termies (aka a Rock list).

Dan Mohle's Salamander army is a good example of a mean Vulkan list.

And everything Flavius and Furycat said is very true. I generally find that with my Vanilla Marines I have to really focus on the objectives rather than simply trying to kill everything. I have to use lots of screens, sacrificial speedbumps, and focused firepower to keep just enough stuff alive to win the mission.

Lotus wrote:Which ones actually work? I've been having lots of problems, especially once they engage me in close combat. I've looked over the Codex and no unit I see is something I ever really want locked in close combat with the close combat units of other armies. I guess that means I have to go extremely shooty, but I'm having a hard time finding the right shooty units. I was thinking Cyclone Missile Launcher Terminators, Lascannon Sponson Predators, Razorbacks w/ Heavy Bolters and an optional storm bolter, and 4x ML Devastator Squads. Have those be the bulk of my army. Am I on the right track? Sorry I'm new to most of this and I'm really hating not being able to deal with units once they get close. There's only one unit I'd ever consider getting into assault with and that's a fully kitted out Command Squad, but that's so expensive.

You've summed up the situation really well.
I would say command squad and assault termies are the only good cc units.
Honour guard and vanguard also can be trusted in cc but are too expensive.
Otherwise you'll want to avoid cc accept against non cc armies.

And yes you are right you just avoid it.
I would take a cc command squad probably on bikes or assault termies probably on landraider at high costs as you need the cc threat.
Otherwise just take shooty stuff. I think I should mention rifledreads, sternguard if you like it close and the nonheavy flamer razorbacks. The heavy bolter razorback gets a bad reputation, today I am feeling sorry for it, good for you for mentioning it.

If you turn your list fully on then vanilla marines can be very competitive. Maybe it would be slightly easier with a Gk army and if you take a middle of the road GK army can still put up a good fight but vanilla still have a lot going for them. Most people would take Vulkan to push their list as this is the easiest way to get a full on tournament list, then spam meltas and flamers, add some long range threat and then add assault termies with hammers in a raider and you have a good list.

You need combat tactics or/and fists just in case you are assaulted.

Good luck