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My friend and I are starting an Ork army. We're using a Big Mek with shokk attack gun for the sheer love of randomness. I'm thinking about putting him in the back of a truck with a mob of 10 shoota boyz. Since I have no experience with Orks I was wondering if that sounds like a good idea to you guyz.

Not at all.

There are three big problems; lack of durability, no independent targeting, and, well . . . pointlessness.

That trukk will explode if anyone so much as looks at it funny. That's the durability problem. AV 10 can be killed by basic small-arms.

If the Big Mek is in the trukk with the Shoota Boyz, he is attached to their unit. . . which means that they have to shoot at the same target as him. You don't want to shoot a SAG and Shootas at the same thing. That's the problem of targeting.

And, thirdly. . . why? The SAG is a Heavy weapon; you can't fire it if the trukk moves. So if you're moving forward to get into assault (which is what the trukk is designed to do) you can't use that great weapon you paid 60 points for, and if you're NOT moving. . . why are you in the trukk? And why are those Shoota Boyz with you, anyway?

10 Boyz in a trukk? Fine, though you might be better off making them Slugga Boyz. A SAG Mek? Cool. Both together? Not useful. Take them both, keep them separate.

Agreed, both are useful, but should never be fielded in one combined unit.

I am experimenting with a SAG Big Mek attached to the crew of a Big Gun Battery. They are both static units, the Big Mek and the Battery can pick separate targets in the shooting phase (unlike if he was attached to Flash Gitz or Lootas), the Grot crews can be the Big Mek's meatshield, and any hits on the unit are only allocated to the crew 33% of the time. This is great even against the Vindicare, as he does not allocate hits but wounds. Sadly, Ammo Runts bought for the Battery cannot be utilized by the Big Mek like the extra ones bought for Flash Gitz unit.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:I am experimenting with a SAG Big Mek attached to the crew of a Big Gun Battery. They are both static units, the Big Mek and the Battery can pick separate targets in the shooting phase (unlike if he was attached to Flash Gitz or Lootas), the Grot crews can be the Big Mek's meatshield, and any hits on the unit are only allocated to the crew 33% of the time. This is great even against the Vindicare, as he does not allocate hits but wounds. Sadly, Ammo Runts bought for the Battery cannot be utilized by the Big Mek like the extra ones bought for Flash Gitz unit.

Can you explain why they can fire at different targets if they are part of the same unit? I was under the illusion that as he has joined the artillery's unit, he must pick the same target for the entire battery as well as the SAG with it.

Do you mean you hide the SAG BEHIND the Battery?

Artillery rules allow the crew and any attached IC to fire at a different target than the artillery guns.

I don't understand why he would run only 10 boyz. As soon as they lose one dude they're gonna book it.

Trukks are meant for getting your dudes across the field fast, they aren't meant to last.

Jidmah wrote:Artillery rules allow the crew and any attached IC to fire at a different target than the artillery guns.

Wow, I didn't see that bit in the rulebook! I'm slowly going through the rulebook trying to absorb all the info, but haven't got to that section to go in depth yet! Cheers. Very handy!

Due to the "common" usage of artillery you will have forgotten everything about it when you actually meet them on the table anyways

I was really confused when I met a couple of eldar vibro cannons last week, because I had no idea how resolve an assault against them

I have run a Big Mek with a SAG in a Trukk before with Shoota Boyz attached. They all started embarked, but on the 1st turn, the Shoota boyz hopped out and the Mek sat there plinking away with his SAG. (In this specific case, I had an objective in my deployment zone. The shootas got out of the trukk and camped out on it while the Mek stayed in the Trukk and shot. The Trukk was even parked in a corner taking advantage of its long range. So, if my opponent wanted to shoot at it, he had to move closer to my advancing army)

For the record, I never moved the trukk, it merely served as an extra line of defense for the Mek. Yes, Trukks are flimsy, but you still have to hit it and kill it before the Mek starts taking damage. Granted, there is a chance he gets stunned, pinned, etc. But, you do not have to worry about the Big Mek running away if he takes too many casualties in the squad he is attached to.

I am not saying it is a brilliant strategy, but it will help keep the Mek alive for a while longer as the high powered, long range shots have to blow up the trukk first. These same shots would have insta-killed the Mek. I have done it and it served to be useful in specific situations. So, depending on what you are trying to accomplish, it does have its merits.

But think about this, a STR 7 shot against a Mek wounds on a 2, but only glances a trukk on a 3. Then, if it does manage to blow up the trukk, it only wounds on a 5. There is the pinning and stunned chances, but it does offer some survivability.

You're forgetting that if the Trukk is Shaken or Stunned, the Big Mek cannot shoot. And that the Trukk may Kareen when it's destroyed, sending your Big Mek to a random place that you cannot control, quite possibly with no cover.

And, finally, in order to get this very minor increase in survivability you have to take a small mob of Boyz, put them on foot (thus basically ensuring that anything which looks at them funny will kill them), and pay 35 extra points in order to protect a 95-point model. All the extra protection you're giving your SAG you are taking AWAY from your Boyz. On top of that, you're wasting the speed of the trukk and taking it purely for its armor, which is its worst characteristic.

I think this is a very poor strategy, frankly. If you want to protect a SAG Mek, attach him to a Big Gun battery,or a unit of grots. Don't waste a trukk on him.

I was not forgetting about shaken or stunned. That is a risk. What I did say was that in certain cases, it may make sense. In this case, I parked the trukk in a corner. The objective was on the 2nd floor of a nearby ruins, so they had to get out anyway. So, in my specific situation, it made sense to make use of a trukk for the Big Mek to sit in.

Saying it is a poor strategy is failing to take into account why I did it. If my opponent wants to waste his long range, high strength shots on that lone trukk, go right ahead. He is not shooting at the other vehicles that were rushing at him and getting right in his face.

I have placed my Big Mek in a big gun battery. There are risks inherent with that too. Even if I take 3 guns and max out the number of extra grots (6 I think?), I still only have 12 grots. They are T2 and no save other than cover. Kill off 3 of them and I am now taking leaderships. And, oh by the way, grots don't count towards mob rule, so you are going against LD8. There are risks with that too.

So, as I said before, there may be cases where you can put him in a trukk and it has value. Every situation is different. So i would not immediately write this off as "poor strategy" simply because the math doesn't make sense. Not every game relies on all of your orks rushing down the field at breakneck speed. So, if you find yourself in a situation where you have an extra trukk, why not park your Mek inside it and plink away?

As I said before, I never claimed this would be the "do this and you will always win" strategy. There are times where doing what is counter-intuitive is better.

** and, as for Kareen, that can be mitigated by the placement of your trukk. For example, simply placing the trukk in a corner and placing some of your lootas nearby. Kareen stops at table edges and friendly units. We can play the what if game all day.

There are specific circumstances in which more or less anything will give you some kind of advantage. A poor strategy is one which gives you an advantage ONLY in a small set of unlikely circumstances, or which depends on your opponent making bad choices in order to work. Putting a SAG Mek in a trukk is such a strategy; even in the best case it provides only minimal benefits, and more often then not it will actually be counter-productive.

If there's a Trukk in the corner with a SAG Mek in it, I am absolutely going to throw a little fire at it. It doesn't take much firepower to get a damage result on a Trukk, and preventing a SAG from firing from a turn by shooting two or three autocannons or a couple missile launchers is well worth it. For that matter, three autocannons have an EXCELLENT chance to destroy the Trukk outright; and then I get to clean up the Mek himself next turn, and never have to worry about the SAG again.

A Mek with 4+ cover is more survivable than a Trukk, and also doesn't deprive one of your other units of their transport. Sitting a Trukk on an objective all game is just sort of missing the point of it; they cost 35 points because they're fast and open-topped, so they can zoom forward and launch Boyz right into your opponent's face. If you have them sitting still in the backfield, none of their good points matter and all of their bad points do; if anything they matter MORE, because you've got a model with a Heavy weapon that you want to shoot every turn in that tin can.

There are, of course, risks when putting the SAG Mek with any unit. Those risks are less likely to result in something bad than having him alone, no matter what. That's what makes them good strategies; the fact that in ALL circumstances a Mek attached to a Big Gun battery or a grot mob is more survivable than one who isn't, as opposed to only being more survivable in the very specific circumstance of being parked in the corner and playing against an opponent who is for some reason unwilling to so much as fire a couple of autocannons at you.

Nothing is a "do this and you will auto-win" strategy. However, putting a SAG Mek in a trukk is a "do this and it will rarely, if ever, help you" strategy, which is what makes it a bad idea. It is certainly not something that you should have in mind while building your list and making pre-game plans.

Jidmah wrote:Due to the "common" usage of artillery you will have forgotten everything about it when you actually meet them on the table anyways

I was really confused when I met a couple of eldar vibro cannons last week, because I had no idea how resolve an assault against them

lol!
Well funnily enough in the few battles I have had since starting again and learning the rules as we go, I have fielded 2 Zzap Guns in a Battery in most of my games so its good to know about that rule. I know most of the details, but he rarely shoots at them, and they have done a decent job so far. (Taken out Termies & Land Speeders.)

I find they become a more viable option if you equip them with Ammo Runts, that way when your trying to strike AV14 and you finally get a good Str Roll, you can use the ammo runts to make sure you clobber it!

Green is Best! wrote:Saying it is a poor strategy is failing to take into account why I did it. If my opponent wants to waste his long range, high strength shots on that lone trukk, go right ahead. He is not shooting at the other vehicles that were rushing at him and getting right in his face.

High strength as in heavy bolters, scatter lasers, multi lasers or autocannons? All those can reliably take down a trukk a pretty high distances. Even a stormbolter on random rhino might.

I have placed my Big Mek in a big gun battery. There are risks inherent with that too. Even if I take 3 guns and max out the number of extra grots (6 I think?), I still only have 12 grots. They are T2 and no save other than cover.

You are mistaken here. Whenever the big gun battery is hit at range, you roll a d6, and only on a 5+ your opponent gets to wound a gretchin, otherwise it goes against AV10, as long as a single gun is allive. Add 4+ cover and gretchin suddenly have the equivalent of a 2+ save. Keep in mind that you can easily do cover shenanigans due to the unit size, so your big mek and the gunz have a clear shot, while the other models are hidden in cover. Any torrent of fire that kills all three big gunz plus gretchin in cover would also easily have killed the trukk and the big mek inside.
They can also have a runtherd, to add another wound.

Kill off 3 of them and I am now taking leaderships. And, oh by the way, grots don't count towards mob rule, so you are going against LD8. There are risks with that too.

However, you can have a boss pole on your bigmek, meaning you can reroll that ld8 test a the cost of one gretchin. Ld8 with a reroll is (slightly) better than ld10 (about 93% chance to pass). Also keep in mind that your big mek can be pinned when the trukk explodes, and he can not reroll that test if he is by himself.

So, as I said before, there may be cases where you can put him in a trukk and it has value. Every situation is different. So i would not immediately write this off as "poor strategy" simply because the math doesn't make sense. Not every game relies on all of your orks rushing down the field at breakneck speed. So, if you find yourself in a situation where you have an extra trukk, why not park your Mek inside it and plink away?

Because the trukk makes him worse. Simply putting those boyz with him inside a ruin will result in the same advantages, without the disadvantages. Even putting him with three(potential scoring) MANz is more effective than that.
Buying trukk boyz to steal their trukk simply never pays off.

Again, I never said this was a great idea to run every game. All I said was that there are cases where it might work. Rather than just crap on the OP's original comment and tell him "never, ever do that, its a horrible idea" I listed an example of how and why I did use it to limited success.

I realize that a trukk goes up fairly easily. But any shot that can take out a trukk, wounds a Big Mek even easier, in some cases even insta killing the Mek should it be STR8 or higher. Which, now you will default to "But the Big Mek can get a cover save." A trukk is an open topped vehicle and I can shoot from any point on it. So, I can park a trukk 95% behind something, still get my SAG shots AND get a cover save. If the trukk goes up, well there is a chance my Mek takes a wound, but he is not going to die outright.

And, putting him with MANz is "better" advice? I have to disagree with that. MANz need to move and get into CC. SAG needs to stay put and shoot.

All of the above examples you listed, should my mek's cover save, would have killed him. You now list all sorts of options I can put him with to keep him alive (such as with MANz, boyz, artillery, etc.). In this particular instance I was not running big gunz, so that was out. I did not want to put him with my Lootas so I could shoot at different targets. I needed a squad of boyz to capture an objective in a nearby ruin, so they went upstairs and captured it. Had my Mek gone with them, he would have not been firing because he was moving. Since the remainder of my army (wagons and trukks) was going off to fight in a more normal orky tradition, I thought I may as well put this trukk to use and let the Big Mek sit in it. Yes, this was not your normal situation, but it did work out. So, take it for what it's worth.

The sag is 60" range. Why put him in a trukk? Just put him at the back in a bit of cover and shoot! People will be more bothered about killing your boyz than killing the big mek!

Do the defiler tactic, and put him in the back corner. One nice tactic is to put him a LONG way away, possibly in a unit of Lootaz. This can double up as a method of giving the Lootaz a bosspole as you can stick one on the Mek!!

I realize that a trukk goes up fairly easily. But any shot that can take out a trukk, wounds a Big Mek even easier, in some cases even insta killing the Mek should it be STR8 or higher. Which, now you will default to "But the Big Mek can get a cover save." A trukk is an open topped vehicle and I can shoot from any point on it. So, I can park a trukk 95% behind something, still get my SAG shots AND get a cover save. If the trukk goes up, well there is a chance my Mek takes a wound, but he is not going to die outright.

Unless your opponent is a very bad player and/or brought a very bad list, he is going to kill an AV10, open topped large blast AP2 ordinance weapon as soon as possible. The difference between putting a big mek in a trukk and putting in cover by himself is about two shots from any heavy weapon of your choice.
So you are kind of right, against a bad player or a player with a very bad army, your idea works. That's more often than never.
I also never advised setting up a big mek without a unit.

And, putting him with MANz is "better" advice? I have to disagree with that. MANz need to move and get into CC. SAG needs to stay put and shoot.

Yes, those MANz doing gak for the entire game is better. Putting the big mek in a trukk with boyz costs 141 points , resulting in a boyz unit that can't do gak, makes him susceptible to shaken, stunned, being pinned or kareening out into the open when the trukk pops. A unit of MANz costs 120 points + 5 points boss pole provides a 2+ armor save, six wounds and heavy resilience to backfield assaults, without any drawbacks. In my book, that's better, who cares about whether they make it into close combat?

All of the above examples you listed, should my mek's cover save, would have killed him. You now list all sorts of options I can put him with to keep him alive (such as with MANz, boyz, artillery, etc.). In this particular instance I was not running big gunz, so that was out. I did not want to put him with my Lootas so I could shoot at different targets. I needed a squad of boyz to capture an objective in a nearby ruin, so they went upstairs and captured it. Had my Mek gone with them, he would have not been firing because he was moving. Since the remainder of my army (wagons and trukks) was going off to fight in a more normal orky tradition, I thought I may as well put this trukk to use and let the Big Mek sit in it. Yes, this was not your normal situation, but it did work out. So, take it for what it's worth.

We are talking about list building here. You are not suddenly waking up at a game table with some random orks and forced to deploy your SAG. For the trukk to ever make sense at all, the SAG has to start in it, meaning you have already committed those 11 boyz to doing nothing but capturing objectives the moment you field them. If you decide to have them actually use their trukk, you are forced to leave your big mek with lootaz or even without any retinue at all, which we both agree on being a terrible idea. Even if maxed out your FOC in elites, troops and heavy support, you could just join him to a couple of bare koptaz for better protection and less points than that wasted unit of trukk boyz - and their big shootaz might even kill something.


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Vichyssoise wrote:Do the defiler tactic, and put him in the back corner. One nice tactic is to put him a LONG way away, possibly in a unit of Lootaz. This can double up as a method of giving the Lootaz a bosspole as you can stick one on the Mek!!

However, the SAG is inefficient at shooting the targets lootaz usually shoot (vehicles, MCs), while the lootaz are inefficient at shooting the targets a SAG usually shoots (Infantry with good armor saves).

How about the other tactic people use when fielding a SAG. Take a unit of grots and join him to them. You not only get body count cover, but you also get a cheap ass backfield objective holding/taking unit, and who cares if a few grots can't fire...

Works pretty well and is the cheapest option out there. Big gunz are better, but the do cost a heavy support slot. If you don't have a spare one, gretchin without guns are your next best option.

I've run a SAG Mek with loota's before. Gives the loota's a Nob (which they lack normally) and having them all target the same thing is usually not that big of an issue.

I like the mek with the grot artillery idea though... didn't know that rule (about two targets) & the pairing makes a lot of sense.

Hey Jid, which of the grot artillery options do you find the most useful? I like zzap guns but their range is limiting, especially if the rest of my army is zooming forward at top speed.

Kannons all the way. You get a better zzap gun and a worse lobba in one for less points than either. Can't beat that point efficiency.

Got it. Makes sense. Thanks!