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Basic grey knights end him with one hiT with force weaponst. Grey knights are the most played army right now. Hammer hand gives them the required strength. Are the days of using mephiston really gone?

Mephiston is the bane of my existence.

My friend plays a mech-heavy BA list with Mephiston in it, and Meph is the only thing that prevents my Necrons from ruining his day, every day.

Mephiston is so grossly overpowered even at his points cost that he is very viable. Given that he effectively has up to a 24" assault range, you should never be letting him out of cover unless you plan on using him to destroy something, and you just have to pick your battles. GKs with halberds can kill Meph often, so don't fight them. Instead go after the dreads.

I don't think Memphy is that OP against crons... have you tried mindshackle scarabs, or eldritch lanceteks?

In general, he's very paper/scissors/rock. Quite useless against Dark Eldar and Grey Knights, but armies like SW and Codex Marines can sometimes have a very hard time against him...

He's still very good. You have to use him more like a scalpel against GK and crons with MSS. He has more mobility than most units and can pick and choose his assaults for the most part. Just don't go mindlessly charging into something that's gonna beat you up.

bdix wrote:Basic grey knights end him with one hiT with force weaponst. Grey knights are the most played army right now. Hammer hand gives them the required strength. Are the days of using mephiston really gone?

Not really, because of few, simple facts:
1) Unless grey knight unit has IC leading them, it cannot actually use both hammerhand and activate it's nemesis force weapons.
2) IC needs to have mastery 2 if it wishes to activate it's own nemesis force weapon in addition to using hammerhand.
3) Mephiston has psychic hood, so he has 1/2 or 1/3 chance of nullifying the force weapon activation / hammerhand (squad / IC).

Yes, he is vulnerable, but chances of him actually dying are quite slim, unless you pit him against the best CC squad GK player has to offer, or let GK player charge him with 10+ Purifiers or 15+ Strikes.

Now, if you do something stupid like go to CC with Draigo, then Mephiston is toast.

I play vanilla marines and always focus my fire on mephiston to stop him ASAP. So yes, he is still viable as long as you are careful above said armies above.

yes mephy is still a good choice to take in your army, you just need to use him against units that DONT have a higher I value and with both S10 and re-rolls to hit he'll rip through any unit he can hit, you just have to support him a little rather than throwing him at your opponent

He is still viable, its just that all the codices since BA have reinforced his role as a counter attack unit to be used in a mech list rather than as a offensive beatstick in a jump pack/Land Raider/Stormraven list. He is still very powerful, there are just things which can take him down fairly easily if you just throw him forward. If you keep him hidden behind Rhinos until he is needed and not throw him unsupported into tough combats then he will still do fine.

Mephiston can take about 4-5 times as much damage as a tank, for the cost of a Land Raider. So yes, yes he is.
Bare in mind that most armies are not as abundant in Force Weapons as Grey Knights are.

Thanks for the feedback. I have used him with much success lately, but those mindstrike missiles on storm ravens were eating him alive and the force weapon thing just occured to me. I will keep playing him, just needed some positive reinforcement!

He is still viable but he is the bully that beats up the little guys. He can't go toe to toe with another badass special character or awesome squad but he can beat normal infantry squads to a pulp by himself.

Warboss Gutrip wrote:I don't think Memphy is that OP against crons... have you tried mindshackle scarabs, or eldritch lanceteks?

In general, he's very paper/scissors/rock. Quite useless against Dark Eldar and Grey Knights, but armies like SW and Codex Marines can sometimes have a very hard time against him...

His offensive power isn't the problem for me; it's the combination of his Initiative & mobility that I struggle with. In a mech list he almost always will have cover or else be locked in combat. MSS are an easy way to kill him, but his mobility allows him to cause more than enough damage just by avoiding those units that have a MSS buried in them. Right now I'm hoping some Wraiths in a counterassault unit will do a decent job of bringing him down, because nothing else the Necrons have other than a C'Tan do much to him. (It takes 25 Lancetek shots to bring him down on average).

bdix wrote:Thanks for the feedback. I have used him with much success lately, but those mindstrike missiles on storm ravens were eating him alive and the force weapon thing just occured to me. I will keep playing him, just needed some positive reinforcement!

Please don't misinterpret me, I think you should stop using Meph, then cover the model with garbage and set it on fire.

I would say hes still worth it. Sure hes less effective vs GKs, but hes overall still highly effective.
As others have said, you no longer just use him to run around and stomp face, you now need to be careful when using him vs GKs.

Running him with a squad to absorb wounds for him and help him against units that would smash him would be a wonderful idea.

azazel the cat wrote:

Warboss Gutrip wrote:I don't think Memphy is that OP against crons... have you tried mindshackle scarabs, or eldritch lanceteks?

In general, he's very paper/scissors/rock. Quite useless against Dark Eldar and Grey Knights, but armies like SW and Codex Marines can sometimes have a very hard time against him...

His offensive power isn't the problem for me; it's the combination of his Initiative & mobility that I struggle with. In a mech list he almost always will have cover or else be locked in combat. MSS are an easy way to kill him, but his mobility allows him to cause more than enough damage just by avoiding those units that have a MSS buried in them. Right now I'm hoping some Wraiths in a counterassault unit will do a decent job of bringing him down, because nothing else the Necrons have other than a C'Tan do much to him. (It takes 25 Lancetek shots to bring him down on average).

bdix wrote:Thanks for the feedback. I have used him with much success lately, but those mindstrike missiles on storm ravens were eating him alive and the force weapon thing just occured to me. I will keep playing him, just needed some positive reinforcement!

Please don't misinterpret me, I think you should stop using Meph, then cover the model with garbage and set it on fire.

Azazel, why 25 Lancetek shots? I tried to figure out the math behind it, but I couldn't. I'm just curious.

Mephiston is a pain, just because he is so easy to hide!

I personally think Mephiston's somewhat over-hyped:
-No invulnerable save makes him extremely vulnerable to melta and AP2 weapons (the majority of your squads should have 1-2 shots of each from melta, plasma, etc)
-No Eternal Warrior means that Force Weapons, Kossaro Khan, etc can drop him in one shot
-The chances of him Perils-ing himself are pretty good too, and there's nothing he can do about it
That said, I haven't faced him yet personally, but he is certainly killable... just really tough. So yes, you can continue using him and treat him as a fire-magnet.

Sasori wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

Warboss Gutrip wrote:I don't think Memphy is that OP against crons... have you tried mindshackle scarabs, or eldritch lanceteks?

In general, he's very paper/scissors/rock. Quite useless against Dark Eldar and Grey Knights, but armies like SW and Codex Marines can sometimes have a very hard time against him...

His offensive power isn't the problem for me; it's the combination of his Initiative & mobility that I struggle with. In a mech list he almost always will have cover or else be locked in combat. MSS are an easy way to kill him, but his mobility allows him to cause more than enough damage just by avoiding those units that have a MSS buried in them. Right now I'm hoping some Wraiths in a counterassault unit will do a decent job of bringing him down, because nothing else the Necrons have other than a C'Tan do much to him. (It takes 25 Lancetek shots to bring him down on average).

bdix wrote:Thanks for the feedback. I have used him with much success lately, but those mindstrike missiles on storm ravens were eating him alive and the force weapon thing just occured to me. I will keep playing him, just needed some positive reinforcement!

Please don't misinterpret me, I think you should stop using Meph, then cover the model with garbage and set it on fire.

Azazel, why 25 Lancetek shots? I tried to figure out the math behind it, but I couldn't. I'm just curious.

Mephiston is a pain, just because he is so easy to hide!

Yeah I was wondering about that too. (2/3) to hit, (5/6) to wound, (1/3) to get through the invuln ? (can't remember Mephy's invuln off the top of my head). That would give 4.63 wounds, so maybe a 4+ invuln? I guess that seems about right now, unless he doesn't have an invuln, embarrassing I can't remember that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:I personally think Mephiston's somewhat over-hyped:
-No invulnerable save makes him extremely vulnerable to melta and AP2 weapons (the majority of your squads should have 1-2 shots of each from melta, plasma, etc)
-No Eternal Warrior means that Force Weapons, Kossaro Khan, etc can drop him in one shot
That said, I haven't faced him yet personally, but he is certainly killable... just really tough. So yes, you can continue using him and treat him as a fire-magnet.

Aha, so he must be assuming a 4+ cover saver...

...which would take about 18 lancetek shots to kill him...yeah not sure where he got the 25 number.

Math error. Sorry. I was operating under the premise that Meph was Toughness 7, and thus would suffer only 5.61 unsaved wounds assuming a 4+ cover save.

riverhawks32 wrote:Running him with a squad to absorb wounds for him and help him against units that would smash him would be a wonderful idea.

Correct me if I am wrong here:

Mephiston is not an IC; therefore, he may not join units.

In response to the original thread's question:

So, you must think strategically with him on the battlefield against some opponents now. This does not diminish his value in my opinion.

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:

riverhawks32 wrote:Running him with a squad to absorb wounds for him and help him against units that would smash him would be a wonderful idea.

Correct me if I am wrong here:

Mephiston is not an IC; therefore, he may not join units.

In response to the original thread's question:

So, you must think strategically with him on the battlefield against some opponents now. This does not diminish his value in my opinion.

It's not "strategic".
Run at the enemy, try to stay in cover.
That's as far as any BA "strategy" goes.

Joey wrote:

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:

riverhawks32 wrote:Running him with a squad to absorb wounds for him and help him against units that would smash him would be a wonderful idea.

Correct me if I am wrong here:

Mephiston is not an IC; therefore, he may not join units.

In response to the original thread's question:

So, you must think strategically with him on the battlefield against some opponents now. This does not diminish his value in my opinion.

It's not "strategic".
Run at the enemy, try to stay in cover.
That's as far as any BA "strategy" goes.

Carefully picking and choosing your targets is a strategy, as is the route taken to get him to his targets. The inability to just "run at enemy, stay in cover" is the reason the OP started this thread.

Mephiston is still a beast.

It's easy to keep him safe from ranged fire (behind a transport, inside a borrowed Transport of your own, utilizing Terrain etc). He can't be insta-killed from practically any ranged weapons, not even S10 ones because he's base T6, until you're in his threat range, which is 19-24".

It would take roughly 8-9 Bs4 Meltagun shots to kill him, and thats assuming he's not getting any cover at all, which is unlikely. Add in Cover of 4+ and that number is doubled. This is a rough calculation of course, i'm not gonna bother doing the actual numbers

He's immune to Instant Death unless its from something that doesnt have a S value, like a force weapon but even against that he has Psychic Hood to attempt to nullify

Basic GK guys that wants to try this only wounds him on 6s, unless its from the hammer guys. He still hits before the Halberd guys, and he's got 6 S10 Force Weapon hits.

azazel the cat wrote:
Carefully picking and choosing your targets is a strategy, as is the route taken to get him to his targets. The inability to just "run at enemy, stay in cover" is the reason the OP started this thread.

Against Grey Knights, yeah. But not every army is as overpowered as they are.

I think that Guard (so many Ap 1/2 templates, lascannons & plasma), SW (so many lascannons, melta & plasma), Vulkan Marines (so much melta), DE (poison), GK (everything) and Orks (ever see army ants bring down a cow?) all have effective and widespread ways to kill Meph that don't require specialty units.

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong here:

Mephiston is not an IC; therefore, he may not join units.

Correct.

Tjolle79 wrote:
Basic GK guys that wants to try this only wounds him on 6s, unless its from the hammer guys. He still hits before the Halberd guys, and he's got 6 S10 Force Weapon hits.

Psyk-out grenades. He's a psyker, so he strikes at I1 against Grey Knights.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Psyk-out grenades. He's a psyker, so he strikes at I1 against Grey Knights.

Generally speaking, GKs with psykout grenades are on foot. So it's not likely that they will get the charge. So that's really only a minor consideration.

I did not know he was an independent character lol oops. Then again I play DA and Codex Marines so I have no one like that.

Every time I see Mephy on the table he generally gets melta/plasma/lascannon focused to death, or against GKs 4 Mindstrike Missiles get dropped on his head (no inv). Best case scenario he steamrolls a single unit, and the following shooting phase gets wiped off the table.

My Imperial Guard list has nearly 20 Meltaguns and Multimeltas, and 9 TL Lascannons at 1500pts. I only need one shooting phase to make him go away, cover or not. I'd far rather see Mephy across the table from me than a couple more Baal Preds or Razorbacks.

Even if Mephisto gets wiped off the board, he has served a similar role to a shrouding librarian. And he is usually overcompensated for. And if he survives (lets say you deny flanks, deep strike meltas or use TLOS blocking rhinos) he'll kill yet more units. I use him with the not-so-competative librarian dreadnoughts. A pair, because they compliment each other so well.

Dok wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Psyk-out grenades. He's a psyker, so he strikes at I1 against Grey Knights.

Generally speaking, GKs with psykout grenades are on foot. So it's not likely that they will get the charge. So that's really only a minor consideration.

Generally speaking, every Grey Knight comes with psyk-out grenades standard...