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I've been playing Warhammer 40k for about 11 years now. I began when I was about 12, after I fatefully entered a "Comics & Games" store looking for Pokemon cards.

With that said, I've been fairly consistently buying, building, painting, and playing the game with a local group over the last decade. I've taken a few short breaks on occasion due to school. However, I've been a big enthusiast of this hobby for a long time, despite the ludicrous raise in prices and otherwise poor customer service by GW.

My gaming group knows I loathe my dice. Regardless of my list building or tactics, I can, and will, lose because of random chance. Over the last year, I realized how stupid it was that I was getting so mad over something I simply could not control and I decided to take a break. I attended Alamo GT and Wargamescon last year, but haven't played regularly since. Add my last semester of college, church, a social life, and a soon-to-be girlfriend and you can see how I've had little time and little interest over the past 6 months or so to actually play the game.

At my Dad's urging, I attended a small 3-game tournament this past weekend. It really brought back a few realizations about this game for me and I'm seriously debating quitting outside of the occasional tournament at his request (as he really does love the game and it's kind of become the only thing he does outside of work).

Here are my thoughts:

- I didn't feel I "missed" the game at any point. In fact, it was nice not wasting 4 hours on a Saturday getting frustrated because I roll 1s and 2s.
- My rolling is still as bad as ever. I don't get mad about it any more, but it is a deterrent to actually playing the game
- Everything is incredibly expensive. I don't even want to entertain building a new army.
- The inability to switch army on the fly is off-putting. The way the game is designed means I can't change armies at will. Unlike a game like Starcraft or Call of Duty, where I can change my army or class every round, I am "stuck" with the same $500-600 army, whether I continue to enjoy playing it or not. Proxying is ok with a local group for a short while, but it annoys everyone, myself included, in the long run.
- There are very few actual tactics to the game. Realistically, whoever brings the most big guns and rolls decently wins on a consistent basis. I am aware manuevering and target priority are important, but everything is so fast and Shaken / Stunned results, which my dice love, are very unforgiving.

If you've made it this far, I appreciate your dedication to actually reading my rant. Any particular thoughts or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

What it really comes down to is a very simple question; do you still have fun? If the answer to that question is yes, then you keep playing, if it is no you don't. But because nothing is ever that black and white, you need to determine if it is a high priority for you anymore. You need to sit down and think about what will happen when you quit the hobby. what will you do with the free time that you have created?

I would simply just ask myself; Am I still having fun?

Best of luck to you!

If you're talking about retiring specifically from 40k, then you have some valid points. However, I'd recommend looking into some other games out there, like some spaceship gaming, or the new Dust table-top variation of their board game. Having different games gives you options and the dice mechanics are different.

For example, Extreme Thrust, a variation my old group developed from Full Thrust, has a custom ship builder with a data sheet. What this means is that your ship models do not have to be WYSIWYG, and so you can constantly change and adapt your designs to suit your needs. This effectively means you're not 'locked in' as you described you are with 40k.

As for the tactics, I do agree. Compared to several other games I've had the pleasure to play, 40k feels the most flat in terms of game-breaking decisions. Look around for some historical games, or naval games, as they require some more thinking with regards to tactics.

Take a break (don't SELL your stuff) from gaming and do something else for a while.

You're 23. Old enough to go out and consume alcohol and have fun with your peers.
The hobby won't mind. It always happens. IF, after a few years, you miss aspects of the hobby then duck back in for a look-see. THEN, if you don't feel the "call", THEN you can sell your stuff.

It's not uncommon to lose gamers between the ages of 17-23 here due to other pressures. IF they come back, they come back. If they don't, they don't. Gaming goes through cycles of popularity like everything else.

I left the game for about 3-4 years and never thought about it. But it still drew me back, and i have some inbuilt urge to go into a gamsworkshop lol

Take a break from it for abit, it will probably still be here when you get back.

As tyro_neophyte said, if you are still having fun getting together with your friends (and father) then stick with it despite your bad rolls.

Also play a game like Axis and Allies (All your ones and 2's will pay off) that system is a lower is better system, instead of a higher is better system.

If you play Axis and Allies you may find you do not roll as poorly as you thought. as you will notice how many 5's and 6's you now roll, when you needs 1-4.

Well, the idea that you can't swap out an army on the fly like that is pretty intrinsic to miniatures gaming as a whole. There's a lot more permanence and persistence than your average deathmatch and that's one of the reasons so many of us love this game.

If you really want to take a break from the game itself, rumors point to a new edition coming out this Summer. Wait til then to get back into things, and the tactics of the game will probably have been shaken up quite a bit. Otherwise, playing with your dad and friends can still be fun with bad dice rolls. Try to make some team games happen where a few bad dice rolls don't make as much of a difference. They can really help bring some fun to the game and the miniatures gaming hobby as a whole.

chromedog wrote:Take a break (don't SELL your stuff) from gaming and do something else for a while.

You're 23. Old enough to go out and consume alcohol and have fun with your peers.
The hobby won't mind. It always happens. IF, after a few years, you miss aspects of the hobby then duck back in for a look-see. THEN, if you don't feel the "call", THEN you can sell your stuff.

It's not uncommon to lose gamers between the ages of 17-23 here due to other pressures. IF they come back, they come back. If they don't, they don't. Gaming goes through cycles of popularity like everything else.

As an ‘oldie’ myself, I can tell you the above = some invaluable advice!

Wolf 11x wrote:Here are my thoughts:

- I didn't feel I "missed" the game at any point. In fact, it was nice not wasting 4 hours on a Saturday getting frustrated because I roll 1s and 2s.
- My rolling is still as bad as ever. I don't get mad about it any more, but it is a deterrent to actually playing the game
- Everything is incredibly expensive. I don't even want to entertain building a new army.
- The inability to switch army on the fly is off-putting. The way the game is designed means I can't change armies at will. Unlike a game like Starcraft or Call of Duty, where I can change my army or class every round, I am "stuck" with the same $500-600 army, whether I continue to enjoy playing it or not. Proxying is ok with a local group for a short while, but it annoys everyone, myself included, in the long run.
- There are very few actual tactics to the game. Realistically, whoever brings the most big guns and rolls decently wins on a consistent basis. I am aware manuevering and target priority are important, but everything is so fast and Shaken / Stunned results, which my dice love, are very unforgiving.

Here are my thoughts:

It appears that though you claim you don't get angry at your dice anymore, your first statement shows that to be untrue. Dice rolling is part of the game. Makes it random and nothing is guaranteed. In my book that makes it more accurate overall because even in the real world just because you have the perfect force doesn't guarantee you a win on the battlefield as so many factors get in the way. Dice is one way to bring that into a game setting.

Minis games are definitely not for the quick change if you don' t have the cash. *Any* mini game is like that, not just 40k. Not everyone can afford to have as many armies as I've had in my time playing GW games, but plenty have just as much fun without it. Another option is paper armies as well. One of my regular opponents has tight cash so occasionally will try new units or expand his army for bigger games with paper armies figs. We can play a bigger battle and he isn't sent to the poor house.

There are plenty of tactics to the game, just because your dice rolling makes your tactical choices not come out how you choose doesn't mean there are no tactics. We've all played those games where you can't roll more than a 1 or 2 on the Penetrating hit table. It happens.

End result for me: If you aren't having fun then stop playing. It is silly to spend your time doing something you don't enjoy. Looking at your complaints, though, it looks like aside from the ability to just swap out armies, your biggest problem is with dice. If your rolling upsets you that much then you definitely need to play a game where there is no dice rolling involved. If that really is the root of your problems perhaps it is time to realize it is just a game and enjoy the social aspects of it. I have a decent win percentage among my group of friends, but I get together with them to play games (and more often than not we play 3 or 4 way games to include more people) to socialize, have fun and laugh over some silly sci-fi and fantasy battles. For me that is what it is all about. Some of the most fun nights we've had involved an epic fail for myself and I still laugh about some of those moments. I would think even if you don't play at the local store too much you'd at least want to play with your dad for fun. I would love if I could get my dad to play even one of the mini games that I play with me.

Skriker

You could also try a game with 'Dice Averaging' where you take the dice and do not make most rolls that you do not need to.

For example if you have 10 shots, and you hit on a 3+, you get 6 hits, 3 misses, and you have to roll 1 die to determine if that last shot hit.

To explain further, it is as if you have rolled a 1,2,3,4,5,6,(For 4 hits and 2 misses then a 1or 2 (Miss) a 3 or 4(Hit) and a 5 or 6 (Hit) for the next 2 hits and a miss, and you have 1 shot you have to roll because you can not determine what would have happened.

It is a very interesting way to play.

I was in the exact same position myself about 4 years ago.

I had played since I was 9 until about 21. I had a lot of fun, and in the last few years my friend and I really played a lot - maybe 2-3 times a week, each of those days we'd squeeze in 3-4 games.

Then we both got broadband internet. We started playing Counter Strike Source. So 40k days gradually became Counter Strike days. He'd haul his PC up rather than his 40k stuff. We still played, but less and less. We both still collected stuff and showed it off a lot though.

Then I moved further away, and travelling to play some games became prohibitive. So we both basically stopped playing. Then I got a full time job, and I had no time to paint (since, well, with your first full time job, you don't know how to make the best of the time you do have). Then I met my fiancee, and all my free time went out the window.

However, I never sold my stuff - I simply packed it up and lugged it around whenever we moved.

3 years later, my fiancee and I are living together. I'm still working full time. One day, while going through my stuff, I see my tackle box full of Salamanders. Woah, I remember that game! I thought. I wonder what's new. I always liked Tyranids, but their models were always pretty terrible. I'll check the website...

A year later, my friend and I are both playing again, as is my brother and another friend. I've dived into the hobby far further than I did before, starting up both 40k and Fantasy, as well as branching out into non-GW games (Infinity), and also getting into resin kits (I still need to get that Heirophant built. I will one day), and putting a serious effort into making a good table to play on, now that I know how to utilize my free time more effectively.

Have a break. Don't sell your stuff, just lug it around whenever you move. Go out, drink, have fun. The hobby will be here for you when you've gotten all of that out of your system.

Well you can always take a break if you want.
And on the tactics side try playing fantasy in my opinion has way more in depth tactics that come into play with flanking and such.
YMMV though.

Take a break and re-evaluate later.

I took a year-and-a-half break right at the end of 4th edition. Now I am back and active, and really enjoy the game.

It doesn't have to go that way for you, but don't sell your stuff....box it up and take a break.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

I believe the best course for me is to continue to take a break and perhaps jump into a tournament once in a while.

I may look to other game systems for a change of pace.

So, I felt the EXACT same way you did last march after playing this game. Eventually, after analysis of how I was feeling, I wrote this article.

Until now, you've likely been taking 40k as a serious tactical excersize, and that's been the primary drive for the game (any hobbying or socializing aside). Every one of your specific points that you made shows that you've gotten to the "end" of 40k tactics, as far as you're concerned.

You've gotten to this point where any changes you can make, whether it be looking for a different army to field that would be just that much more powerful, or little improvements in things like movement and list building just aren't really making things much better anymore, especially compared to when you were newer.

In fact, you've hit such a diminishing return on your attempts to get better at the game, that the improvements aren't really affecting the outcome of the games as much as your die rolls are. Eventually it feels like you're at war with your dice, not your opponent. You've basically hit the point (different for every person), where you realise that you're approaching the limit for how much tactics you can milk out of 40k, and that it's become more or less a dice game, which is so frustrating, because you WANT it to be more tactically complex because you WANT to get better and feel that you've earned future victories despite greater and greater odds. Tactics is what you do, and you don't want it to end.

Unfortunately, for you and I, it has. Basically, there are two options left to you. The first is to just start believing that there will always be a next step up of tactical genius, and that gains you make will always be relevant every time you play. As you are probably able to see right away, though, this tends to lead to delusion pretty quickly. There is a dakka member named dashofpepper who actually gambled a mortgage payment on a game of 40k, solid in his belief that 40k was like chess - skill was all that mattered, you can always get better, and thus you can always win by pure force of will.

The other way is to realise that you've gotten to the end of tactics, and start looking for something else out of 40k. It's not to say that you won't continue to get better over time, but that's just not the point of it anymore. Think of it like one of those classic RPGs. If you played Chrono Trigger, or Secret of Mana, or FF7, odds are that once you beat them, you still went back and played them again at some point. I can't tell you how many times I've beaten Diablo II, even though the challenge went out of it after the first couple of times of playing. My point is, now that you've "beaten" 40k, it's time to look at the replay value, rather than the challenge.

In the case of 40k, the replay value is actually pretty intense. There's still all that modelling you get to do, and there are still so many kinds of different combinations of things you can play with. There are also thinks outside of the tactics like creating stories, and being social. 40k has a lot to offer apart from just tactics. Expanding your appreciation of the hobby from just that one thing that was important is going to be more or less necessary. If you're not interested in these other things, though, then retirement is probably your best option, at least for now...

Ailaros wrote:The other way is to realise that you've gotten to the end of tactics, and start looking for something else out of 40k. It's not to say that you won't continue to get better over time, but that's just not the point of it anymore. Think of it like one of those classic RPGs. If you played Chrono Trigger, or Secret of Mana, or FF7, odds are that once you beat them, you still went back and played them again at some point. I can't tell you how many times I've beaten Diablo II, even though the challenge went out of it after the first couple of times of playing. My point is, now that you've "beaten" 40k, it's time to look at the replay value, rather than the challenge.

I really disagree on the lack of tactics in a 40k game. If you just throw your units piece meal and willy nilly at your opponent without thought you will lose no matter how well you roll the dice. The more tactically you think in the game, though, makes the dice more important. You are doing the right things so that a bad roll can really mess you up and a good roll will help you. This is no different than tactics in real life. The generals and their underlings can look at strategy until they are blue in the face and expect their troops to tactically carry out their plans, but that doesn't mean tactics always win the battle for you. There are so many random elements involved in fighting a battle that just rolling some dice doesn't even come close to really simulating it. In 40k, except when running away and the occasional berserk chaos dread or charging into a nasty terror causing opponet, your troops *always* hear your commands clearly and *always* immediately act on them without error or confusion or mishearing your orders. Rolling dice adds that random factor back into the mix. When rounds are hitting all around you, you don't always hear your orders perfectly or clearly or you "think" you heard them, but really misunderstood them. Bad dice rolling does not take tactics out of the game in the least, but will certainly mess up your plans more with tactics than good rolling will help you without them. Even in games that are better written than 40k the dice still have an impact. Look at the real world, though, the british won some very lopsided battles during the colonial period due to better training and better equipment, but they didn't win *every* battle despite having all of the same advantages every time.

I do agree, though, that the hobby is bigger than just rolling dice. I love the modeling aspects as well. Now if I could just get better at painting an army fully before getting bored and painting something else I'd have at least *1* fully painted army instead of a bunch of armies with a few units painted in each.

Skriker

Skriker wrote:I really disagree on the lack of tactics in a 40k game. If you just throw your units piece meal and willy nilly at your opponent without thought you will lose no matter how well you roll the dice.

Right, my point isn't that there are NO tactics, or that there is a literal end to how good you can get. What I was saying is that improvements in your playing have diminishing return the better you get. Little improvements in list building and deployment make are very easy to learn, and can make a big impact on the tame when you're just starting out. Eventually, though, you get to a point where the amount of time and effort required to make even little improvements becomes immense, and they no longer matter compared to things that you can't control (like your dice). At some point, for every person, they realise that they just can't take it anymore, and they give up. The OP is to this point.

40k has tactics, but it's not one of those games that you can just get better at indefinitely, and have equal amounts of improvement have equal effects on the result of the game. If all you're playing 40k for is to get better at playing 40k, eventually you will become bitter and disappointed.

I started out with 40k when I was 12 as well and can sympathise with the OP. I recommend the OP in taking a hiatus away from GW/40k. It sounds like you’ve been burnt out by a multitude of issues specifically with 40k/GW. 40k as a game and GW as a company currently aren’t in the best shape anyway compared to the past.

Personally I recommend trying some of the cheaper “non GW” hobby options out there. Last year, I jumped ship to Warmachine largely because it ticked all the boxes that GW hadn’t:

• Cost and amount of models a lot less to start a force.
• PP handles itself better than GW (no secrecy, embargoes or regional pricing).
• Rules tighter than GW.
• Easier to dramatically change up a list (a single $10-20 model can dramatically change up a list).
• Yearly releases update all factions and global storyline is progressed constantly.

I’m only listing the above points my own personal reasons why I jumped ship (as an example). I strongly recommend you make up a list of your own entailing what you dislike about 40k or want in a tabletop hobby and try to find out something out there that fulfils this. Alternately, you could always quit GW but not 40k. HBMC and his crew use their existing 40k miniatures for FFG 40K roleplay.

Take a break, chuck the models in a dark place. They won't mind. They will be there if you ever decide to come back. And if you do come back and still arn't interested, then sell them. The good news is that at the rate GW is raising the prices you can expect to sell them at slightly below the future NIB price and make more back then you paid for them originally.

Wolf 11x wrote:
- Everything is incredibly expensive. I don't even want to entertain building a new army.
- The inability to switch army on the fly is off-putting. The way the game is designed means I can't change armies at will. Unlike a game like Starcraft or Call of Duty, where I can change my army or class every round, I am "stuck" with the same $500-600 army, whether I continue to enjoy playing it or not. Proxying is ok with a local group for a short while, but it annoys everyone, myself included, in the long run.
- There are very few actual tactics to the game. Realistically, whoever brings the most big guns and rolls decently wins on a consistent basis. I am aware manuevering and target priority are important, but everything is so fast and Shaken / Stunned results, which my dice love, are very unforgiving.

If you've made it this far, I appreciate your dedication to actually reading my rant. Any particular thoughts or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Cost is the reason why I quit...before getting back in. My opinion is, if you're giving it so much thought that you have to ask us, then do so.

Shaken and stunned are unforgiving? Better shaken than wrecked.

Cost is also the reason I temporarily quit... but I ended up playing Magic: The Gathering - Standard!

Ailaros wrote:Right, my point isn't that there are NO tactics, or that there is a literal end to how good you can get. What I was saying is that improvements in your playing have diminishing return the better you get. Little improvements in list building and deployment make are very easy to learn, and can make a big impact on the tame when you're just starting out. Eventually, though, you get to a point where the amount of time and effort required to make even little improvements becomes immense, and they no longer matter compared to things that you can't control (like your dice). At some point, for every person, they realise that they just can't take it anymore, and they give up. The OP is to this point.

40k has tactics, but it's not one of those games that you can just get better at indefinitely, and have equal amounts of improvement have equal effects on the result of the game. If all you're playing 40k for is to get better at playing 40k, eventually you will become bitter and disappointed.

Ok. I gotcha! That makes your position much clearer and agree with you now. Thanks for the clarification.

Skriker

I agree with the majority of posters. Put the models away take some time off you can always come back later.

I just came back after a decade away it is what you make of it.

Ah yes, the need for a break from wargaming experienced by men in their early twenties.

You'll be back

Flashman wrote:
You'll be back

QFT

Wolf 11x wrote: ...and a soon-to-be girlfriend...

I've never heard of such a thing.

Is she that cute girl at work with the pig tails and the friendly smile whose desk is next to yours and everytime you set eyes upon her your heart stops beating for a moment and thats a major problem because the only time you ever see her is when you bump into her in the photo copier room and she always says "hi" in a way that signifies that she wants to be more than friends but your darn lips can never form the words that her gaze cuts into your heart like a golden arrow takeing out a leaping deer and then by the time you finally are able to say something the only thing that come out of your mouth is a stupid little comment about the weather and then after she leaves you curse your own weak spin for letting you down when all you needed to do was come up with the courage to ask her out to coffee but the next day you find out that she's now going out with Chad who you can never compete with becuase he's way cuter and makes twice as much money as you do and now you're reduced to standing outside their bedroom window when they make love and grinding yourself up against the wood in an attempt to be close to your angel the one you love and every night when it rains you climb to the roof of your home and scream into the cold unfeeling sky... "OH GOD WHY SARAH!?! WHY DON'T YOU LOVE ME!?!"

Nut up and ask her out man, lock that gak down quick before that fether Chad steals your girl too.

I put a lot of thought into each army purchase I made.

Each army I made is composed differently, plays differently, and so forth. This helps a long way towards keeping me playing the game.

I always decide on the core idea of the army, followed by what units I like and how to make them effective. I then flush out a full force organization chart worth of models, planned before purchase, and always looking for deals/sales for the models I am looking for.

As for the hobby, you make a single payment and can use your models forever. Then you effectively spend about $50 USD every five years on new codexes and rules. Pretty damn cost efficient. If you have good people to play with in your area, and enjoy playing the game, then simply stop buying stuff for a time. You can always play with a friends army, while they play yours. There is no need to abandon the game simply because the price deterrent is there. I save money personally and just wait for deals to show before I make the army plunge. Buying things new are for the people who are just adding to the army, battle forces and battalions are the way to start an army, preferably with the old 30% or more discount from other places, like ebay.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

Wolf 11x wrote: ...and a soon-to-be girlfriend...

I've never heard of such a thing.

Is she that cute girl at work with the pig tails and the friendly smile whose desk is next to yours and everytime you set eyes upon her your heart stops beating for a moment and thats a major problem because the only time you ever see her is when you bump into her in the photo copier room and she always says "hi" in a way that signifies that she wants to be more than friends but your darn lips can never form the words that her gaze cuts into your heart like a golden arrow takeing out a leaping deer and then by the time you finally are able to say something the only thing that come out of your mouth is a stupid little comment about the weather and then after she leaves you curse your own weak spin for letting you down when all you needed to do was come up with the courage to ask her out to coffee but the next day you find out that she's now going out with Chad who you can never compete with becuase he's way cuter and makes twice as much money as you do and now you're reduced to standing outside their bedroom window when they make love and grinding yourself up against the wood in an attempt to be close to your angel the one you love and every night when it rains you climb to the roof of your home and scream into the cold unfeeling sky... "OH GOD WHY SARAH!?! WHY DON'T YOU LOVE ME!?!"

Nut up and ask her out man, lock that gak down quick before that fether Chad steals your girl too.

Exalted. If only I could exalt this post multiple times over!

I agree, taking a break but keeping your models is the best course of action for the time being. Come back at some point, try it again (maybe 6th ed?) and see how you feel then.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

Wolf 11x wrote: ...and a soon-to-be girlfriend...

I've never heard of such a thing.

Is she that cute girl at work with the pig tails and the friendly smile whose desk is next to yours and everytime you set eyes upon her your heart stops beating for a moment and thats a major problem because the only time you ever see her is when you bump into her in the photo copier room and she always says "hi" in a way that signifies that she wants to be more than friends but your darn lips can never form the words that her gaze cuts into your heart like a golden arrow takeing out a leaping deer and then by the time you finally are able to say something the only thing that come out of your mouth is a stupid little comment about the weather and then after she leaves you curse your own weak spin for letting you down when all you needed to do was come up with the courage to ask her out to coffee but the next day you find out that she's now going out with Chad who you can never compete with becuase he's way cuter and makes twice as much money as you do and now you're reduced to standing outside their bedroom window when they make love and grinding yourself up against the wood in an attempt to be close to your angel the one you love and every night when it rains you climb to the roof of your home and scream into the cold unfeeling sky... "OH GOD WHY SARAH!?! WHY DON'T YOU LOVE ME!?!"

Nut up and ask her out man, lock that gak down quick before that fether Chad steals your girl too.

For personal reasons, she opted to put off dating til after her birthday this year. Needless to say, at 12:01 the next day, we are going out.