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I have tried to use Lilith in my matches and at times she does amazing(ie she ran over a barracade and ran to a squad of warriors and dropped them in about one to two turns.)) and other times she does nothing. The times she does nothing is probably my fualt though. So I wondering if you guys have any tips on using lilith.

dont.

yea she has a power weapon, and a crazy number of attacks..... but the lack of drugs and her str and t 3, makes her somewhat useless to actually hurt stuff. if she had re rolls on wounds, or furious charge or something built in, then she would be much better.

the other issue is she competes in a pretty kick butt HQ selection. the baron, duke, basic archons, haemys, and even vect all perform much better and are more reliable then lilith. the only time she really does ok is fighting low toughness hordes. so IG, nid gaunts, etc. but then her power weapon ability is wasted...

vrs MEQ or anything T4 she wounds on 5+. so normally on the charge she gets about 8-9 attacks, hits on 3+ for say 6 hits, then wounds on 5+ for only 2 wounds. she then faces a ton of attacks back that hit her on 4+ and probally wound on 3+ or better.....meaning she needs to make a ton of invun saves or she goes down hard.

end result is she is just not effective or worth it.

I know their is better HQs. I still use them but I have wanted to use her since the people in my gaming group are honestly worried about her. So I wanted strategies with her.

DarthSpader is right...don't she used to be uber scarry, with picking drugs costing half and having a shadowfield. Now she's just lost alot, but you seem determined.

I would play on their fears (be a good archon now). If they truly fear her exploit that by letting the rest of your army go unnoticed until it is too late. Keep Lilith to the edge of the board and have her go after "shooty" squads with other wyches to keep the fear about her alive, things like DC and warbosses/nobs should be avoided. Devastators however are a good target. Use another skimmer to block hers. Put these two on one flank, ravagers in the middle, and everything else on the other side. Make them choose Lilith or everything else. Vet players will ignore her so they could be a problem, against them save the points and don't run her. Others shouldn't notice until you have cleared the opposite flank and are closing in on the rest of the army. The biggest problem is she costs the same as a warrior squad in a venom so that's a lost DL.

Against horde guard let her go in after the guys. Keep her away from PW/PF. A haemy with her then could be a big edge for the 3++ and FNP.

Give her a large squad of wyches or bloodbrides, a raider, and go. She's effectively a wych with more attacks and no drugs attach a haemy for a pain token to give them a boost ans some poison attacks in cc.

DarthSpader wrote:dont.

yea she has a power weapon, and a crazy number of attacks..... but the lack of drugs and her str and t 3, makes her somewhat useless to actually hurt stuff. if she had re rolls on wounds, or furious charge or something built in, then she would be much better.

the other issue is she competes in a pretty kick butt HQ selection. the baron, duke, basic archons, haemys, and even vect all perform much better and are more reliable then lilith. the only time she really does ok is fighting low toughness hordes. so IG, nid gaunts, etc. but then her power weapon ability is wasted...

vrs MEQ or anything T4 she wounds on 5+. so normally on the charge she gets about 8-9 attacks, hits on 3+ for say 6 hits, then wounds on 5+ for only 2 wounds. she then faces a ton of attacks back that hit her on 4+ and probally wound on 3+ or better.....meaning she needs to make a ton of invun saves or she goes down hard.

end result is she is just not effective or worth it.

Your math is a bit off here. First of all most things in the game hit her on a 5+, not a 4+. Also, and its been about 6 months since I had to check, but I'm pretty sure she kills closer to 3 MeQs on the charge, or at least she's primed to finish off 5 MeQ in two turns of CC. That to me is a perfectly designed CC character, I've never understood peoples disdain for her. Yes she's much better at killing troops then dedicated assault units, until you combine her with blood brides with three shardnets, and then she can take on just about anything in the game (Toughness 6 and less of course ).

I've also used her in WWP lists, bounced off a couple wrack squads on her way out of the portal, pick up a couple pain tokens, and then she's just nails.


A note about her resiliency. With her high WS, invulnerable save, FNP and shards, she really is quite difficult to take out in CC.


It takes 27 S 4 WS 4 attacks to reliably do 1 wound (if she has FNP). 27! That's 27 attacks that some how got through her shards! Just to do one wound!

Of course what you have to be careful with are strength 6+ attacks, so hidden power fists can be a bit of an issue, but with shards the chances of a single power fist getting through are actually rather small (A single PFist only has about a 9.26% chance of success against her).

Anyway, she's not quite the force multiplier that other HQ's are, but she can be nasty if pitted against the right units, and you shouldn't let her low strength deter you, throw enough attacks and you'll get you some wounds.

I wish she had a Shadowfield... Powerfist? Poof! Does nothing.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:I wish she had a Shadowfield... Powerfist? Poof! Does nothing.

I miss the Shadowfield, but a 3+ invulnerable isn't the worst thing on earth, plus it at least works past the first strike (assuming that first strike wasn't S6+ ).

I use her to great effect:

pack her in a wych unit and add them to a raider
set the raider up along the edge of your DP zone sideways
pivot the raider for a "free" 3" move
move the raider 12" and get out 2"
run about 4"
charge enemy unit 6"
kill unit
pull troll face and utter the words "you mad bro?"

so thats a turn one charge and she'll be in a FNP unit so she'll hang around for a while

DarthSpader wrote:the other issue is she competes in a pretty kick butt HQ selection. the baron, duke, basic archons, haemys, and even vect all perform much better and are more reliable then lilith. the only time she really does ok is fighting low toughness hordes. so IG, nid gaunts, etc. but then her power weapon ability is wasted...

This is a little ill informed... i did this up for another forum about Drazhar bu as lilith is in the example here we go...

Drazhar was given 2 profiles so we can also compare demiklaives in the combats. I also figured adding Lilith and Vect would be relevant…

First up – all the DE characters were given the charge against a 10 man MEQ unit with a single powerfist on the sarge – your typical tactical squad.
Drazhar with +2 attacks fairs worst with 2.33 kills. Lilith manages 2.44 and Drazhar with +2 strength manages 2.77. Vect hits a whopping 4.14 kills thanks to preferred enemy.

Points per kill puts Drazhar in 4th and 3rd place with Lilith in 2nd and Vect 1st.

That said, what happens when the Tacticals fight back? Lilith takes 0.48 unsaved normal wounds and 0.09 unsaved powerfist wounds. Vect takes 0.27 and 0.13. Drazhar takes 0.27 (+2A) or 0.26 (+2S) and then 0.83 from the fist.

What makes this so interesting is that against normal attacks, Drazhar is the most survivable of the 3 due to his higher toughness and 2+ save. Yes he has the highest chance of a power fist dealing a wound but with darting strike he may be able to avoid it all together. Vect is second to draz against normal attacks but has a massive 13% chance of dying to a powerfist sarge! That’s terrible for a 200+ point model. Lilith is more balanced with only a 9% of instant death against a near on 50% chance of taking a wound from the remaining marines.

Giving them all furious charge changes the game again…

Drazhar with +2 S fairs worst now 2.77 kills as before. Drazhar with +2A manages 3.11 and Lilith 3.66. Vect stays at 4.14 kills thanks to preferred enemy but gains nothing from furious charge.

Points per kill puts Drazhar in 4th and 3rd place with vect in 2nd and Lilith jumps to 1st.

When the Tacticals fight back - Lilith takes 0.39 unsaved normal wounds and 0.09 unsaved powerfist wounds. Vect takes 0.27 and 0.13. Drazhar takes 0.25 (+2A) or 0.26 (+2S) and then 0.83 from the fist.

Again Drazhar takes the normal marines with little danger but the fist sarge will hurt. Vect remains as before but Lilith takes less normal wounds due to higher kills.

So for her cost vs kills - she is very good compared to the 'big hitters' in the dex!

Cost per kills is one thing, but the comparison is really flawed because you overlook the bonuses of the other characters... (like seizing on a 4+...), instead simply focusing on points per kill... which, if used as the only criteria, would make Eldrad Ulthran one of the worst characters in the game

Your comparison also doesn't account for Riposte or Onslaught on Drazhar...

@warboss gutrip - true - i forgot about riposte and onslaught - i will have another look at the numbers.

The reason i felt this was relevant is that we started talking kills and nothing else. As lilith does zero to the army (as does drazhar for the most part) its relvant to show points per kill.

Yes vect has seize on a 4+ but thats it. Is it worth the extra 70+ points over lilith when she is more durable overall and with FC, better point for point on kills?

I see her run effectively in a venom with other wyches, quick assaults and back to the transport. Just have to focus on the more shooty enemy units (it happens to me on occasion from her)

Massaen wrote:@warboss gutrip - true - i forgot about riposte and onslaught - i will have another look at the numbers.

The reason i felt this was relevant is that we started talking kills and nothing else. As lilith does zero to the army (as does drazhar for the most part) its relvant to show points per kill.

Yes vect has seize on a 4+ but thats it. Is it worth the extra 70+ points over lilith when she is more durable overall and with FC, better point for point on kills?

Don't forget Vect's badass shooting attack And, whilst a really minor thing, he does have 4 wounds... he also allows you to take a Court which, whilst not a big deal, is still pretty good... and, don't forget, with his re-roll to wound he does a number on enemy Eldar and Dark Eldar...

ShadarLogoth wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:I wish she had a Shadowfield... Powerfist? Poof! Does nothing.

I miss the Shadowfield, but a 3+ invulnerable isn't the worst thing on earth, plus it at least works past the first strike (assuming that first strike wasn't S6+ ).

Oh, I meant Clone Field

the other thing to remember, with the other HQ slots, is they can provide army wide bonuses that lilith does'nt.

- baron - stealth to his unit, +1 to dice for picking sides, big advantage to hit and run for hellions.

- the duke, buffs a warrior/TB squad poison, army wide drug boost, army wide vehicle deepstrike

- vect sieze init on 4+, plus pretty bad ass in combat

- drazhar not so much, and overpriced in my opinion

- archons/succubus are lower cost do it all types (custom big thing here)

- haemys - free pain tokens...pretty much required in most lists

- urien free pain tokens, plus wracks and grots get much better. hes also decent in CC.

lillith - no army buffs, no squad buffs, and while she may come out a touch ahead in CC if she has backup, she still remains T3 and S3.... even with FC after the 1st round she is going to be stuck in cc for awhile unless shes fighting something weaker then her. awsome model, and i love the fluff...she was the first DE model fromt he new release i picked up and painted.... but after close to 30 games with her, i just found she did not really do much or meet expectations. for HQ i prefer a group of haemys, a simple archon, or the baron with some beasts.

DarthSpader wrote:
lillith - no army buffs, no squad buffs, and while she may come out a touch ahead in CC if she has backup, she still remains T3 and S3.... even with FC after the 1st round she is going to be stuck in cc for awhile unless shes fighting something weaker then her. awsome model, and i love the fluff...she was the first DE model fromt he new release i picked up and painted.... but after close to 30 games with her, i just found she did not really do much or meet expectations. for HQ i prefer a group of haemys, a simple archon, or the baron with some beasts.

She continues to dish out right at 2 casualties/turn against MeQ after the first round of combat, so she's near statistical likely hood of chomping through and MSU unit in two turns, which in my book is perfect. If the unit is bigger, back her up, no big deal there. But if you ran some games with her and she struggled, I can certainly see the change in pace, I've just never had trouble getting what I want out of her (HeyOh!...) .

Well, the point is she's not a stand-alone character. She is great when backed up by Bloodbrides. If you hate her because she's fragile then take a look at the codex. She can belt out a ton of attacks, normally striking on 3+. If you think that she cannot be a viable unit because she is poor when unsupported, may I ask how do you win with Dark Eldar? Everything has to be a coordinated unit. If you just put them everywhere, you will lose constantly.

all im saying is that compared to other HQ slot special characters she comes up short imho. the other characters have a way to compensate for low T and S. acsess to drugs, or initial pain tokens, agonizers, venom blades and so on. lillith has none of this. her one strong ability granted is her whole mess of attacks.... i think she has the most attacks avialable to a single special character in the 40k world, and a crazy high WS to boot. my only issue is the fact all those attacks need such high wound rolls... i would rather have 6 attacks from an archon wounding on 4+ (giving me about 2-3) for less points then lilliths. and if she ends up fighting something with a toughness higher then 4 shes pretty ,much hooped. vrs anything with an agonizer or other simaler weapon (vect, haemys, etc) wich really dont care.

my other gripe is brides compete for TB in my army for elite slots. ive also tried running her with wyches... i just find i would rather have other HQ slots wich provide army wide benefits or boost other squads, then a character who might kill a unit of marines in a game - if she has help.

DarthSpader wrote:all im saying is that compared to other HQ slot special characters she comes up short imho. the other characters have a way to compensate for low T and S. acsess to drugs, or initial pain tokens, agonizers, venom blades and so on. lillith has none of this. her one strong ability granted is her whole mess of attacks.... i think she has the most attacks avialable to a single special character in the 40k world, and a crazy high WS to boot. my only issue is the fact all those attacks need such high wound rolls... i would rather have 6 attacks from an archon wounding on 4+ (giving me about 2-3) for less points then lilliths. and if she ends up fighting something with a toughness higher then 4 shes pretty ,much hooped. vrs anything with an agonizer or other simaler weapon (vect, haemys, etc) wich really dont care.

Pretty sure a Khorne Demon weapon character can get up like 16 or 17, but yeah she's up there towards the top for sure.

Also, she still averages just over a wound per turn against T5 and T6, so she's not exactly worthless against anything over T4, and it's really not hard to get two pain tokens on a character.

my other gripe is brides compete for TB in my army for elite slots. ive also tried running her with wyches... i just find i would rather have other HQ slots wich provide army wide benefits or boost other squads, then a character who might kill a unit of marines in a game - if she has help.

That seems to e the part that your missing. She can single handedly take out an MSU troop selection a turn (including your opponents assault phase), no help needed. In fact the optimal deployment for her is she jumps out to gobble one unit, her friends gobble another, then they can join up with a pair of PT's and take on just about anything.

Untill she gets hit by the power fist and fails her save. Or has o take 5 saves from those marines.... 3++ ain't that awesome. By herself she will drop faster then the Montreal Canadians in the playoff standings. She dosent really get decent untill she owns a few pain tokens.. But how to acquire these? Via haemys, or talos? She certainly won't earn it by herself in combat, unless she has some help.

DarthSpader wrote:Untill she gets hit by the power fist and fails her save. Or has o take 5 saves from those marines.... 3++ ain't that awesome. By herself she will drop faster then the Montreal Canadians in the playoff standings. She dosent really get decent untill she owns a few pain tokens.. But how to acquire these? Via haemys, or talos? She certainly won't earn it by herself in combat, unless she has some help.

Hmm. Well, first of all there's about dozen characters in the entire game that have access to a better save then a 3++ (assuming a 2+ is equal to or worse), so a 3++ is almost the best you can get, not sure what makes it not that great. As I mentioned earlier, those 5 wounds are going to be hard to come by considering she has shards, high WS, and a 3++, and it's really not hard to get her FNP as well. True, one out of ten Pfists will kill her, just like one out of seven melta shots will pop a land raider, but people seem to take those still for some reason, and one out of seven missiles will kill a Ravager, but I'm willing to bet that factoid hasn't kept three of them out of every list you've ever made.

The pointed is you accept similar risks with every other unit in the game.

She certainly won't earn it by herself in combat, unless she has some help.

She certainly won't? Why? She statically should. Are her dice weighted in her opponents favoured? MSU is king in most lists, and Lilith ruthlessly punishes this tendency.