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wondering if normal killing blow can effect Archaon.

At first we had said no because the big book lists him as Monstrous Cav, but then i saw this in the big book faq...

Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

I think it doesn't apply to Archaon because he can't be unmounted and it's more focused on characters with optional monstrous mounts like a normal chaos lord, and given that we can only assume Archaon would be normal infantry without his horse as there is nothing to say what he is without his monstrous cav horse.

Thoughts?

Don't have any of my books with me but the chaos lord on jugger is also a character mounting monstrous cavalry and I'm pretty sure he suffers from killing blow so if Archaon doesn't have any special rule a.k.a. Eternal Warrior from 40k i'd say yes he can be slain. I remember there are two types of killing blows maybe only one of those works, not sure, I just joined the fantasy wagon since the GK threw me out of 40k.

Archaon can not be taken on foot so no he can not be KB'd

however he can be heroic killing blowed.

really? I mean Archaeon is a man, and definitly nothing monstrous about him and he is basically an uber chaos lord, so basically his is infantry no?

DakkaOrk007 wrote:really? I mean Archaeon is a man, and definitly nothing monstrous about him and he is basically an uber chaos lord, so basically his is infantry no?

Does he get a LOS for standing next to a chaos warrior? Nope! So he is not infantry

It is a bit of a can of worms on SC that are mounted as they do not have individual options but, it is almost always played that yes he can be KB'd. Since he would not count as a monster or monstrous infantry if dismounted he can be KB'd. Since the ruling that is how I have seen it played everywhere, including some tournaments. Your mileage may vary though. As always discuss it with the person you are playing against before you field him.

Yeah, his horsey isn't an option. His unit type per the BRB is MC. That's really all you need to know. There is no individual unit type otherwise listed for Acharon. I.e., nowhere does it say Infantry (or anything else KBable). He's only got MC.

zentdiam wrote:It is a bit of a can of worms on SC that are mounted as they do not have individual options but, it is almost always played that yes he can be KB'd. Since he would not count as a monster or monstrous infantry if dismounted he can be KB'd. Since the ruling that is how I have seen it played everywhere, including some tournaments. Your mileage may vary though. As always discuss it with the person you are playing against before you field him.

Except the UK, where every place I know of he cannot be KB'd, just HKB, as he is NOT Cavalry or Infantry which are the only two relevant unit types that can be KB'd

I do not have my codex with me atm to check, but I am 99% sure that Tyrion falls into the same category that Archaeon does in this regard. No one ever mentions him because no one ever fields him.

He is listed as MC and cannot be fielded as a model on foot.

For the record, we also play it that Archaeon and Tyrion cannot be KB'd, but can be HKB'd.

Seems like a loophole more then how things should be, I guess it comes down to whether you stick purely with the facts throughout the rules and army books, which would then suggest they can't be KB'd because of neither being one or the other required to be KB'd ooooooooooorrrr if you play by what I would say is just common sense in that Archaeon... Tyrion, are just troops on a mount men riding a steed or dragon and like any other man/troop should be KB'able.

At least thats my take on it.

With me RAW vs RAI raw wins every time

Just because Archaon MUST take his horse doesn't mean he CAN"T be on foot. The horse, like any ridden monster, can be shot out from beneath him, leaving him on foot, and thus he would be infantry.

You can not shoot a horse from underneath a character though

Johnny-Crass wrote:You can not shoot a horse from underneath a character though

To be fair, when its put like that, it feels more like an oversight in the rules, same goes for a lot of the knights and such the inability to peg the mount instead of the rider.

So let me get this straight. You are saying if I fire a cannon at a Bretonnian KoTR and I kill his horse but he makes his blessing save he should be walking around on foot?

Being able to shoot a horse from underneath its rider (for cavalry) is definately not an oversight in the rules. Its a game balance issue as well as making the game easier to play.

As far as being able to shoot the mount from underneath a rider, you can do that when it comes to most Monstrous Mounts.

It just so happens that Archaeon and Tyrion are few of the examples in which the mount cannot be shot from underneath them. As it stands right now, they cannot be fielded on foot. The FAQ certainly muddied the issue as it *seems* like they would be infantry, but they are listed as MC, and cannot ever become infantry.

I have no clue what the RAI was for the situation, as it could go either way. RAW it looks like they can't be KB'd but the argument could be made both ways. That being said, our gaming group made a decision, and we went with they can't be KB'd.

Personal opinion, and the reason we chose to play it as such, is that its rather silly that some chump might get a lucky shot in on Archaeon the Everchosen of Chaos, and kill him outright with one swing. I don't like the idea that he could be KB'd. Now a Heroic Killing Blow is an entirely different story.

Aerethan wrote:Just because Archaon MUST take his horse doesn't mean he CAN"T be on foot. The horse, like any ridden monster, can be shot out from beneath him, leaving him on foot, and thus he would be infantry.

I suggest you reread the actual rules, and note that only Monsters can be shot out; not Cavalry or Monstrous Cavalry

Johnny-Crass wrote:So let me get this straight. You are saying if I fire a cannon at a Bretonnian KoTR and I kill his horse but he makes his blessing save he should be walking around on foot?

Realistically,a bertonian moving or even then not at all, getting his horse taken out from under him and failing there ward is going to result in dead bret either way, the horse would fold in under him, his face would hit the floor with incrediable force while the horse doing a forward roll from the cannonball connected to him at the feet would pretty much crush, break and roll the bret with it. Would apply a weakness to the heavily armored cavalry that run off 1+saves due to barding. Of course thats from a realistic point of view. Its a fantasy game and its appreciable.

Small arms have to roll to see who they hit when there are two units locked in combat to see which they hit, the same is plausible for mounts, you also have to I believe see who you hit when aiming for a character on a dragon/steed that is optional afaik so the same can be doable again?
It would just be an inconvenience for GW to have to make a compensation for the event of mounts actually dying before there rider, make it so they take damage equal to how far they moved when they hit the floor to implement losing your horse in stride n then detaching said horseless person should they survive from the unit but allowing them to join a foot unit or something.

Though I do understand this is the wrong place for rule speculation/creation so forgive me xD


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though to return to the post and keep in mind my original reply wasn't under the assumption we were talking about units as opposed to characters which are a different element altogether. A character losing there mount doesn't essentially remove them from the game, it only forces them to walk.

MC is a special type. MC takes the largest wounds of rider/mount. You can't shoot one or the other. There is only one target. This applies to Mournfang Cavalry (you can't shoot the mournfang and end up with an MI Ogre running around). It applies to Bloodcrushers. When one dies, both die. The stats are just for each individual's attacks and sometimes Special Rules (like KB on the rider of a Bloodcrusher but not the mount).

Archaen himself is listed as MC in the BRB. The horse is listed as --. Because the horse is part of the unit and can't be separated in any circumstances. You use its movement value and stats for its attacks. But Arch has the highest wounds so you use his for the totality of the unit.

08ak1 wrote:wondering if normal killing blow can effect Archaon.

At first we had said no because the big book lists him as Monstrous Cav, but then i saw this in the big book faq...

Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

I think it doesn't apply to Archaon because he can't be unmounted and it's more focused on characters with optional monstrous mounts like a normal chaos lord, and given that we can only assume Archaon would be normal infantry without his horse as there is nothing to say what he is without his monstrous cav horse.

Thoughts?

Would Archaon count as infantry if not mounted?
How can he be MC if he isn't mount, what is the mount?

As Per FAQ:
Vampire Lord on Dragon: Yes. Vamp can be, dragon cannot. Dragon left without rider.
Goblin boss on gigantic spider, yes. Even though the spider can't be KB, the FAQ would allow it, and the spider would be removed in the process as they are treated as 1 model.
Peg Knight: Yes? Knight would be infantry without the peg, KB would remove the whole model.


IMO, GW was thinking only about Monstrous Mounts when they wrote this FAQ and wasn't thinking at all about Monstrous Cav.


-Matt

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Aerethan wrote:Just because Archaon MUST take his horse doesn't mean he CAN"T be on foot. The horse, like any ridden monster, can be shot out from beneath him, leaving him on foot, and thus he would be infantry.

I suggest you reread the actual rules, and note that only Monsters can be shot out; not Cavalry or Monstrous Cavalry

I do apologize as I didn't realize that MC had special rules just for them(don't really use them in my armies at all).

If Archaon were walking, he'd be a chaos lord and subject to killing blow. I can see the RAW argument the other way, but honestly playing it that way makes you TFG, since it's a blatant denial of obvious in-game reality.

By running one of the most expensive SC's in the game you become TFG?

Malleus - ok, find a rule saying what Archaon would be when walking, and you would have an argument.

For all you know he's so big and bad-ass he would be MI if walking.

Honestly it makes sense that the EVERCHOSEN cannot be KB'd (emphasis mine).

I can see the RAW argument the other way, but honestly playing it that way makes you TFG, since it's a blatant denial of obvious in-game reality.

I am genuinely curious.... Do you think Archaeon should be able to be KB'd?

Based off your assertation that you can see the RAW the other way, it seems like we are basically of the same position rules wise. If the FAQ was properly worded this wouldn't be up for debate, instead we are left with what seems to be an unclear situation as RAW and RAI may be in conflict. We do not know if they intended to make all characters, including special, subject to killing blow, or if they were simply refering to Monstrous Mounts.

Seeing as how we do not know GW's intent, we can't really discuss it, but we can discuss the idea of whether we think he should be able to be KB'd. I can think of only 2 characters that cost more than Archaeon, but perhaps those with more extensive knowledge could chime in.

The High King, Thorgrim Grudgebearer, is, to my knowledge, the most expensive special character. As he has a special "mount" that really isn't classified as anything, he would have been subject to KB. His throne, or his helmet, or something about him does make him immune to KB, I just cannot recall what it is atm. Technically Malekith is the most expensive if you purchase his Dragon, but thats a Monstrous Mount, and not entirely the same. After Thorgrim, I think its Archaeon.

It just doesn't seem right that a special character that costs nearly 700 points can be dropped by a regular killing blow. To even field Archaeon you are looking at a game of 2750, and thats Archaeon with no other lords.

Yeah, I agree that he shouldn't get regular KB'd, but HKB should work. If i remember right you can only KB infantry and cavalry, not the monsterous counter-parts. It would be a sad day to see something like a scrap launcher KB the everchosen.

His unit type is Monstrous Cavelry, which forms a single model, and MC cannot be KB'd according to their rules.

The KB rules specifically say that Monstrous Cavelry are immune to HKB. Archaon's unit type is Monstrous Cavelry in the Beastiary. Ergo he cannot be KB'd. He can only be HKB'd.

Grey Templar wrote:
The KB rules specifically say that Monstrous Cavelry are immune to HKB. Archaon's unit type is Monstrous Cavelry in the Beastiary. Ergo he cannot be KB'd. He can only be HKB'd.

you might want to look over this again... it defies itself.