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From: Varghulf
Date: Friday 13 January 2012 8:30pm
To: Phil Kelly
Subject: How I Fly?

Dearest Phillip,

You accidently my wings!

Mini Varghulf (Vargheists) can fly. Man-Bat and Dracula has it, too!

Why how-come I no fly?

srsly,

Varghulf

What?

If I'm guessing right, vargs don't really need to fly. They are plenty fast on the ground, and flying would just increase the points cost.

Is there anything in the Varghulf's fluff about it not flying?

Nope, quite the opposite.
The army book describes them as moving in "gliding leaps". I think this is represented by the varg's M8, instead of flight.

I found this out through Dakka not all that long ago... I'd always assumed they COULD fly, based on the model.

Yeah, the wings on the mini causes some confusion, as does the fluff.

He might as well, nowadays. If the semi-Varghulfs can fly, he should too. It wouldn't make much of a difference, since he's already so fast, but it'd make him a little more maneuverable. And the Terrorgheist is already considered a better monster, but I guess can't march without a Vampire, so that'd make the 'ghulf even more distinct.
You want him to fly? I'd let you. Whatevz.

I find it silly. He has wings. I don't know that it's necessary, though. When he marches, he only goes 4" farther with flying. The only thing flying would do is increase his chances at a long charge a little bit (because of swiftstride).

Penguins have wings and so do Ostrich.. All I have to say bout "well they have wings..."

Perhaps, but can you name a creature with bat wings that's incapable of flight? Those guys know how to do it...

And Fly would make him more maneuverable by far, what with hopping over units and stuff.

Maybe their flight is too unwieldy for battle and they are much more agile on the ground.

Warpsolution wrote:Perhaps, but can you name a creature with bat wings that's incapable of flight? Those guys know how to do it...

And Fly would make him more maneuverable by far, what with hopping over units and stuff.

besides bats who has bat wings?

Draigo wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:Perhaps, but can you name a creature with bat wings that's incapable of flight? Those guys know how to do it...

And Fly would make him more maneuverable by far, what with hopping over units and stuff.

besides bats who has bat wings?

Varghulfs. Man-bat. Jabberslythes.

spyguyyoda wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:Perhaps, but can you name a creature with bat wings that's incapable of flight? Those guys know how to do it...

And Fly would make him more maneuverable by far, what with hopping over units and stuff.

besides bats who has bat wings?

Varghulfs. Man-bat. Jabberslythes.

Unfortunately that doesnt help with the deal since varghulfs cant fly and he was sayin things with bat wings can fly. lol My answer is still wings dont matter ask penguins.

Draigo wrote:

spyguyyoda wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:Perhaps, but can you name a creature with bat wings that's incapable of flight? Those guys know how to do it...

And Fly would make him more maneuverable by far, what with hopping over units and stuff.

besides bats who has bat wings?

Varghulfs. Man-bat. Jabberslythes.

Unfortunately that doesnt help with the deal since varghulfs cant fly and he was sayin things with bat wings can fly. lol My answer is still wings dont matter ask penguins.

It is true that wings != flight, but the vast majority of creatures with wings can fly. In warhammer, the only one I can think of is the Varghulf.

spyguyyoda wrote:

Draigo wrote:

spyguyyoda wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:Perhaps, but can you name a creature with bat wings that's incapable of flight? Those guys know how to do it...

And Fly would make him more maneuverable by far, what with hopping over units and stuff.

besides bats who has bat wings?

Varghulfs. Man-bat. Jabberslythes.

Unfortunately that doesnt help with the deal since varghulfs cant fly and he was sayin things with bat wings can fly. lol My answer is still wings dont matter ask penguins.

It is true that wings != flight, but the vast majority of creatures with wings can fly. In warhammer, the only one I can think of is the Varghulf.

Most things in the real world with wings fly hence why they have wings. lol BUT there are exceptions like kiwi, penquins, emu, etc.

Yes. My point was that it doesn't matter.

Varghulfs, from a game standard, should be able to fly, since the Terrorgheist is considered a better monster at this point.

Its just an opinion theres no actual support for it real or otherwise. lol Who cares if the terrorgheist is considered "better." Thats more opinions. Since a zombie is weaker then a chosen does is need regen and 8 mov? I mean 28 days later "zombies" were fast so I think they need to be better. lol

Uh...I'm talking about a game mechanic. Giving them a Fly move would result in seeing more of them on the table, since most players I've talked to almost always field a Terrorgheist over a Varghulf.

The only reasonable way to refute my suggestion that I can think of would be evidence that suggests giving the 'ghulf a Fly move would disrupt the balance of the game.
Fluff-wise, it could make sense, but that's not a reason itself; as you say, you can (try) to justify a whole lot of stuff in terms of in-game logic. Though I'd suggest people leave it up to those with a knack for story-telling to do so.

And the zombie-Chosen thing? C'mon, man. I'm not talking about overall performance; I'm talking about point-for-point efficiency. Obviously. That's the only way to talk about game balance.

So, with that out of the way, who can offer the flip side of the first point, that the Varghulf shouldn't fly because he'd be too awesome or something?

What would actually make him unique if you just made him like everybody else? There are supposed to be ways to set them apart hence why crypt horrors and varghiests have no overlapping stuff. Besides its the scream that make terrorghiests better not the flying. You give him flight hes almost no different then the dragon etc.

I wouldn't compare terrorgheists to vargs. They are too different.
Varghulf is small and compact, able to move up a flank alone, having a fairly easy time finding cover (being so much smaller).
He's got a great weapon skill making him harder to hit in combat, and with hate, he hits back very effectively.

Terrorgheist needs to be near the general. When you look at the size of the thing with it's inability to march, you can quickly get pinned down. It's best effect (scream) has a diminishing return as you become wounded, meaning again, you do best by staying close to the casters.

I'd be thrilled if the Varghulf could fly, but frankly I don't think he needs it. Though swift strider would be nice.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

I'd be thrilled if the Varghulf could fly, but frankly I don't think he needs it. Though swift strider would be nice.

-Matt

You pretty much said what I was about to...it's like what a friend and I were saying the other day about the Black coach getting fly as it's penultimate ability...it gets to go 2" inches farther a turn...not a huge benefit. The difference here would be 4", I guess, since Varghulfs can march, but 16" is pretty dang far. Swiftstride would really make Varghulfs worth considering.

@Draigo- I'm not saying he needs to be more unique. Just better.

@Matt- that's enough for me.

Warpsolution wrote:Perhaps, but can you name a creature with bat wings that's incapable of flight? Those guys know how to do it...

And Fly would make him more maneuverable by far, what with hopping over units and stuff.

By batwings do you mean skin folds stretched across the arm? Because then you've also got flying foxes, who don't fly but instead move with "gliding leaps".


Thing is, it takes a hell of a lot more than a stretch of wing to get a creature to fly. It needs enough strength to maintain it's mass in flight, which for a creature as big and bulky as a varghulf is pretty much impossible. So not giving it flight makes sense.

On the other hand, there's no dragon model that should be able to fly either...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:I'd be thrilled if the Varghulf could fly, but frankly I don't think he needs it. Though swift strider would be nice.

-Matt

Hmmm, swiftstride would help it in it's role, while also making it unique from other big monsters, as a fast monster that doesn't fly. This would be a good change.

Flying foxes...are...bats...? Except maybe they have primate ancestors. But they can fly....pretty sure, anyway. Pretty sure.

But my point isn't to argue that it only makes sense for Varghulfs to fly, only that evidence of vestigial wings is not support for their lack of flight.

I really think its a matter of preference for a desire for them to fly. I really dont think they need it. I like them the way they are hough I liked the idea of swift strider too. Makes them still unique and different from the vargheists, dragons and other beasties of the book.

Warpsolution wrote:Flying foxes...are...bats...? Except maybe they have primate ancestors. But they can fly....pretty sure, anyway. Pretty sure.

Did I say flying fox? Why did I say flying fox?

Sorry, meant flying squirrel. That was a weird and annoying brain fart. Anyway, flying squirrels have skin folds, like bats, and use them to glide, but cannot fly.

But my point isn't to argue that it only makes sense for Varghulfs to fly, only that evidence of vestigial wings is not support for their lack of flight.

Yeah, I was trying to make the same point, but goofed it.