Why is Vulkan He'stan how he is?

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**Scipio Africanus**

You can't deny it. Vulkan is a truly effective character.

He is a sleek 190 points making him perfect for 2k games and he is effectively the best possible tradeoff between assault terminators with lightning claws and assault terminators with storm shields.

Let's have a look at his statline:

He's basically a captain. He has all the rules and abilities [if not the customisation or the combat tactics rule, sortof.] so let's put him at 100 points base.

I put a captain at 100 points base, based on how many different loadouts he can have.

Then, he has this total army buff that covers an entire anti-horde and anti-tank army. He basically allows for perfect separation between power and quantity when his army fires, and he allows his entourage to re-roll some of their attacks.

He's no slouch in combat either, providing up to 4S6 power weapon attacks at WS6 and I5. That's a relic blade, and on a captain that's worth 30 points

He also can take a hit, having both artificer armour and a storm shield effectively, he is an extra 30 points for those two abilities.

Finally, he carries a heavy flamer- a twin linked heavy flamer. I'd say that given that sternguards can get them for for 10 points that it's worth 15 points on his back.

So, all up he is the equivalent of a 175 point captain, yet he still has one awesome ability. The twin-linking of 66% of all basic special weapons and of one or two heavy weapons. I do not think that power is worth 15 points...

what are the thoughts of dakkadakka.

N: if you're wondering how this is tactics, just think about how awesome I've made him sound. ;D

**AresX8**

Vulkan can still be squished by ID by a hidden fist (3++ will make it highly unlikely though), but proper assault moves can prevent that.

I do agree, Vulkan is slightly undecosted for the TLing capability. When I switched to him, I found a huge amount of power that I was basically denying myself.

**Blacksails**

Don't forget he has digital weapons too. His wargear is essentially worth 190pts (10-15pts for the heavy flamer, another 5pts for the master-crafted-ness of his spear), so his ability is largely free.

He's obviously better in larger games where more stuff gets twin-linked. He is a very solid character, no denying that. Though it does force you to build a very close-mid range army.

**Pony_law**

Vulcan is really good but mostly because of his rule making things twin linked,he's no slouch in combat but being vulnerable to instant death means you must be cautious.

**Scipio Africanus**

Not really. You slip him in a unit of Terminators [7 with a crusader works really well.] and make sure he's all up against normal fighters or completely out of the fight, and he's fine.

**tedurur**

Scipio Africanus wrote:Not really. You slip him in a unit of Terminators [7 with a crusader works really well.] and make sure he's all up against normal fighters or completely out of the fight, and he's fine.

How is leaving him out of combat not being cautious? While I do agree that Vulcan is quite a good buy when you tailor the list around him he is only worth it when your looking at 2kish games really. Compared to a normal captain he is a bargin but no one takes a normal captain, the fairest comparision is really to a Librarian. In your summary of his cost you somehow calculated combat tactics as being worth 0 points, not sure if that was intentional or not. Either way its worth quite some and in a bike army its worth pretty much everything (well, not really but you get the idea)

**rodgers37**

AresX8 wrote:Vulkan can still be squished by ID by a hidden fist (3++ will make it highly unlikely though),

I wouldn't say its highly unlikely.... fails one out of every 3 saves, i say 8 Zerkers charge 5 Terminators and Vulkan, get the power fist in a position to hit Vulkan, he could very well be dead in that one turn, he has a good chance of surviving, but he's not highly unlikely to die from power fists. Also, its pretty hard to not get him in combat, unless you spread the terminators out in a line, with Vulkan behind, as each model HAS TO try and move in to b2b combat, with a 6" move. A lot of people seem to forget that rule, thinking they can place there models wherever they want in a combat, there is actually pretty strict rules....

But Vulkan is pretty impressive. I would love to have TL metlaguns, as mine always seem to miss when I really need them to hit. He's pretty good in combat, makes TH/SS terminators just that little bit better, and as well as making Meltas hit a lot more, also your going to fry hordes up easier with TL flamers, pretty great character all round. I would say the chance of getting ID in combat, isn't high enough to even think about not taking Vulkan. The only reason not to take Vulkan is because your playing a different chapter and want to be properly fluffy. But even then you can always do a 'counts as' which i've seen 2/3 people at the club I go to do.

**Scipio Africanus**

tedurur wrote:
Scipio Africanus wrote:Not really. You slip him in a unit of Terminators [7 with a crusader works really well.] and make sure he's all up against normal fighters or completely out of the fight, and he's fine.

How is leaving him out of combat not being cautious? While I do agree that Vulcan is quite a good buy when you tailor the list around him he is only worth it when your looking at 2kish games really. Compared to a normal captain he is a bargin but no one takes a normal captain, the fairest comparision is really to a Librarian. In your summary of his cost you somehow calculated combat tactics as being worth 0 points, not sure if that was intentional or not. Either way its worth quite some and in a bike army its worth pretty much everything (well, not really but you get the idea)

I don't really consider it a caution. Keeping him out of the fight can come naturally, and if it is possible what I do is having on the outskirt of the fight so that he can kill only basic infantry. This isn't a form of caution, it's a habit.

I seee where you're coming from, though.

Also, I did not consider Combat tactics as having a value because I had assumed it was part of the 100 points you pay for a captain. As little as it means, if you look at Vulkan, he also has the combat tactics rule [which is negated as soon as he is taken, but it has its purpose if you have more than one special.]

I understand the use of Combat tactics, and I have been saying 'feth feth feth' throughout games where that last tactical marine JUST held on when it wasn't what I wanted.

You are wrong to say that it is everything in a bikes army, the only real exception, oddly enough being a vulkan-bike list [with melta and flame]

**schadenfreude**

ID isn't that big of a deal on a character with a 2+ and 3++

The army wide buff is really good, and that's really what people buy him for. TL melta/flame weapons + MC TH/SS make for a very well rounded competitive army.

**DreadlordME!**

The 2+ save doesn't mean much with ID as they almost always kill that save so easily, as most are AP1/2 or ignore armour save. + Vindicare Assassin, Shield break, turbo penetrate. Bye,Bye Hestan

**Lordhat**

I don't consider it 190 points for Vulcan. I consider it 190 points for a rule that gives my army TL plasma/flamer weapons, and MC TH's. The fact that this rules comes with a model that has some pretty awesome stats in it's own right is simply bonus.

TL;DR
I would pay Vulkan's points just for the benefits he gives the army, tha actual character himself is all gravy.

**Joey**

You don't regard 15 points for twinlinked melta/flamers as a good deal?
Your loss, dude.

**Lordhat**

Joey wrote:You don't regard 15 points for twinlinked melta/flamers as a good deal?
Your loss, dude.

To whom are you speaking?

**Joey**

OP.

So, all up he is the equivalent of a 175 point captain, yet he still has one awesome ability. The twin-linking of 66% of all basic special weapons and of one or two heavy weapons. I do not think that power is worth 15 points...

**Lordhat**

I presume he means that it's under-costed.

**Joey**

If that is the case then, my bad.

**Scipio Africanus**

Lordhat wrote:I don't consider it 190 points for Vulcan. I consider it 190 points for a rule that gives my army TL plasma/flamer weapons, and MC TH's. The fact that this rules comes with a model that has some pretty awesome stats in it's own right is simply bonus.

TL;DR
I would pay Vulkan's points just for the benefits he gives the army, tha actual character himself is all gravy.

What was so long that you didn't read it?

Joey wrote:You don't regard 15 points for twinlinked melta/flamers as a good deal?
Your loss, dude.

ITs severely undercosted. Like thunderhammer storm shield terminators themselves.

I'm not complaining...

Joey wrote:OP.

So, all up he is the equivalent of a 175 point captain, yet he still has one awesome ability. The twin-linking of 66% of all basic special weapons and of one or two heavy weapons. I do not think that power is worth 15 points...

It is probably worth closer to 20 or 25 points at the very least.

**schadenfreude**

DreadlordME! wrote:The 2+ save doesn't mean much with ID as they almost always kill that save so easily, as most are AP1/2 or ignore armour save. + Vindicare Assassin, Shield break, turbo penetrate. Bye,Bye Hestan

Vulkan list versus GK would be a good fight.
LD Null zone psychic hood librarian will seriously disrupt GK.
TH/SS termies will eat up pretty much any GK unit including paladins.
TL meltas work great on transports, psyflemen, and even storm ravens (Single die S8 against AV12)
TL flamers destroy henchmen.

**AlmightyWalrus**

schadenfreude wrote:
DreadlordME! wrote:The 2+ save doesn't mean much with ID as they almost always kill that save so easily, as most are AP1/2 or ignore armour save. + Vindicare Assassin, Shield break, turbo penetrate. Bye,Bye Hestan

Vulkan list versus GK would be a good fight.
LD Null zone psychic hood librarian will seriously disrupt GK.
TH/SS termies will eat up pretty much any GK unit including paladins.
TL meltas work great on transports, psyflemen, and even storm ravens (Single die S8 against AV12)
TL flamers destroy henchmen.

Paladins do nasty things to TH/SS Terminators. 5 on 5 the Paladins kill 3 on average, and that's when the TH/SS termies get the charge. If we assume that there's 7 TH/SS Termies to make up for the points difference, and add Null Zone, the remaining 4 TH/SS Termies kill 4 Paladins. The problem is that Paladins are rarely run in packs of 5, and often run alongside Draigo, while TH/SS Termies are kinda dependent on their Land Raider to go anywhere.

**Vaktathi**

Scipio Africanus wrote:You can't deny it. Vulkan is a truly effective character.

He is a sleek 190 points making him perfect for 2k games and he is effectively the best possible tradeoff between assault terminators with lightning claws and assault terminators with storm shields.

Let's have a look at his statline:

He's basically a captain. He has all the rules and abilities [if not the customisation or the combat tactics rule, sortof.] so let's put him at 100 points base.

I put a captain at 100 points base, based on how many different loadouts he can have.

Then, he has this total army buff that covers an entire anti-horde and anti-tank army. He basically allows for perfect separation between power and quantity when his army fires, and he allows his entourage to re-roll some of their attacks.

He's no slouch in combat either, providing up to 4S6 power weapon attacks at WS6 and I5. That's a relic blade, and on a captain that's worth 30 points

He also can take a hit, having both artificer armour and a storm shield effectively, he is an extra 30 points for those two abilities.

Finally, he carries a heavy flamer- a twin linked heavy flamer. I'd say that given that sternguards can get them for for 10 points that it's worth 15 points on his back.

So, all up he is the equivalent of a 175 point captain, yet he still has one awesome ability. The twin-linking of 66% of all basic special weapons and of one or two heavy weapons. I do not think that power is worth 15 points...

what are the thoughts of dakkadakka.

N: if you're wondering how this is tactics, just think about how awesome I've made him sound. ;D

Given that for the first year of 5E I didn't see an SM army *without* Vulkan, it's not hard to see why. He's basically already kitted out the way you'd configure a killy Captain, but slightly better on top because of the master crafted bit with his Relic Blade, and then makes all the stuff you're going to spam anyway (Meltas, Flamers, TH/SS termi's) significantly more effective without even needing to be on the table or alive. He's an auto-take crutch unit for many C:SM armies for that reason.

He'd likely still be worth it at 250pts or more in many armies with that ability.

DreadlordME! wrote:The 2+ save doesn't mean much with ID as they almost always kill that save so easily, as most are AP1/2 or ignore armour save. + Vindicare Assassin, Shield break, turbo penetrate. Bye,Bye Hestan

That's a single ~150somethingpts T4 W2 4++sv Elite unit from one codex and it's still taking you several turns and assuming that LoS is there and that there's no cover involved

**EmilCrane**

DreadlordME! wrote:The 2+ save doesn't mean much with ID as they almost always kill that save so easily, as most are AP1/2 or ignore armour save. + Vindicare Assassin, Shield break, turbo penetrate. Bye,Bye Hestan

funny how if you try hard enough you can always find some unit that can kill another unit in a wargame, almost like it was designed that way

Until you factor in cover, line of sight, your assassin suffering critical existence failure by bolters

**juraigamer**

It wouldn't be such a bad price discrepancy if the ability to twin link and mastercraft went away after he died. As it stands he should be more expensive for what he does.

**Zambro**

Personally, i pay 190 points to suppliment the other 1300 points of my army. The fact that the model and his wargear is awesome is a bonus

**winterman**

Something a captain gets that Vulkan doesn't -- Command Squad. People assume he can take one, but he can't.

Also don't underestimate combat tactics.

Not to say that means he sucks, but there are reasons to take captains over vulkan. Command Squad and making bikes troops being the only reason I can think of.

Finally, special characters will almost always be deals compared to similar costed basic options due to lack of customization. Vulkan is not an exception but the rule. The issue for the SM codex is there's not alot of options worth taking -- so why not take the discounted SC with the cool chapter tactic?

**Lordalador**

If they ever become popular, a Tesseract Labrynth, will kill him of 50% off the time (IIRC).

**NeutronPoison**

I don't think Vulkan is undercosted. Losing combat tactics is a blow, and you have to think about the opportunity cost. You could have a Null Zone / Gate Libby for 100, which means you're basically paying 90 points to have Vulkan's rules instead of Null Zone, Gate, and Combat Tactics, and for a CC beatstick.

90 points is a Dakka Pred, so you better be getting a Dakka Pred, Combat Tactics, Null Zone, and Gate worth out of that army-wide buff.

**ph34r**

Vulkan is slightly undercosted, melta/flamer is slightly too reliable, and captains are slightly overcosted. This all adds up to make Vulkan a very good character.

**Devil Dog**

I put him in my army. With three attack bike squads with multi meltas. He is extremely pimp on his own, but making meltas twin linked is just plain crazy. Not to mention my ironclads dropped in drop pods with heavy flamers on each ARM. He is a force to be reckoned with, period.

**Dok**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Paladins do nasty things to TH/SS Terminators. 5 on 5 the Paladins kill 3 on average, and that's when the TH/SS termies get the charge. If we assume that there's 7 TH/SS Termies to make up for the points difference, and add Null Zone, the remaining 4 TH/SS Termies kill 4 Paladins. The problem is that Paladins are rarely run in packs of 5, and often run alongside Draigo, while TH/SS Termies are kinda dependent on their Land Raider to go anywhere.

I'm not following your math here. Care to expound?

If neither charge and the pallies have standard wargear for a 5 man squad (a couple halberds, a hammer, and possibly a couple with falchions) That's 4 attacks at i6. Hit on 3's, wound on 3's if hammerhand went off. Which will net ~2 wounds = no fails on average. At I4, that's 6 attacks, 4 hits, 2-3 wounds. At this point they may have failed one on average. Then your hammer and their hammers go at the same time. You hit 1-2 and wound 1-2 and they may fail one more. they strike back with ~8 attacks, hit 4 and wound 3-4. The pallies save one out of 3 and lose combat by 2.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, @ the OP: Special characters almost always under costed. Belial from DA is a prime example. His wargear alone puts him well over the amount of points you would pay if you could take a company master with similar wargear.

**guyperson5**

Always use him. His 2+/3+ saves make him (fairly) durable and he punishes with his relic blade anything that strikes after him.
If you don't kit all your guys out with meltas and flamers though, you aren't getting your points worth out of him