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I want to make a 1500 Mech Guard list that is very competitive and . However, I also want to make one without Manticores as I currently lack the models and lacking in money.

Behold the power of the Guard!

HQ

Company Command Squad : 160
Plasma Pistol
Plasma Gun x 3
Chimera w/ Multilaser, Heavy Flamer

Troops

Veteran Squad : 155
Meltagun x 3
Chimera w/ Multilaser, Heavy Flamer

Veteran Squad : 155
Meltagun x 3
Chimera w/ Multilaser, Heavy Flamer

Veteran Squad : 155
Meltagun x 3
Chimera w/ Multilaser, Heavy Flamer

Veteran Squad : 155
Meltagun x 3
Chimera w/ Multilaser, Heavy Flamer

Fast Attack

Vendetta Gunship : 130

Vendetta Gunship : 130

Hellhound : 130
Hull Heavy Flamer

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher : 165
Hull Heavy Flamer

Leman Russ Demolisher : 165
Hull Heavy Flamer

TOTAL ; 1500

CCS is there to take out MEQ and Terminators. Veteran Squads are standard issue for Mech lists, no need to explain them. 2x Vendettas provide long range anti tank. Hellhound works against hordes and can be used to block enemy units. 2x Demolishers will have a great psychological effect on the enemy, plus they work wonders against Paladins and Meganobs.

This list is an all comers list and can take on just about any opponent.

MEQ armies will hate the 2x Demolishers and Plasma CCS while hordes will dread the abundance of flamers in it. Vehicles and MCs are no problem with the amount of melta and lascannons I got.

Please give me more advice to make this list even more and competitive.

The plasma pistol can be stripped off. The cost versus utility doesn't match up for it.

The Hellhound is generally not included in the most competitive lists (especially with as many heavy flamers as you have), I'd go tri-Vendetta personally.

I prefer plain Russes to Demolishers but that's a matter of opinion not doctrine.

Other than that, this is fething close to the platonic ideal of a MechVet list.

The plasma pistol can be stripped off. The cost versus utility doesn't match up for it.

The Hellhound is generally not included in the most competitive lists (especially with as many heavy flamers as you have), I'd go tri-Vendetta personally.

I prefer plain Russes to Demolishers but that's a matter of opinion not doctrine.

Other than that, this is fething close to the platonic ideal of a MechVet list.

Hmm if I take off the Plasma Pistol, what do you think I could spend the 10 points on?

With the Necron Scarabs though, I thought it was quite necessary, if not a Hellhound, how can I deal with Scarabs?

I personally prefer Demolishers since I've fought GK Paladins but yes, it is due to personal preference, I used to run a regular Russ and a Demolisher myself.

Whats platonic mean?

Thanks for your advice!

Imho switch multi-lasers out for any of the other choices on your chimeras. In current meta, multi-lasers occupy this nebulous middle ground where they can not bust tanks and not kill troops with equal ineffectiveness. they are weaker than the autocannons that most of us guard players use for anti-transport work, and lack the ap of the much maligned (deservedly) heavy bolter.

also, hellhounds make a nice gimmick, and are //situationally// useful, but with the amount of flame your chimera's are bringing, sort of feel redundant. I whole-heartedly second the swap out for another vendetta.

I like the demolisher. while it might have been suboptimal when it first came out, the paladin dick-cheesery that has become so prevalent falls apart fast when demo' shells start flying.

strip the plas pistol, it doesn't do you much good. my suggestion would be to trim a few points, and throw in an advisor. Helping those reserve rolls can do wonders for outflanking vendettas/ whole army reserved bc you are going second

I like the Hellhound, but if you want to get rid of it, IMO the best swap would be that and the CCS' plasma pistol for a Psyker Battle Squad. They're really a point and click solution to some things that are going to give you a hard time. Nothing screws up a nonfearless deathstar worse than a PBS, and 6 psykers is usually enough.

I used to run a similar list, but like you said with Manticores rather than Russes. I found that an infantry platoon (power blob) helps save you a lot of headaches from Scarabs and H2H, plus gives you a PCS which really is functionally similar to a Melta Vet squad. You'd be looking at a swap of a Vet squad and the Hell Hound for a power blob w/ commissar and PCS w/ 4 melta guns (290 points, whereas vets + HH are 285).

I like the list, yet a couple changes I'd make would be the LRBT Demo's I'd swap them out for Manticores. You lose the AP2 but gain so much.
Think you'd have 10 pts left

I'm in agreement with dropping the Plasma Pistol for another Plasma gun on the last vet.

The hellhound or 3rd Vendetta is a meta call. I'd rock the Ven for Paladins, light armor, etc.

I like the hell hound vs crons as well.

I like your list, pretty standard build.

Imho switch multi-lasers out for any of the other choices on your chimeras. In current meta, multi-lasers occupy this nebulous middle ground where they can not bust tanks and not kill troops with equal ineffectiveness. they are weaker than the autocannons that most of us guard players use for anti-transport work, and lack the ap of the much maligned (deservedly) heavy bolter.

also, hellhounds make a nice gimmick, and are //situationally// useful, but with the amount of flame your chimera's are bringing, sort of feel redundant. I whole-heartedly second the swap out for another vendetta.

I like the demolisher. while it might have been suboptimal when it first came out, the paladin dick-cheesery that has become so prevalent falls apart fast when demo' shells start flying.

strip the plas pistol, it doesn't do you much good. my suggestion would be to trim a few points, and throw in an advisor. Helping those reserve rolls can do wonders for outflanking vendettas/ whole army reserved bc you are going second

Multilasers are still pretty good imho, massed multilasers can actually bust AV11 and S6 will put wounds on infantry pretty reliably, I agree with some of your points though, if I switch them out, what weapon do you recommend I switch them for?

Hmm. I've thought about bringing in a 3rd Vendetta which would be awesome but since the arrival of Scarab farm Necron armies, I want to keep a Hellhound to kill Scarabs fast.

Glad we see eye to eye on the Demolisher

Besides the plasma pistol, what else do you think I can strip off to get more points?

I like the Hellhound, but if you want to get rid of it, IMO the best swap would be that and the CCS' plasma pistol for a Psyker Battle Squad. They're really a point and click solution to some things that are going to give you a hard time. Nothing screws up a nonfearless deathstar worse than a PBS, and 6 psykers is usually enough.

I used to run a similar list, but like you said with Manticores rather than Russes. I found that an infantry platoon (power blob) helps save you a lot of headaches from Scarabs and H2H, plus gives you a PCS which really is functionally similar to a Melta Vet squad. You'd be looking at a swap of a Vet squad and the Hell Hound for a power blob w/ commissar and PCS w/ 4 melta guns (290 points, whereas vets + HH are 285).

I'll need to try this out as I've not used Psyker Battle Squads before, could you list out some of their uses and advantages?

I'd like for this list to be a all Mechanized force if possible, I could take in a PCS with 4x Meltaguns and 2 PIS with Meltagun and Autocannon in Chimeras but that would be 375 points.

I like the list, yet a couple changes I'd make would be the LRBT Demo's I'd swap them out for Manticores. You lose the AP2 but gain so much.
Think you'd have 10 pts left

I'm in agreement with dropping the Plasma Pistol for another Plasma gun on the last vet.

The hellhound or 3rd Vendetta is a meta call. I'd rock the Ven for Paladins, light armor, etc.

As I've said, I would like to exclude Manticores as I'm currently lacking the funds to buy them and I really don't want to have proxies in my army.

Another Vendetta supporter? I REALLY have to try out 3x Vendettas now!

I like the hell hound vs crons as well.

Scarab Farm Necrons??



Well it seems the majority of you want 3x Vendettas in the list, as soon as I get a 3rd Vendetta model I will try it out. I would like to ask you all something though, without a Hellhound, how else can we deal with Scarab Farm Necrons?

Plasma Pistol will also be cut out if I can find 5 points to give to my CCS a 4th Plasma Gun. I've also considered swapping the plasma pistol for a meltagun in my CCS, does a 3x plasma and 1x melta sound good?

Thank you all for all your help so far!

The advice to get rid of the Multi-laser is poor advice. Besides, you do not shoot the Multi-laser at vehicles, you shoot it at troops. The rare AV 10 vehicle is the only thing worthy to shoot at anyways. Having something at Str 6 to fire at range as you move up 6" with 3 shots is better than Str 5 with 3 shots. To fire both weapons your not moving, so that is why having a hull heavy flamer to give you an option on the attack, as you should not stop moving your Chimeras. If your camping, leave the hull HB to give you 6 shots at range.

If your hull heavy flamers can't deal with the problem, what makes you believe the Hell hound can?

Any yeah, I would rather have a melta gun than a plasma pistol. I don't condone mixing special weapons, but you have nothing else to drop.

As for the Vendetta, it isn't that it is a must, it is just the best option for 130-140pts. Having 3 sources of long range AT is never a bad thing to boot. But you could also get two Vet squads with shotguns to throw in the two Vendettas you have to make them scoring, drop the 3 plasma guns in the CCS to 4 Melta guns and give the two shotgun Vets bolt pistols with the finial 5pts.

The advice to get rid of the Multi-laser is poor advice. Besides, you do not shoot the Multi-laser at vehicles, you shoot it at troops. The rare AV 10 vehicle is the only thing worthy to shoot at anyways. Having something at Str 6 to fire at range as you move up 6" with 3 shots is better than Str 5 with 3 shots. To fire both weapons your not moving, so that is why having a hull heavy flamer to give you an option on the attack, as you should not stop moving your Chimeras. If your camping, leave the hull HB to give you 6 shots at range.

If your hull heavy flamers can't deal with the problem, what makes you believe the Hell hound can?

Any yeah, I would rather have a melta gun than a plasma pistol. I don't condone mixing special weapons, but you have nothing else to drop.

As for the Vendetta, it isn't that it is a must, it is just the best option for 130-140pts. Having 3 sources of long range AT is never a bad thing to boot. But you could also get two Vet squads with shotguns to throw in the two Vendettas you have to make them scoring, drop the 3 plasma guns in the CCS to 4 Melta guns and give the two shotgun Vets bolt pistols with the finial 5pts.

Great! Ill keep the Multilaser!

The Hellhound is S6 which makes it possible to instant kill Scarabs, its also fast which makes it harder to hit and easier to get lots of hits with the flamer.

Got it, dropping the Plasma Pistol for a Meltagun!

I'll definitely try out 3x Vendettas as soon as I get a 3rd model. I'm kinda hesitant on putting troops in the Vendettas though, they are always focused on by the enemy long range anti tank. Also I prefer to use them purely as mobile gunships. If I change the CCS from plasma to melta, wouldn't I unbalance my list too much towards anti tank? I always thought that having a mix of melta and plasma was best.

Thanks for your advice once again

If I change the CCS from plasma to melta, wouldn't I unbalance my list too much towards anti tank? I always thought that having a mix of melta and plasma was best.

Having a mix is fine, but for both your effective range is 12" due to moving. Melta gun is just as good against power armor, you can pop AV 12 at 12" with it (same as plasma) and your even better within 6" against armor.

The Hellhound is S6 which makes it possible to instant kill Scarabs, its also fast which makes it harder to hit and easier to get lots of hits with the flamer.

There is no 'instant kill', 2+ is 2+. I do understand the desire for a Fast Vehicle to make it harder to hit in CC, but if your that worried about a certain type of foe, your hamstringing yourself and your own list. One Hell Hound, if your foe finds it as much of a threat as you believe, will just be taken out first. Then what? Your using Chimera heavy flamers and shooting like before. I am just saying to remove the middle man of that process.

If you feel it is that important, then keep it. I have not played against Necrons nor do I run them. But I have not faced a foe where massed firepower and the proper application of force has not worked.

Having a mix is fine, but for both your effective range is 12" due to moving. Melta gun is just as good against power armor, you can pop AV 12 at 12" with it (same as plasma) and your even better within 6" against armor.

I think I'll keep the plasma on for now as plasma is more effective against MCs and Terminators.

There is no 'instant kill', 2+ is 2+. I do understand the desire for a Fast Vehicle to make it harder to hit in CC, but if your that worried about a certain type of foe, your hamstringing yourself and your own list. One Hell Hound, if your foe finds it as much of a threat as you believe, will just be taken out first. Then what? Your using Chimera heavy flamers and shooting like before. I am just saying to remove the middle man of that process.

If you feel it is that important, then keep it. I have not played against Necrons nor do I run them. But I have not faced a foe where massed firepower and the proper application of force has not worked.

Doesn't S6 instantly kill T3 Scarabs? Heavy Flamers are S5 which also wound Scarabs on 2+ but won't instant kill them. In my experience, most foes will target the Vendettas first and usually won't target the Hellhound straight away.

You should take a look at the Scarab Farm Necron army that jy2 has been testing lately, thats the sort of army I'm worried about.

S6 does instant kill t3 scarabs. And if I'm not mistaken the hellhound template will generate double wounds, plus their improved cover doesn't work. It's pretty hard on scarabs for sure.

A hellhound isn't hard to take out but neither are vendettas and people take them all the time. It's probably the best way to kill scarabs in the game and it's not useless at everything else. Necron warriors are 4+ now, and firewarriors are bound to make a comeback soon. To them it's like a banewolf with longer range.

S6 does instant kill t3 scarabs. And if I'm not mistaken the hellhound template will generate double wounds, plus their improved cover doesn't work. It's pretty hard on scarabs for sure.

A hellhound isn't hard to take out but neither are vendettas and people take them all the time. It's probably the best way to kill scarabs in the game and it's not useless at everything else. Necron warriors are 4+ now, and firewarriors are bound to make a comeback soon. To them it's like a banewolf with longer range.

This!

Hellhounds are also good because of the low priority given to them by the opponent. The 12" move before the "special" range flamer template is more of a good thing.

Use a banewolf for deep striking terms and wolf scouts... OBTW the chem cannon is "str 1" so a defensive weapon, so your firing both weapons at cruising.

It's also only ap3 so not super great against deep striking termies.

The PBS has two attacks: the more important of which reduces the target unit's LD by the number of psykers in the unit. This really screws nonfearless death stars like Wolfstar: just do enough wounds to force LD test and watch them run.

The other attack is a pieplate with S equal to the number of psykers in the unit, and an AP of D6. So half the time, it's AP3 or better. Not bad either...both have 36" range.


These are both hugely effective and because the range is 36", they outrange most Psychic Hoods.

Almarine wrote:It's also only ap3 so not super great against deep striking termies.

Indeed. I was thinking AP2.

I question if you have enough long range anti-tank in your list. The 5 chimeras provide some suppresion for light armour, but the vendettas are the only really long range anti-tank (and will hence be targetted first), and the demolishers only have 24" range. A leaf blower list with hydras and a manti-core would have a field day with this list, similarly with blood angels tank/razorback spam or even a Marine tank heavy list (predators/riflemen).

Just my thoughts.

CaptainJay wrote:I question if you have enough long range anti-tank in your list. The 5 chimeras provide some suppresion for light armour, but the vendettas are the only really long range anti-tank (and will hence be targetted first), and the demolishers only have 24" range. A leaf blower list with hydras and a manti-core would have a field day with this list, similarly with blood angels tank/razorback spam or even a Marine tank heavy list (predators/riflemen).

Just my thoughts.

First you can't really build a leafblower at 1500pts. Second, theres more to guard than hydras and manticores.

I question if you have enough long range anti-tank in your list. The 5 chimeras provide some suppresion for light armour, but the vendettas are the only really long range anti-tank (and will hence be targetted first), and the demolishers only have 24" range. A leaf blower list with hydras and a manti-core would have a field day with this list, similarly with blood angels tank/razorback spam or even a Marine tank heavy list (predators/riflemen).

Just my thoughts.

With this list, I'm going to play aggressively and try to get into the 12" range as fast as possible. 2 vendettas will be enough if I know what vehicle I have to destroy first.

Hydras are twin-linked so they will get a lot of hits but they still need a 5+ to even glance it. Manticores aren't so bad if I know how to deploy my chimeras to avoid multiple hits.

I have not fought against BA razorspam yet so I will need to play some games first before I comment on this. I have fought codex marine tank lists before and I have done relatively well, its just those riflemen dreads that give me some trouble.

I am dreading facing a GK with psyriflemen though, any advice for facing them?

Byte wrote:

CaptainJay wrote:I question if you have enough long range anti-tank in your list. The 5 chimeras provide some suppresion for light armour, but the vendettas are the only really long range anti-tank (and will hence be targetted first), and the demolishers only have 24" range. A leaf blower list with hydras and a manti-core would have a field day with this list, similarly with blood angels tank/razorback spam or even a Marine tank heavy list (predators/riflemen).

Just my thoughts.

First you can't really build a leafblower at 1500pts. Second, theres more to guard than hydras and manticores.

Sure you can, swap out the leman russes and hellhound for 4 hydras and a medusa/manticore viola, sorted! Also I never said guard HAD to be composed of hydras and manticores, however they are commonly used for a reason because they're good. OP states that he's after a competitive/cheesy list, I've merely pointed out some shortcomings in his current one.

Jereziah wrote:

I question if you have enough long range anti-tank in your list. The 5 chimeras provide some suppresion for light armour, but the vendettas are the only really long range anti-tank (and will hence be targetted first), and the demolishers only have 24" range. A leaf blower list with hydras and a manti-core would have a field day with this list, similarly with blood angels tank/razorback spam or even a Marine tank heavy list (predators/riflemen).

Just my thoughts.

With this list, I'm going to play aggressively and try to get into the 12" range as fast as possible. 2 vendettas will be enough if I know what vehicle I have to destroy first.

Hydras are twin-linked so they will get a lot of hits but they still need a 5+ to even glance it. Manticores aren't so bad if I know how to deploy my chimeras to avoid multiple hits.

I have not fought against BA razorspam yet so I will need to play some games first before I comment on this. I have fought codex marine tank lists before and I have done relatively well, its just those riflemen dreads that give me some trouble.

I am dreading facing a GK with psyriflemen though, any advice for facing them?

2 Hydras will get 2 glancing/penetrating hits on average against the vendetta (8*3/4*1/3), plus it can't claim saves for turbo boosting, that said your list looks like its quite aggressive I'm just hilighting a weakness. A typical marine list can have 3 riflemen, 3 Autocannon/Lascannon Predators and Mult-meltas in the fast attack (attack bikes or speeders) in which case the dreads and preds target the vendettas then chimeras while the fast attack gets your leman russes as they only have 24" range. Anyways you said you know how to play them so no worries there.

I'm also no a fan of psyifleman spam (GK can take up to 6, 3 venerable, 3 normal), my advice would be try and hood them (so they can't get off fortitude) otherwise you literally just need to hammer them one at a time til they die. Hope this helps.

Sure you can, swap out the leman russes and hellhound for 4 hydras and a medusa/manticore viola, sorted! Also I never said guard HAD to be composed of hydras and manticores, however they are commonly used for a reason because they're good. OP states that he's after a competitive/cheesy list, I've merely pointed out some shortcomings in his current one.

I will definitely have to try out hydras and medusas. I don't really like Manticores though, would medusas or manticores be more competitive? Also, do you know any easy ways to model hydras/medusas?

Doesn't S6 instantly kill T3 Scarabs?

S6 does instant kill t3 scarabs.

No, you still have to roll to wound, a 2+. If the Scarabs have more than 1 Wound and are T 3, then they are insta killed by a Str 6+ weapon. This means melta guns and plasma guns will also insta kill them.

As I stated, I do not own a Necron Codex or play against them. If you do not give all of the information needed, I can not answer your question properly.

No, you still have to roll to wound, a 2+. If the Scarabs have more than 1 Wound and are T 3, then they are insta killed by a Str 6+ weapon. This means melta guns and plasma guns will also insta kill them.

As I stated, I do not own a Necron Codex or play against them. If you do not give all of the information needed, I can not answer your question properly.

Necron Scarabs have 3 wounds each and can apparently gain a 3+ cover save. They are also deadly against vehicles because of enthorpic strike which can reduce vehicle AV extremely quickly. Hence Hellhounds!