Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Saw this in one of the handgun advice threads:

Joey wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:Are we busy talking about buying murdering weapons? Oh my, were are we going, world...

Yeah, Americans are weird. "I'm going to buy something to help me take away another man's life, any advice?".
Very strange.

Discuss.

There is no point in having guns in your house.
Why would you want to have one? For safety? Then you did something very wrong to be so afraid that you want a gun - dont tell me what!

In America we are free to defend our lives,families and property with lethal force if need be. Some people seem to be against the idea for some strange reason.

Bleak_Fantasy wrote:In America we are free to defend our lives,families and property with lethal force if need be. Some people seem to be against the idea for some strange reason.

Let the discussion start!

-Why do you need to have a gun to defend yourself? You can do the same with a knife or your fists.

-How many lives have been saved with guns? (not counting people in war nor criminals)


Not having guns is a LOT safer. Or are there criminals that want to take you down? Or are you followed by the KKK?

Why do I need a car to get around? Because its a lot easier and a whole lot more effective then walking or taking a bus when you need to get gak done quickly. If someone breaks into my house with a gun I would rather have a gun then a knife or my fists. How many people have been saved by guns? Millions over the years. There are news stories in the states all the time about cops and armed citizens taking down dangerous criminals or even just stopping them until an arrest can be made. The vast majority or crimes are committed by criminals that obtain guns illegally. Guns by them self do not cause crime, look at Canada, they have way more per person then the US but they have way lower crime rates across the board. Gun control only disarms law abiding citizens and not criminals. Want to get rid of guns and stop criminals from getting their hands on them? How about you try getting rid of all illegal narcotics first.

thenoobbomb wrote:

Bleak_Fantasy wrote:In America we are free to defend our lives,families and property with lethal force if need be. Some people seem to be against the idea for some strange reason.

Let the discussion start!

-Why do you need to have a gun to defend yourself? You can do the same with a knife or your fists.

-How many lives have been saved with guns? (not counting people in war nor criminals)


Not having guns is a LOT safer. Or are there criminals that want to take you down? Or are you followed by the KKK?

People who break in to your house NEVER carry guns. That would be absurd.

thenoobbomb wrote:There is no point in having guns in your house.
Why would you want to have one? For safety? Then you did something very wrong to be so afraid that you want a gun - dont tell me what!

That's really the only reason you can think of that someone might feel like they need a gun for protection? Because they did something very wrong to someone else, and now that someone is coming after them? Let me guess, if they're not a criminal they should just call the police if something bad happens, right?


What about just for fun? Some people like shooting as a hobby. There are tons of competitions involving shooting, even Olympic sports. So what's wrong with having one just because you enjoy shooting?

Dropping knowledge
http://www.nysun.com/opinion/gun-control-isnt-crime-control/71908/

I'm sure the fists really came in handy here. They must have done something really wrong to piss these guys off.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/petit_family/index.html

Why would you want to have one?

Why wouldn't I?

Hunting and target shooting are both fun, and have numerous benefits besides "HURP DURP GUN GO BANG". It's a martial art. Granted, not many see it that way because...uh...it has more emphasis on the "Martial" part, and well it involves things that go bang and that's scary, so "it doesn't count". But it's a discipline, and like any martial art it brings a lot to the table.

In a defensive role, quite frankly I can get to a rifle a hell of a lot faster than a cop can get to me, and I am willing to wager a pretty large sum of money that I can run a gun better than most of the officers of the responding departments. This is assuming I am not in yet another situation where they are overwhelmed or non-present.

Then you get into minor details like the possibility of ones little <CENSORED> one day getting conscripted, one might benefit from knowing how to run a gun in this situation, and no, military training is to the LOWEST common denominator generally, .MIL and LEO agencies have people who run the gamut from "I Hate guns and don't like using it, so I will do the ABSOLUTE BARE MINIMUM I HAVE TO" to "I have a machine gun and a government funded supply of ammunition. I have reached nirvana." The more people who fall into the latter category in wartime, the better.

Lastly, it's not a "US ONLY! IT'S THEM DARN REDNECKS IN THE SOUTH!" deal. Finland and Switzerland both have a shooting populace that are similar, and in many ways better equipped (Finns can buy evil silencers WITHOUT THE RIDICULOUS HOOPLA IN THE US!! THE HORROR!), Australia and the UK only recently had their shooting communities annihilated, Canada still has...well about as robust as ever, as far as I can tell, and it wasn't too many years ago that a Frenchman (Ha!) could own a machine gun privately.

.....So I have a new question: What happened to the rest of the world?

Opinion, rather.

It's a position which supports possession of weapons without comparison of the US situation with the rest of the civilised world in which the gun issue works out very differently.

International comparison makes it clear that gun control is neither impossible, nor a precursor to rampant gun facilitated crime when guns are out of the hands of honest citizens.

Basically it is a social issue rather than a technical one.

It's unfair, though to characterise all Americans as weird because of it.

thenoobbomb wrote:There is no point in having guns in your house.
Why would you want to have one? For safety? Then you did something very wrong to be so afraid that you want a gun - dont tell me what!

You should look up police response times in Detroit, then rephrase your questions.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Having a gun doesn't MAKE you a killer.

thenoobbomb wrote:
-How many lives have been saved with guns? (not counting people in war nor criminals)

Something a lot of people do not think about, hunting. Hunting does save lives. The deer population in my area is pretty out of control. So much that we pretty much give away tags for people to hunt more deer and we hold an extra season for hunting. This stops a lot of accidents involving hitting deer in your cars, which can be very fatal.

Edit: For failing at quotes

European-style gun control could work for America, but it'd take multiple generations to have an effect. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, at least not easily; the large legal market for handguns in America is what has allowed there to be a considerable black market. Removing legal handgun ownership in America would eventually reduce the number of guns in criminal hands, but it'd take a very, very long time.

Better to have an even playing field, then, say I. I'm quite liberal on most social issues, but I'm also a gun owner, and occasionally make use of my concealed carry permit.

Bleak_Fantasy wrote:In America we are free to defend our lives,families and property with lethal force if need be. Some people seem to be against the idea for some strange reason.

We're against the idea because gun ownership breeds gun ownership. Criminals in the USA arm themselves with guns because they have a reasonable expectation that the people they are victimising may own a firearm. It's not rocket science. You flood a system with guns, bad people find them ridiculously easy to obtain. Strictly control the sale and ownership of firearms, bad people find them a great deal more difficult to obtain. For example, burglaries involving firearms are very rare here. Sure, people still get shot occasionally, but nowhere near as much as in the US, and that's a consequence of there being less guns. And it's not like we're not into them; the UK is one of the world's biggest arms-dealers!

Frankly, I'm happy to give up a little bit of arbitrarily constructed 'freedom' in order to live in a safer place. Franklin was wrong on that one - it's a nice soundbite, but it also happens to be bs.

In any case, I can still arm myself and defend my home if needs be - I'm just lucky enough to live in a country where I don't need a gun to do it.

thenoobbomb wrote:

Bleak_Fantasy wrote:In America we are free to defend our lives,families and property with lethal force if need be. Some people seem to be against the idea for some strange reason.

Let the discussion start!

-Why do you need to have a gun to defend yourself? You can do the same with a knife or your fists.

-How many lives have been saved with guns? (not counting people in war nor criminals)


Not having guns is a LOT safer. Or are there criminals that want to take you down? Or are you followed by the KKK?

I've used the 12 gauge to cap a couple rattle snakes that were hanging out either where the kids/dogs play or where the horses were. Also used it to cap a water moccasin that decided hanging out by one of the water troughs was a good idea. And a couple of copperheads that thought the hay bales were a fun place to make their home.

Where we live you can get folks who want to break in to houses or storage buildings and the cops are about 10 minutes away. The racking of a mossberg 500t has made at least one pair of dirtbags decide they were attempting access to the wrong place. Why the heck should I hope that a knife or fist can defend me when I can use a much more efficient tool? Why should I accept risk of bodily harm from engaging in a fist fight. Fighting a meth addled up perp is stupid.

As for carrying, there have been multiple times in the last few years where a mass killer has only been effective because he chose to strike in a place where people cannot legally carry (which obviously didn't stop the perp). Ft Hood and Virgia Tech are two easy examples. Think it is a coincidence that the crap bags that pull those types of stunts pick places where carrying is not allowed?

Sure, owning a pistol to defend yourself against burglars/ dangerous animals (in areas where they are commomon) seems reasonable to me. But who needs machine guns? Who needs 50 fething rifles in his house? Some people just go too far with it, and many people die from that (kids playing with daddys machine gun for example)

Edit

before someone says "but shooting guns is cool!";
yes it is. But so is having five 18 jear old bitches in your bed. or driving a tank on the street.


Noboy needs it, and its dangerous. Someone should make it illegal.

MrMerlin wrote:Sure, owning a pistol to defend yourself against burglars/ dangerous animals (in areas where they are commomon) seems reasonable to me. But who needs machine guns? Who needs 50 fething rifles in his house? Some people just go too far with it, and many people die from that (kids playing with daddys machine gun for example)

I assume you are ignorant of US gun laws. Folks cannot have machine guns without an expensive Federal license which has an annual renewal fee. That tends to limit legal ownership to collectors who generally are not using them to defend their house and don't leave them laying around. In fact, I bet you cannot find an example from the last ten years where some child has killed him/herself with Daddy's legally owned machine gun. Folks who own a machinegun illegally, well no law is going to keep a law breaker from breaking the law...

Additionally a pistol for use against dangerous animals is a real bad choice. You have to get too close and pistol caliber rounds may not work the best. We had a cougar take down a couple cows less than a mile up the road from my place a couple of years ago. No way I would want to face that with a pistol when I don't have to.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27399337/ns/us_news-life/t/boy-accidentally-kills-self-gun-show/#.TxLzlRyTqRQ

Kilkrazy wrote:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27399337/ns/us_news-life/t/boy-accidentally-kills-self-gun-show/#.TxLzlRyTqRQ

The adult supervisor should be hung, drawn and quartered for allowing that to happen. Let alone for allowing an 8 year old to fire a full-auto weapon...

In Australia we cant have any form of self defence device. Carry one can get you jailed for years.

I wish i could get a gun for self defence (or anything for that matter)

The best thing in Australia for home defence is a dog

CptJake wrote:

MrMerlin wrote:Sure, owning a pistol to defend yourself against burglars/ dangerous animals (in areas where they are commomon) seems reasonable to me. But who needs machine guns? Who needs 50 fething rifles in his house? Some people just go too far with it, and many people die from that (kids playing with daddys machine gun for example)

I assume you are ignorant of US gun laws. Folks cannot have machine guns without an expensive Federal license which has an annual renewal fee. That tends to limit legal ownership to collectors who generally are not using them to defend their house and don't leave them laying around. In fact, I bet you cannot find an example from the last ten years where some child has killed him/herself with Daddy's legally owned machine gun. Folks who own a machinegun illegally, well no law is going to keep a law breaker from breaking the law...

Additionally a pistol for use against dangerous animals is a real bad choice. You have to get too close and pistol caliber rounds may not work the best. We had a cougar take down a couple cows less than a mile up the road from my place a couple of years ago. No way I would want to face that with a pistol when I don't have to.

well, then buy a proper gun to kill a snake. Dont have a problem with that.

Who i do have a problem with are peolple who own guns because they think its cool. "becaue its fun to shoot with it" is not an argument for owning something that can kill a person.

thenoobbomb wrote:There is no point in having guns in your house.
Why would you want to have one?

For the same reason I have hundreds of toy soldiers in my house.

Because I can.

Also, guns level the playing field. I have no doubt that I would be hard pressed to get away with my life if I got into a knife fight with someone breaking into my home. I have a much greater certainty of surviving if I have a gun and he has a knife.

thenoobbomb wrote:There is no point in having guns in your house.

Usually I would say that the point in having guns in your house is to shoot someone. You may not WANT to do so, I'm sure most gun owners would really rather not have to fire their weapon in their house, but it's still better tahn not having one if someone breaks in to the house.

As a woman especially, the idea of someone breaking in to my house is rather scary...

thenoobbomb wrote:-Why do you need to have a gun to defend yourself? You can do the same with a knife or your fists.

Right, I, a 5'6" woman and a chemist and student by trade, can defend myself against a 200 pound 6'5" musclebound thug who probably has his own gun and knife and has been fighting and beating up others all his life.

FETH that. I'm not an idiot, I'll take the gun kthxbai.*

thenoobbomb wrote:-How many lives have been saved with guns? (not counting people in war nor criminals)

How many lives have been saved with medicine not including curing diseases and healing injuries?

thenoobbomb wrote:Not having guns is a LOT safer. Or are there criminals that want to take you down? Or are you followed by the KKK?

Criminals will have guns because they are already breaking the law.

MrMerlin wrote:Who i do have a problem with are peolple who own guns because they think its cool. "becaue its fun to shoot with it" is not an argument for owning something that can kill a person.

So you think that people shouldn't have cars just because they think it's fun to drive around? So you think that people shouldn't have knives because they think it's fun to cook things with them? So you think people shouldn't have shovels or otehr gardening tools because they find gardening enjoyable?



* I'm reminded of Colt Manufacturing Company's old byline: "God made men**, Colt made them equal."
** As in, humankind the race.

Going by the responses the main reason is that people live in constant fear of home invasion.

I honestly don't understand the whole "guns are evil" thing, how is it a more valid argument than "knives are evil" or "chainsaws are evil"?

On the whole "guns can kill peple so should be banned" thing... So can knives, should there be a ban kitchen utensils? Bows can kill, should the tradition of Archery in England be banned? Tea Cosies are responsible for 3 deaths a year, should they be banned to?

Albatross wrote:Criminals in the USA arm themselves with guns because they have a reasonable expectation that the people they are victimising may own a firearm.

Bull freaking shat.

Criminals arm themselves with guns because it makes being a criminal easier regardless of whether or not the other person has a gun.

Melissia wrote:

MrMerlin wrote:Who i do have a problem with are peolple who own guns because they think its cool. "becaue its fun to shoot with it" is not an argument for owning something that can kill a person.[b]

So you think that people shouldn't have cars just because they think it's fun to drive around? So you think that people shouldn't have knives because they think it's fun to cook things with them? So you think people shouldn't have shovels or otehr gardening tools because they find gardening enjoyable?

a car is used to transport people
knives are used in the kitchen
garden tools are used to garden
the main purpose of a gun is to kill somone (and make peolple feel awesome because they CAN kill someone), and guns are DANGEROUS! My point was that you shouldn't own something as dangerous as a gun just for fun! If you need it for self defense, i have no problems with it AT ALL! but dont qwn a gun for fun! accidents DO happen!

So what do you say to those that own swords?