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Okay, questions and opinions.

In order to get a DC Dreadnought you need to field a DC unit consisting of at least 5 models, and 5 more for each additional dreanought.
Lemartes in my mind, is clearly a part of the DC and should count towards this number, like a sergeant in any other squad.

DC Tycho on the other hand is a whole different feth storm. It clearly says this is Tycho after his induction into the Death company, ergo Tycho is part of the Death company and should count towards this.

Now before someone asks why i would even consider this, it's not abou how viable it is, I just want a clear answer on how it works.




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Also, while were on it, DC Tycho can join death company yes?
My supporting arguments are:
It says "one [profile] to represent Tycho following his induction into the Death Company"
Meaning becoming part of the unit.

He has to become part of the unit as only one is allowed.

Some people say "Lemartes has his own profile under the Death Company, Tycho doesn't" Yes, because Lemartes doesnt exist outside of being a DC upgrade, where Tycho does, and has a non death company alternative and it would'nt make sense to split those up.

All references to him being in the death company describe him as being a part of the death company (singular), not "Following his induction into fething nothing, because he doesn't know where the death company meet for tea and biscuits on thursdays"

And unlike the Sanguinor and Mephiston, he's not a hugely expensive tank of a unit that doesn't need friends.

The above seems to overpower the contrary lack of evidence to this not being true.

Fluff and rules for both Lemartes and Tyco don't mix when your talking about the dread limit. Both of those characters are by RAW not deathcompany as its not listed in their profiles. Lemartes is a unique character and so is Tyco. Where as death company is listed as death company. So in order to have 2 DC dreads you would actually need 10 members of DC.
As a BA player I also don't let Lemartes get rerolls to wounds because he isn't a DC model.

chewielight wrote:Fluff and rules for both Lemartes and Tyco don't mix when your talking about the dread limit. Both of those characters are by RAW not deathcompany as its not listed in their profiles. Lemartes is a unique character and so is Tyco. Where as death company is listed as death company. So in order to have 2 DC dreads you would actually need 10 members of DC.
As a BA player I also don't let Lemartes get rerolls to wounds because he isn't a DC model.

LeMartes is an upgrade character for the Death company, he is "just another trooper" in the Death company unit.

P.47 under character types.

Therefore he counts.

What of Tycho? Of course he's not listed as an IC because he wouldn't be able to join any unit, only the death company, therefore its understandable that he's not an IC.

Lemartes is cut and dry in my mind, it's more Tycho that's a concern to the people I've discussed it with.

DC Tycho by himself is borderline useless. The death company are just that, a company. By all means he fits the special character role of the non jp death company option like lemartes and his jp squads. How does it make sense that he would just be wandering around on his own? That's just not what death company infantry do.

Is Tycho a model in the 'Death Company' unit detailed on page 88 of Codex Blood Angels? If not, what rule leads you to believe that a 'Death Company' model can be found outside of the 'Death Company'?

Not having the codex on me makes this difficult to answer. I will check page 88 when I return home.

Other players make me believe he wanders around on his own like a useless idiot as opposed to being part of the death company that he's described as having been placed in. I disagree with them.

[list]
As for what specific rule, I'm new to the whole blood angels thing, I was hoping someone could provide me with a straight yes, he's allowed in the death company unit, this is why..." Kind of answer.

Tycho is available in two different versions.

#1 he is "Captain Tycho" and is an IC, his special rules say (Captain) and then they list his special rules.

#2 He is "Death Company Tycho" He is not an IC, and his special rules say (Death Company) and then they list his special rules.

The rules just do not say if he is a part of the "Death Company" or not.

So is he or is he not part of the death company? If I were to field him in a squad of DC in the same way lemartes would be as a non IC, would that be okay?

Jasonobi wrote:So is he or is he not part of the death company? If I were to field him in a squad of DC in the same way lemartes would be as a non IC, would that be okay?

Does it say anywhere in the codex that you can?

>let me answer for you, it doesn't.

Thus, you don't have permission to attach tycho

Death company is bad anyway, and furiosos are better than dc dreads.

If they FaQ it they will most likely say that he is attached to the unit of Death Company, considering his fluff says that he had been inducted into the death company.

Currently it is not clear.

Currently it is clear. There is no rule that states that he is a part of the Death Company unit. Therefore he's not. Its not ambiguous.

I'm attaching him. If they didn't want him there, they wouldn't have made him.

He's described as being death company, and it seems that being death company would make you death company.
That's the only rule I need.

If it looks like a DC sounds like a DC and acts like a DC, chances are it's a DC.

And at the very least I can judge the quality of my opponents by their reactions. Way to go obscurity!

As far as I'm concerned he's the same as lemartes, but no jump pack and an HQ choice with options!

Jasonobi wrote:I'm attaching him. If they didn't want him there, they wouldn't have made him.

He's described as being death company, and it seems that being death company would make you death company.
That's the only rule I need.

If it looks like a DC sounds like a DC and acts like a DC, chances are it's a DC.

And at the very least I can judge the quality of my opponents by their reactions. Way to go obscurity!

As far as I'm concerned he's the same as lemartes, but no jump pack and an HQ choice with options!

Any quality opponent follows the rules bro.

Just because you think something should act some way doesn't give you license to just play it that way.

I believe all my lascannons should be str 10+2d6 AP1..... doesn't mean my opponents are jerks if they don't let me play em that way.

Jasonobi wrote:I'm attaching him. If they didn't want him there, they wouldn't have made him.

He's described as being death company, and it seems that being death company would make you death company.
That's the only rule I need.

If it looks like a DC sounds like a DC and acts like a DC, chances are it's a DC.

And at the very least I can judge the quality of my opponents by their reactions. Way to go obscurity!

As far as I'm concerned he's the same as lemartes, but no jump pack and an HQ choice with options!

The exact same "logic" applies to DC Dreads. DC Dreads are members of the Death Company, and thus they can now be attached to units of Death Company.

Or we could follow the rules, where DC Tycho isn't an IC and doesn't have any rules to attach him to units of Death Company and thus not attach him.

IC isn't a good enough argument in this case. Its inappropriate for the character to have, which is exactly why lemartes doesn't have it.

The walkers argument has some validity yes, and I had considered it. However, the rulebook is far too vague in either case as to what it means by him being deathcompany, what is fluff and what is rules.

The only conclusion that can safely be drawn from this thread is that there is no general consensus and the ruling is unclear/disputed.

Therefore I will play it until the good people who make the rules decide to clarify.

The rulebook also states the number 1 Rule is to have fun, and I'm about to.

Violators of rule 1 will be prosecuted.

lol.

The rule isn't unclear just because you say it is....

and just because you think its fun to make up rules as you go isn't a reason to do so.

You will violate everyone else's rule number 1 (having fun) when you start making things up as you go.

Jasonobi wrote:IC isn't a good enough argument in this case. Its inappropriate for the character to have, which is exactly why lemartes doesn't have it.

The walkers argument has some validity yes, and I had considered it. However, the rulebook is far too vague in either case as to what it means by him being deathcompany, what is fluff and what is rules.

The only conclusion that can safely be drawn from this thread is that there is no general consensus and the ruling is unclear/disputed.

Therefore I will play it until the good people who make the rules decide to clarify.

The rulebook also states the number 1 Rule is to have fun, and I'm about to.

Violators of rule 1 will be prosecuted.

It's not unclear in the slightest. If DC Tycho was meant to be attached to units of DC he'd have rules to put him there. He doesn't, and merely calling him Death Company Tycho doesn't confer anything. He doesn't have any rules making that "Death Company" meaningful, and so it is fluff.

If you're properly informing your opponents that the rules don't give you permission to do this but you're doing it anyway, and they agree, then that's fine. But if not, then you are cheating them.

As long as there's an opponent who wants a challenge and not an easy win, then everything will be allright.

A quick glance at DC Tycho's profile is enough to notice he doesn't have what it take to be running around on his own on the battlefield like a heat seeking missle to the nearest enemy.

Plus I'm not making up rules, I'm seeking clarification on codex terminology which has turned out to be an argument between people who have no authority on the matter because (whether you care to admit it or not) it is clearly unclear as there is evidence to support the contrary of either side of the argument.

Now, should my opponents decide that this is too much for them to handle and that they couldn't bear to lose a game, well then I will have to go find some opponents who care a little less about winning all the time. In the meantime I will continue to search for the truth of the matter elsewhere.

Thank you all for clarifying the subjects of Lemartes and DC dreads, you were very helpful. To all who put input in on Tycho, while I'm forced to say the results are inconclusive due to underwhelming support and evidence for any argument, I appreciate your inputs.

... its not inconclusive.

It doesn't say you can do what you want to do.

Therefore it cannot be done.

You can't read fluff as rules, no matter what they say. Its not if they are "afraid to lose" or desperate to win or not, its just that they want to play the game with the rules provided by the makers.

DeathReaper wrote:

chewielight wrote:Fluff and rules for both Lemartes and Tyco don't mix when your talking about the dread limit. Both of those characters are by RAW not deathcompany as its not listed in their profiles. Lemartes is a unique character and so is Tyco. Where as death company is listed as death company. So in order to have 2 DC dreads you would actually need 10 members of DC.
As a BA player I also don't let Lemartes get rerolls to wounds because he isn't a DC model.

LeMartes is an upgrade character for the Death company, he is "just another trooper" in the Death company unit.

P.47 under character types.

Actually he isn't an upgrade , C:BA says may take lemartes at x cost and does not say upgrade a member of dc to lemartes . He is an add-on unique character that is allowed to join the squad per the codex. RAW he isn't listed as a death company in anything but the fluff. Look under unit type and what do you see DC squad (it states death company is the name of the model.) Look under lamartes and it states unique. Nothing RAW gives him status as death company. This is the same argument as the sang priest Nov in honor guards when it comes to upgrades. Now if they stated he was an upgrade like a nob is to a group of boys or an exarch is to an aspect squad then I would agree, but this isn't the case.

As nice as it would be for him to count towards the DC dread limit, it just isn't. There is nothing in the codex aside from fluff that backs your stance up.

Can you actually point to a rule that suggests his joining DC is possible?

If you're basing it on the name, do you believe that a Death Company Dread can be attached to a unit of Death Company? If not, why not?

If you're basing it on the line indicating he was inducted into the Death Company, then why not Mephiston who was also inducted into the Death Company?

It may surprise you, but people get annoyed when someone asks if they can do something and when told they can't with explanations of why say "I guess it's a grey area, I'm going to do it anyway." It gives people the impression that you were never actually interested in what they had to say because you'd already made up your mind, and thus that they wasted their time in answering you.

Jasonobi wrote:I'm attaching him. If they didn't want him there, they wouldn't have made him.

He's described as being death company, and it seems that being death company would make you death company.
That's the only rule I need.

If it looks like a DC sounds like a DC and acts like a DC, chances are it's a DC.

And at the very least I can judge the quality of my opponents by their reactions. Way to go obscurity!

As far as I'm concerned he's the same as lemartes, but no jump pack and an HQ choice with options!

Then you would be incorrect. He is like mephy and sanguinor in that unless given permission to join a unit or is listed as a squad upgrade ( which niether he nor lemartes is) or given IC tag then he is stuck on his own. He is the same in many respects as lemartes just without permission to be added to the squad. Fluff does not make rules.

I'm trying to waste less time by ending this pointless discussion. I'm not going to be entering any tournaments with a disputable army, I can and will do whatever I want, including fielding a DC potato if I so choose and the people I play with agree to play with it.

I said I appreciated everybodys input and I'm now going to continue seeking out a solid, GW approved answer in the odd chance that it might be surprising what comes up.

In the meantime I'll be forming a list that is nowhere near seriously including tycho in any form.

Life isn't black and white, rules can sometimes conflict. It's apparent the codex isn't perfect and what really matters is that the players playing the actual game consider it fair.



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Let's do everyone a favour and drop the Tycho discussion.

Jasonobi wrote:Now, should my opponents decide that this is too much for them to handle and that they couldn't bear to lose a game, well then I will have to go find some opponents who care a little less about winning all the time. In the meantime I will continue to search for the truth of the matter elsewhere.

I find it interesting how many people make statements like this while objecting to all of those other people who are being unreasonable for not wanting to do it my way, dammit!

Thank you all for clarifying the subjects of Lemartes and DC dreads, you were very helpful. To all who put input in on Tycho, while I'm forced to say the results are inconclusive due to underwhelming support and evidence for any argument, I appreciate your inputs.

What you're seeing as lack of evidence is actually the entire point. There is nothing that says that he joins the Death Company unit and so he doesn't.

Jasonobi wrote:As long as there's an opponent who wants a challenge and not an easy win, then everything will be allright.

A quick glance at DC Tycho's profile is enough to notice he doesn't have what it take to be running around on his own on the battlefield like a heat seeking missle to the nearest enemy.

Plus I'm not making up rules, I'm seeking clarification on codex terminology which has turned out to be an argument between people who have no authority on the matter because (whether you care to admit it or not) it is clearly unclear as there is evidence to support the contrary of either side of the argument.

Now, should my opponents decide that this is too much for them to handle and that they couldn't bear to lose a game, well then I will have to go find some opponents who care a little less about winning all the time. In the meantime I will continue to search for the truth of the matter elsewhere.

Thank you all for clarifying the subjects of Lemartes and DC dreads, you were very helpful. To all who put input in on Tycho, while I'm forced to say the results are inconclusive due to underwhelming support and evidence for any argument, I appreciate your inputs.

- Removed by insaniak. Please see Dakka's Rule #1 -

insaniak wrote:

Jasonobi wrote:Now, should my opponents decide that this is too much for them to handle and that they couldn't bear to lose a game, well then I will have to go find some opponents who care a little less about winning all the time. In the meantime I will continue to search for the truth of the matter elsewhere.

I find it interesting how many people make statements like this while objecting to all of those other people who are being unreasonable for not wanting to do it my way, dammit!

Thank you all for clarifying the subjects of Lemartes and DC dreads, you were very helpful. To all who put input in on Tycho, while I'm forced to say the results are inconclusive due to underwhelming support and evidence for any argument, I appreciate your inputs.

What you're seeing as lack of evidence is actually the entire point. There is nothing that says that he joins the Death Company unit and so he doesn't.

Whatever point you're trying to make is not required. I asked for a clarification on rules. Seeing as there is no common consensus I'm going to just avoid the issue by not fielding the guy against people who dont want to play him. In the meantime for fun - the point of the game - i will field him when possible as it is reasonable that he would be part of the unit. Because the fluff is an equally important part of the game which is why it shares equal space in the codex, if not more than the rules. Which allow use to play the game that is based around the fluff. Now if I chose to enjoy the game in my circle the way I want to, then that's the whole point now isn't it?

I don't see what the issue is with trying something new out and seeing how it works. I could say that there's nothing specific that says he doesn't join it, though the text is highly suggestive that he has.

"He's not an IC" yeah I get it. I knew that from the beginning. I probably even mentioned it. Lets drop it, I wasn't aware inquiring as to whether or not he was actually capable of doing what he's supposed was cause for such alarm. I suppose it was too much of me to expect that an HQ model would have a degree of functionality. I forgot the intent of the game was to produce gak that doesn't work well with anything it's supposed to so as to provide limited play options and an underwhelming gaming experience.





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Katfish! wrote:- Removed by insaniak. Please see Dakka's Rule #1 -

Thanks, I'm a new player and you're incredibly unhelpful. I don't know the rules which is why I'm asking. I was hoping the army I picked would be multidimensional and that there would be some exciting possibilities that I was eager to pursue. -Removed by insaniak. Please see Dakka's Rule #1- Thanks for the contribution.

Jasonobi wrote:I said I appreciated everybodys input and I'm now going to continue seeking out a solid, GW approved answer in the odd chance that it might be surprising what comes up.

Translation: I'm going to keep asking this question until I hear the answer I want.

Agreed with the above.

If they wanted him to join the DC and the DC only, then there have been mechanisms for non-ICs to do that for quite a number of years now - Hive Tyrants and Tyrant Guard

So - there is no general rule (IC status) allowing him to join - so he cant

There is no specific, HT-alike rule, allowing him to join - so he cant

Totally and 100% unambiguous - he cannot join.

Apologies that we havent given you the answer you wanted. Oh, and there IS consensus on this topic. You're the exception

Jasonobi wrote:Whatever point you're trying to make is not required. I asked for a clarification on rules. Seeing as there is no common consensus I'm going to just avoid the issue by not fielding the guy against people who dont want to play him. In the meantime for fun - the point of the game - i will field him when possible as it is reasonable that he would be part of the unit. Because the fluff is an equally important part of the game which is why it shares equal space in the codex, if not more than the rules. Which allow use to play the game that is based around the fluff. Now if I chose to enjoy the game in my circle the way I want to, then that's the whole point now isn't it?

The point I was making is the 'be reasonable and do it my way[/i] approach doesn't actually cut a lot of mustard in the real world. Refusing to play people because they don't want to use your house rule, and then assuming that the reason they won't agree to your rule is because they 'just want to win' is not going to win you any friends. Or see you playing a lot of games.

No matter how many times you insist otherwise, there is a common concensus here. The only person claiming that the issue is unclear is you. In YMDC, when you get half a dozen different people all saying the same thing without someone sticking there head in and saying 'Well... actually... ' that's usually a fairly good indication that the rule is actually fairly clear.

There is no problem with 'trying something new'... so long as you accept that what you're trying to do isn't how the rules actually say to do it. Approach it as a house rule, and don't get upset when some people don't want to play that way, and you won't have any problems.

I could say that there's nothing specific that says he doesn't join it, though the text is highly suggestive that he has.

The fluff text is nothing to do with the actual rules. The rules don't say that he joins the DC, so he doesn't.

'It doesn't say I can't' doesn't work in a set of game rules. The rules of Monopoly don't say that the player using the Battleship can't shoot the other players. It makes sense that he would be able to... It's a battleship! But shooting other players simply isn't provided as an option by the rules.

Same thing here. The rules provide the options for Tycho. Joining the DC is not one of those options. So you can't do it.

The rules provide the framework of what you can do. Aside from certain specific situations where it is necessary to point it out, they don't go into all the things you can't do... the book would need to be a mile thick to cover everything. Instead, they proviude a framework, and anything not covered by that framework is something that is simply not an option. 'It doesn't say I can't' is never a sufficient proof that something is possible within the rules.