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The rules for ruins state that template weapons may fire "up" one level from the firer. The rules for the Hellhound tell you to place the template anywhere within 12", and that the rules then apply to it as it would any other template weapon.

Can a Hellhound fire its main weapon at a unit on the 3rd story of a ruin, provided that it has the range?

Hmmm, good question. I'll keep an eye on this thread.

I would say yes, as the HH's rules for it's template are more specific that the the ruin rules for all templates.... just my opinion.

Agree with above, though I could see that firing templates at ruins is more specific then HH firing rule. Someone give nos a call, he probably can give a good answer.

Page 85 states that you declare the level being targeted before the template is placed, so i'm saying no, having 12" of space to place the template does not allow you to ignore the weapon's targeting restrictions.

isnt the place the weapon is being fired from where the point 12 inches from where the gun is? so wouldn't the template weapon restriction be from the 12 inches away form the HH. im going to work on saying that without a diagram...

matter of interpretation id say. my method can technically get you 12 inches + another level up but that might be "unfair"

The HH entry says "To fire the Inferno Cannon, place the template so that the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon...", which means you must have already targeted a level as per the rules about Template weapons targeting units in ruins on page 85, "The firer must declare which level is being targeted before placing the template."

Placing the template and then declaring the target level isn't correct, you must first declare the level and then place the template, only when placing the template does the 12" range come into play.

Yes, but the hellhound says to place the template within 12 inches of the gun barrel, then follow the template rules. So, you could place it anywhere you want within 12 inches of the barrel before you take into account the rules for template weapons.

-cgmckenzie

It does not say that it ceases to be a Template weapon until that point, it just says that from that point on it is treated like any other Template weapon to tell you that there are no other different rules. It still has 'Range: Template'.

"To fire the inferno cannon, place the template so that the narrow end is within 12" of the weapons and the large end is no closer to the weapon than the narrow end. The inferno cannon is then treated like any other template weapon."

Follow these steps:

1)Place template.
2)Check that it is within 12" and the fat end is not closer than the skinner end.
3)Follow template rules from this point on.

By the time that you have to use the template rules, the placement has already happened, so you ignore the parts about placement in the template rules.

-cgmckenzie

Please point to where it says you ignore the rules for Templates whilst targeting. By the time the template placement rules have come in, you have already targeted the unit, and there is nothing to say that the Template rules are ignored during that point, only during template placement.

How then do you think we go about targeting the enemy unit? If we don't follow the rules for targeting using templates, then this thread is unnecessary, since we've already passed the stage where you target a floor by the time we reach template placement, but then that breaks the game if you manage to have models from several floors under the same template, since we have reverted to the Template rules again and it can only affect models under the template on a single level, the one you targeted; in this example, no level was targeted, so what happens?

Avatar 720 wrote:Please point to where it says you ignore the rules for Templates whilst targeting.

"To fire the inferno cannon, place the template so that the narrow end is within 12" of the weapons and the large end is no closer to the weapon than the narrow end. The inferno cannon is then treated like any other template weapon."

The part in bold tells you to ignore normal placement rules . . . otherwise it wouldn't be possible because the normal placement rules require you to place the template in contact wit the base of the firing model.

Avatar 720 wrote:
By the time the template placement rules have come in, you have already targeted the unit, and there is nothing to say that the Template rules are ignored during that point, only during template placement.

This is self-contradictory. "By the time the template placement rules have come in .... there is nothing to say that the Template [placement] rules are ignored, only template placement.

Avatar 720 wrote:
How then do you think we go about targeting the enemy unit? If we don't follow the rules for targeting using templates, then this thread is unnecessary, since we've already passed the stage where you target a floor by the time we reach template placement, but then that breaks the game if you manage to have models from several floors under the same template, since we have reverted to the Template rules again and it can only affect models under the template on a single level, the one you targeted; in this example, no level was targeted, so what happens?

What happens is you treat it like a blast template, I.E. target a floor, fire at said floor, resolve. It's just that, unlike flamers, the template placement rules are overridden and so you can place it over the third floor of a ruin.

The part in bold tells you to ignore normal placement rules . . . otherwise it wouldn't be possible because the normal placement rules require you to place the template in contact wit the base of the firing model.

Please re-read my request. I asked for permission to ignore targeting restrictions not placement rules.

This is self-contradictory.

No it is not, again, re-read my post. You managed to ' ... ' out a vital part of the sentence you quoted, which was "...you have already targeted the unit...", and you placed a word in there which did not belong.

I would ask you to please, in future, avoid trying to tamper with quotes to try and disprove an argument. The full quote is:

"By the time the template placement rules have come in, you have already targeted the unit, and there is nothing to say that the Template rules are ignored during that point, only during template placement."

And as this paragraph will explain, the bit you left out is the 'point' I mentioned where it does not say the Template rules are ignored. The deliberate excision of part of the quote, and the wrongful injection of the word [Placement] in your response, is not a good way to make a point.

What happens is you treat it like a blast template, I.E. target a floor, fire at said floor, resolve. It's just that, unlike flamers, the template placement rules are overridden and so you can place it over the third floor of a ruin.

Firstly, where does it tell you to treat it like a blast weapon?

Secondly, Blast weapons still need to target a floor, and in this instance no floor is targeted if we do not use the Template rules until after placement. Since no floor was targeted, what happens when models on multiple floors are hit by a template placed over them?

The rules for using Templates on ruins are in force now we treat it as a Template weapon, and those rules mention that only models on a single level - the level you targeted - are affected. However, if we do it your way, and don't treat it as a Template weapon for targeting purposes, no level has been targeted, therefore you cannot affect any models.

The wording of the Inferno Cannon rules overrides NOTHING except the normal requirement that the template be placed in contact with the firing model. The only thing that's different is that you're allowed to, effectively, treat any point within 12" as the point of origin.

In all other ways, you use the normal template rules, including those for targeting a level in a ruin. Since you must target a specific level in the ruin BEFORE placing the template (the fact that the Inferno Cannon template can be placed 12" away does not affect this in the slightest) the Inferno Cannon must target a specific level, following the normal template rules for doing so.

So no, you can't shoot the third level.

I fail to see how the third level cannot be "anywhere within 12 inches".

Lordhat wrote:I fail to see how the third level cannot be "anywhere within 12 inches".

Please note the other posts in the thread.

The issue here is that you are given permission to ignore the regular rules for template placement, leading to the situation where the OP thinks he can place it on the third level if it is within 12".

The counter is that you are not given permission to ignore the targeting restrictions of the weapon, which allow you to target up to 1 level above and 1 level below.

The order of firing goes thusly:
Select target
Place template
Resolve as normal

The Inferno Cannon is given permission to place the template within 12", unlike regular template placement rules. It is not, however, exempted from ignoring the targeting restrictions that preceed template placement, which specify the floors it is able to target.

No, you place the template within range BEFORE taking into account the rules for normal template placement. Only after the final placement of the template has been determined do the normal rules for templates come into play.

The normal rules for template placement do not apply to the hellhound because of the specific firing sequence given in the rules. Because the rules say to place the template before regarding the rules for normal template placement, it must be assumed that they override the rules for normal template shenanigans.

The I.G. book also came out after the 5th edition BGB, so it took into account the rules for template placement as per normal but only tells us to use them after the template's final position has been determined.

-cgmckenzie

edit:drunk and wrestling with synonyms.

cgm- I agree with Avatar et al;

You first declareba target, which if it is in a ruin is allowed to be one level displaced from your current level, and as per the ruin rules occurs before you place the template

Next you place the template, following the HHound specific rules.

Edit: what youre missing is the initial requirement in ALL shooting, which is targrtting a unit. You cannot place the template until after yiu have targetted a unit, which is before the hell hounds specific rules can take effect

cgmckenzie wrote:No, you place the template within range BEFORE taking into account the rules for normal template placement. Only after the final placement of the template has been determined do the normal rules for templates come into play.

The normal rules for template placement do not apply to the hellhound because of the specific firing sequence given in the rules. Because the rules say to place the template before regarding the rules for normal template placement, it must be assumed that they override the rules for normal template shenanigans.

The I.G. book also came out after the 5th edition BGB, so it took into account the rules for template placement as per normal but only tells us to use them after the template's final position has been determined.

-cgmckenzie

edit:drunk and wrestling with synonyms.

You're ignoring the rules for firing at units inside ruins, which explicitly state that you declare which level is being targeted before template placement even happens, I believe I have already quoted the rule at least once.

Targeting =/= Template placement.

I don't know why you keep mentioning template placement when I am talking about targeting.

Agree to nos and avatar 720. The range has absolutely no bearing on what you can target. Anything further up or down than one level is the same as out of sight.

The question that comes to mind here is, does the Hellhound count as being higher than level one due to being a vehicle? And checking my rulebook gives nothing of the sort - only skimmers, jump infantry and jetbikes are given an exception.

I could see material for a house rule here, if the HH turret is high enough above the ground. But basic rules is it can only fire at lvl 1 or 2.

So is the sould grinder maw template, most flamers on dreadnaughts, and about any flamer shot out of a firepoint. I don't think there is a point in changing the rules for template-tossing models only.