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Here we go!

Impaler Cannons:

Pg 47, Tyranid Codex:

"The Target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if it lies between them and the Hive Guard."

New FAQ for Tyranids:

"Q: Can a unit take cover saves from any source other
than the terrain they are in, or touching, against
Wounds caused by an impaler cannon? (p47)
A: No."

So: What does this mean for vehicles, if anything? The FAQ specifes "wounds", but I could see this being applied to vehicles as well. I'm on the fence as to the interpretation.

Which of these, if any, will receive a cover save from an Impaler Cannon?

1. Rhino which popped smoke?

2. Landspeeder that moved flat out?

3. Battlewagon in KFF range?

Or, if none of these, under what circumstances CAN a vehicle receive a cover save against the Impaler Cannon?

What say you, Dakka?

I believe it does since cover saves for vehicles work with glances/pens exactly the way they do for wounds.

I really don't see how this is a question. The FAQ clearly states that a unit, in this case the vehicle is its own unit, does not receive cover from anything except terrain. This means that popped smoke, flat out, KFF, and any other cover save, except terrain, does not work.

This would also mean that there are NO circumstances under which a vehicle can receive a cover save.

Darthslowe wrote:I really don't see how this is a question. The FAQ clearly states that a unit, in this case the vehicle is its own unit, does not receive cover from anything except terrain. This means that popped smoke, flat out, KFF, and any other cover save, except terrain, does not work.

This would also mean that there are NO circumstances under which a vehicle can receive a cover save.

wrong, if the vehicle is in a ruin that is blocking los or obscuring enough then it gets the cover save. if it is behind the ruin blocking los and in the open then it doesn not get the cover save.

Darthslowe wrote:I really don't see how this is a question. The FAQ clearly states that a unit, in this case the vehicle is its own unit, does not receive cover from anything except terrain. This means that popped smoke, flat out, KFF, and any other cover save, except terrain, does not work.

This would also mean that there are NO circumstances under which a vehicle can receive a cover save.

The question is because the FAQ states cover from 'Wounds'. Vehicles don't take 'Wounds'.

puma713 wrote:

Darthslowe wrote:I really don't see how this is a question. The FAQ clearly states that a unit, in this case the vehicle is its own unit, does not receive cover from anything except terrain. This means that popped smoke, flat out, KFF, and any other cover save, except terrain, does not work.

This would also mean that there are NO circumstances under which a vehicle can receive a cover save.

The question is because the FAQ states cover from 'Wounds'. Vehicles don't take 'Wounds'.

Go read the section on saves. You don't get invuln saves against glances/pens either, RAW.

Vehicles only get cover saves based on LOS, not based on terrain. So they'd have to be touching a piece of terrain obscuring them 50% or more to get a cover save. It says they can ONLY get saves via terrain, not COVER, so no saves from anything classified as COVER except TERRAIN, so no save from intervening units, special rules, etc.

This is a ridiculously huge buff and makes Hive Guard one of the strongest anti-eldar units in the game.

Traceoftoxin wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Darthslowe wrote:I really don't see how this is a question. The FAQ clearly states that a unit, in this case the vehicle is its own unit, does not receive cover from anything except terrain. This means that popped smoke, flat out, KFF, and any other cover save, except terrain, does not work.

This would also mean that there are NO circumstances under which a vehicle can receive a cover save.

The question is because the FAQ states cover from 'Wounds'. Vehicles don't take 'Wounds'.

Go read the section on saves. You don't get invuln saves against glances/pens either, RAW.

Right. And in cases where vehicles had Invulnerable saves (Bjorn) they were FAQ'ed to work.

Traceoftoxin wrote:Vehicles only get cover saves based on LOS, not based on terrain. So they'd have to be touching a piece of terrain obscuring them 50% or more to get a cover save. It says they can ONLY get saves via terrain, not COVER, so no saves from anything classified as COVER except TERRAIN, so no save from intervening units, special rules, etc.

This is a ridiculously huge buff and makes Hive Guard one of the strongest anti-eldar units in the game.

This is still missing the point. The FAQ states:

Q: Can a unit take cover saves from any source other
than the terrain they are in, or touching, against
Wounds caused by an impaler cannon? (p47)
A: No.

That's all well and good, but vehicles don't take wounds. If it had said "against penetrating/glancing hits", then this FAQ would apply to vehicles.

I'm not saying I am agreeing with this interpretation or that I would play that way, but it has to be brought to light because it will come up.

Traceoftoxin wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Darthslowe wrote:I really don't see how this is a question. The FAQ clearly states that a unit, in this case the vehicle is its own unit, does not receive cover from anything except terrain. This means that popped smoke, flat out, KFF, and any other cover save, except terrain, does not work.

This would also mean that there are NO circumstances under which a vehicle can receive a cover save.

The question is because the FAQ states cover from 'Wounds'. Vehicles don't take 'Wounds'.

Vehicles only get cover saves based on LOS, not based on terrain. So they'd have to be touching a piece of terrain obscuring them 50% or more to get a cover save. It says they can ONLY get saves via terrain, not COVER, so no saves from anything classified as COVER except TERRAIN, so no save from intervening units, special rules, etc.

What about cover from wargear? Or rather, a cover SAVE prodvided by wargear(i.e. smoke launchers, KFF)

Traceoftoxin wrote:
Go read the section on saves. You don't get invuln saves against glances/pens either, RAW.

Some of us do. From the DE FAQ:

Q: Can I take a flickerfield save against becoming
immobilised from a Dangerous Terrain test? (p63)
A: No. The save from a flickerfield can only be taken
against glancing and penetrating hits.

So the flickerfield save, an invulnerable save, can only be taken against glancing and penetrating hits.

So you get invul saves against glances and pens.

puma - and vehicles take cover saves in the same way everyone else does, but with wounds replaced by penetrating or glancing hits

So this FAQ affects Vehicles as well, and makes HG an even more obvious choice

nosferatu1001 wrote:puma - and vehicles take cover saves in the same way everyone else does, but with wounds replaced by penetrating or glancing hits

So this FAQ affects Vehicles as well, and makes HG an even more obvious choice

Yes I know. I will be fielding 6 of them. However, I fully expect it to come up in a game/at a tournament.

time wizard wrote:

Traceoftoxin wrote:
Go read the section on saves. You don't get invuln saves against glances/pens either, RAW.

Some of us do. From the DE FAQ:

Q: Can I take a flickerfield save against becoming
immobilised from a Dangerous Terrain test? (p63)
A: No. The save from a flickerfield can only be taken
against glancing and penetrating hits.

So the flickerfield save, an invulnerable save, can only be taken against glancing and penetrating hits.

So you get invul saves against glances and pens.

That didn't exist before. It's even more evidence that the wording 'wounds' in this situation can be substituted for 'glancing and penetrating hits'. It wasn't FAQed to work, it was FAQed to be clear. FAQs don't change the way things work fundamentally, they clarify the intent. Erratas change the way things work fundamentally.

This is crazy. My Kan Wall army just went from awesome to useless against my friend's Tyranids due to one FAQed unit, if this works against vehicles.

Not that I don't think Tyranids need some help, but come on.

Murrdox wrote:This is crazy. My Kan Wall army just went from awesome to useless against my friend's Tyranids due to one FAQed unit, if this works against vehicles.

Not that I don't think Tyranids need some help, but come on.

I don't think it's as bad as you think.
HG are expensive, you could only have a max of 9, and that would use up all 3 elite FOC choices.
The impaler cannon only has a 24" range.

You'll might see more HG showing up, which at $24.75 per model is probably what GW wants!
Each brood is over $75!

Murrdox wrote:This is crazy. My Kan Wall army just went from awesome to useless against my friend's Tyranids due to one FAQed unit, if this works against vehicles.

Not that I don't think Tyranids need some help, but come on.

Honestly I think it hurt Kans the most, as they are going to be in Hive Guard range from turn 2 on, and aren't exactly hard to destroy.

for the KFF I'd make the argument they are in cover though. The KFF projects a 6" bubble of obscured terrain. If it can protect you when the truck your riding in explodes, then surely it is surrounding and protecting each figure in the bubble.

That's fine for a fluff argument but has no feet to stand on for rules.

It provides a cover save, not a bubble of terrain.

Murrdox wrote:This is crazy. My Kan Wall army just went from awesome to useless against my friend's Tyranids due to one FAQed unit, if this works against vehicles.

Not that I don't think Tyranids need some help, but come on.

I feel your pain. At least I'm in the process of moving to a BW list (which may still suck depending on what facing they are hitting). Kan Walls are definitely going to hurt worse though.

Glad I don't face 'nids very often.

The strange thing is most FAQ rulings at least have their basis in the text of the codex, or an interpretation of the Codex combined with the Core Rulebook.

Suddenly changing Hive Guard such that it bypasses any and all Wargear which grants a cover save simply doesn't work against it really isn't mentioned anywhere in the Codex whatsoever. I don't think I've ever ran into a Tyranid player who read the Impaler Cannon rule and tried to say that popping smoke or a KFF had no effect on it.

Oh well. That Battlewagon and Green Tide army I'm working on are suddenly looking more appealing (one of my close friends plays Tyranids, so I run into them fairly often)

sirlynchmob wrote:for the KFF I'd make the argument they are in cover though. The KFF projects a 6" bubble of obscured terrain. If it can protect you when the truck your riding in explodes, then surely it is surrounding and protecting each figure in the bubble.

No, it doesnt provide a bubble of obscured terrain, it makes vehicles have a 5+ cover save

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but since only terrain provides cover saves, does that mean intervening vehicles do not give cover (even if you're touching them)?

So if you had a Rhino hidden out of LoS behind a Land Raider (and touching it) you don't get cover.
However if the Land raider gets Wrecked (thus becoming terrain), now you do get a cover save?

Seems odd, but I'll give Nids all the buffs they can get.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but since only terrain provides cover saves, does that mean intervening vehicles do not give cover (even if you're touching them)?

So if you had a Rhino hidden out of LoS behind a Land Raider (and touching it) you don't get cover.
However if the Land raider gets Wrecked (thus becoming terrain), now you do get a cover save?

Partially correct. Since you only benefit from cover you are in or touching, even if the rhino was behind the wrecked land raider, it would not get a cover save. It would have to be in the terrain, or in this case on top of the wrecked land raider, and 50% obscured to get the cover save.

The FAQ says you get cover saves from cover you are in or touching which is confusing because to get a cover save according to the main rulebook, you must be at least partially in the terrain.
Not sure what they mean by terrain you are in, or touching.

Reading it literally, I suppose if you were touching a wrecked land raider with a rhino, you would get a cover save by the FAQ. But would you have to take a difficult terrain test to touch the raider?
By adding 2 words, GW opens a new can of worms.

The guy who answered that question is as bad at reading comprehension as the players that have been trying to deny people cover saves from Impaler cannons... The cannon text never mentions cover saves. What they do mention is cover, a status that might grant you a cover save.

Another round about question, does war gear provide cover as if it's a terrain cover save?

drorain wrote:Another round about question, does war gear provide cover as if it's a terrain cover save?

No. The FAQ says you can't take a cover save from any source other than the terrain.

Wargear and special rules would qualify as other sources.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:for the KFF I'd make the argument they are in cover though. The KFF projects a 6" bubble of obscured terrain. If it can protect you when the truck your riding in explodes, then surely it is surrounding and protecting each figure in the bubble.

No, it doesnt provide a bubble of obscured terrain, it makes vehicles have a 4+ cover save

Fixed.

time wizard wrote:
The FAQ says you get cover saves from cover you are in or touching which is confusing because to get a cover save according to the main rulebook, you must be at least partially in the terrain.
Not sure what they mean by terrain you are in, or touching.

Reading it literally, I suppose if you were touching a wrecked land raider with a rhino, you would get a cover save by the FAQ. But would you have to take a difficult terrain test to touch the raider?
By adding 2 words, GW opens a new can of worms.

I believe the "touching" terrain is specifically a reference to Barricades... meaning non-area terrain that units benefit from if they are touching it. If you look in the BRB I believe the text there references that if the base of a unit is "touching" the barricade, they benefit from the cover. Since a Barricade isn't area terrain, the model can't be "in" the terrain, it has to touch it instead.

We use Barricades occasionally, but I don't see many other people using them. I think the FAQ and the Impaler Cannon wording are written that way to explicitly allow you to take saves if you are behind a Barricade.

Very nice:

A vehicle can't use other vehicles (that aren't wrecked) to generate cover from the impaler cannon.

Nob-bikers won't get thier cover saves from kicking up dust.

Our ranged anti-tank unit just got better... but then it is the only anti-tank ranged weapon worth a darn in this codex. It's not like we get Purifiers + Razor Spam + Psy-Cannon Dreads or Valks + Autocannon squads + Vet Meltagun Spam; or LF + Razor Spam + Meltagun Hunters. The nid's ranged anti-tank is pigeoned holed into 3 elite slots. Moreover, given that HG have short range and have to walk on in DoW, we are still getting kicked in the teeth in 1/3 of the missions.

Its hardly the end of the world.

The FAQ states a unit may not take a Cover save from anything other than the terrain they are in or touching.


For me and I will argue this....

1. My vehicle is not taking a cover save, covering saves come from terrain. My Invulnerable save (Flickerfield/KFF) is given to me by wargear, thus not a cover save.

2. My vehicle does not take wounds. It take glancing hits or pentrating hits....

It HAS to be this way otherwise all armour saves, (IE:terminators with 2+/3++ wont get an invulnerable save because the they arent in cover?) an Archon with Shadowfield and every other piece of wargear in the whole universe is nullified by a tyranid weapon.... Its impossible, illogical and just a shining example of why GW need to hire a lawyer to word there rules.

Good luck with that.