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I know for a fact that the SW dont follow the codex and therefore dont adhere to the standard organization of a SM chapter. However is it possible for other chapters within the imperium that dont follow the codex word for word to change the internal organization of their chapter? For example keeping to the rules regarding the number of space marines in a chapter but dividing them up into a greater/lesser amount of companies? For example 15 companies consisting of 75men or 20 consisting of 50 or even 5 consisting of 200 per company? Is this possible or would it be considered heretical?

Yes, Chapters that don't follow the Codex Astartes would have their own internal organisation.

Even those who do more or less follow the Codex often have their own slightly different versions of the Codex formations.

Thanks. Is tampering with the organization of a chapter frowned upon by other chapters at all or is it completely accepted? Finding it hard to find some info on this.

Depends on the chapter, the Space Wolves probably wouldn't care for example, but the Ultramarines might frown at it. Mind you it would probably end there, even the most militantly Codex chapter isn't going to declare war against a more easygoing one without a much better reason than that.

From the small fraction of the thousand Astartes Chapters that have been described in any detail by the studio, it would appear to be exceedingly rare for a Chapter to command more than one thousand Marines. I can think of only three (Space Wolves, Black Templars and Astral Claws) of the dozens of chapters GW detailed over the years.

The logical conclusion would be that, whether from dogmatic adherence to the Codex, or for practical ones of recruitment and training, the thousand man limit is the rule in the overwhelming majority of cases.

So far as variant organisation within the thousand man limit goes, the only example I can call to mind would be the Salamanders, sugggesting that this too would be exceedingly rare.

I can remember reading some fluff somewhere that said The Grey Knights have around 3000+ marines in their Chapter.
This would mean that they have more than 10 companies.
If this so then it is also not aligned with the Codex, but on the other hand, they are a Chapter assign to the Inquisition.

I guess it's one rule for one and one for another.

That's been retconned - as of the 2011 codex, the Grey Knights are around the one thousand mark.

In any case, the Grey Knights are so far from being Standard Astartes as to be only peripherally relevant to the discussion.

English Assassin wrote:That's been retconned - as of the 2011 codex, the Grey Knights are around the one thousand mark.

In any case, the Grey Knights are so far from being Standard Astartes as to be only peripherally relevant to the discussion.

I stand corrected sorry for the confusion, i guess i need to go update my knowledge lol

Some chapter like Space Wolves do have more than 10 companies, but hardly never exceed the 1000 marine force. Space wolves suffer from slow recruitment and loss of their successor chapter, Black Templars have one of the highest casualty count etc...

This is how inconsistant the GW fluff is.
Load of Space Marines rebelled against the Imperium ages ago so they limitted their power by imposing a limit on how many men they can have.
Unless the chapter is badass and cool in which case they can be as strong as they like, apparently.

Is it really an inconsistency in the fluff? The very, very few actual instances are all explained and justified in-universe - though opinions will inevitably vary as to how plausibly this has been done.

Panopticon wrote:Depends on the chapter, the Space Wolves probably wouldn't care for example, but the Ultramarines might frown at it. Mind you it would probably end there, even the most militantly Codex chapter isn't going to declare war against a more easygoing one without a much better reason than that.

didnt the red scorpions declare war on a chapter after they borrowed some of their tanks, put camo on them, and then returned them to the scorpions in that state. this was heresy, as the original paintscheme was dictated by the codex astartes. scorpions retaliated against this "affront" by declaring war against them, and nuking their entire army. it took an inquisitor to bring the war to a stop. i remember reading about the scuffle, but not the spcifics of the chapters involved.

IMO, if you're willing to declare war on your allies for failing to remove camoflage from a codex-approved paint scheme, i think having more than 1000 marines is undoubtedly enough reason to have a go at them.

Well, as I understand it the more divergent a chapter is from the Codex Astartes the more closely scrutinized it is by the Inquisition. The Codex Astartes is there in part to prevent a Chapter from gaining too much power and being able to repeat what happened in the Horus Heresy. That being said, many chapters, even those considered "Codex Chapters" have their own minor modifications to the codex structure. The Salamanders for example have 6 companies of 120 marines plus a small scout company, instead of the usual 10 of 100.

Deadnight wrote:

Panopticon wrote:Depends on the chapter, the Space Wolves probably wouldn't care for example, but the Ultramarines might frown at it. Mind you it would probably end there, even the most militantly Codex chapter isn't going to declare war against a more easygoing one without a much better reason than that.

didnt the red scorpions declare war on a chapter after they borrowed some of their tanks, put camo on them, and then returned them to the scorpions in that state. this was heresy, as the original paintscheme was dictated by the codex astartes. scorpions retaliated against this "affront" by declaring war against them, and nuking their entire army. it took an inquisitor to bring the war to a stop. i remember reading about the scuffle, but not the spcifics of the chapters involved.

IMO, if you're willing to declare war on your allies for failing to remove camoflage from a codex-approved paint scheme, i think having more than 1000 marines is undoubtedly enough reason to have a go at them.

Except you will notice that the OP mentioned not going over 1000 marines, but instead having more companies made up of smaller numbers of Marines, which shouldn't anger anyone.

I am unfamiliar with the event you describe, but it sounds like there is either more to the story than we are told, or the Red Scorpions are kinda huge douchewaffles. Though your point is made that there are chapters out there that might take a more violent offense to this than one might think.

Joey wrote:This is how inconsistant the GW fluff is.
Load of Space Marines rebelled against the Imperium ages ago so they limitted their power by imposing a limit on how many men they can have.
Unless the chapter is badass and cool in which case they can be as strong as they like, apparently.

It's actually all very consistent in the fluff. The Black Templars only "get away with it" because there's no regulatory body that can routinely keep track of them and their numbers. But it's been suggested many times that they are constantly under suspicion by the Inquisition because of their size. It's just difficult to "catch them". The Codex Astartes' organizational tenets are controlled by peer review and self regulation for the most part. GW has made allowances for Chapters that have disobeyed those dictates, but usually marks how they are an anomaly, not the rule. The galaxy is a big place, and nobody is taking routine census numbers on the chapters. That's how the Astral Claws were able to hide their growing numbers for a while.

As to the OP, the roughly 1000 cap is the only hard set number. There is nothing that forces the chapters to do 10x100. It's probably just the fact that the formula has been so successful, for so long, that most chapters just figure that's the best way to do it.

The Exorcists have two extra scout companies, meaning they have 12 companies, but is is due to the high death rate from their initiation rituals.

There is some question though about if there really are only 1000 marines per chapter, becasue if it is 10 companies of 100 Marines, what about the members of the Librarium, Chaplains, Chapter commanders, tank crews, ect?

There's also the Blood Ravens, who seem to have a curiously oversized honor guard, effectively acting as a second "1st company".

Basically, the Codex Astartes states that SM chapters should only have 10 companies of 100 warriors each. Whether Guilliman meant it as a golden rule or simply a guiding tenet is debatable. But in 40K, codex chapters (and they're the majority of SM chapters) view this part of the codex almost as a divine law. Hence, crossing the 1000 SM limit is considered by some SM chapters as heresy.

The Inquisition doesn't care much about Guilliman's writings except that they view suspiciously any chapter becoming too powerful for their own good. As such, they keep a close eye on any chapter gathering more than 1000 marines. As such, they are almost allergic to SW or BT. But the first are simply too fierce and independent to fear the Inquisition, while the latter are spread all over the galaxy in numerous crusade forces (making an account of their strength is thus impossible).

Even then, the galaxy is simply too big, and SM chapters too powerful and influential, for the Inquisition to effectively monitor all of them. That's why the Astral Claws kept their increasing numbers a secret to everyone in the galaxy until the Badab War. And even then, it was only by chance that the Inquisition realized Huron had thousands of SM under his command. If the Administratum world of Sagan hadn't come into conflict with Badab and hadn't sparkled the secession, Huron could have kept his plans secret for many more decades.

The Black Templars are the only Chapter that come to mind that really break the rule of 1,000 fully fledged Astartes at one time. Maybe a diehard BT fan can give us a guesstimation of their numbers?

Somewhere around 6000 I believe.

The Mad Tanker wrote:There is some question though about if there really are only 1000 marines per chapter, becasue if it is 10 companies of 100 Marines, what about the members of the Librarium, Chaplains, Chapter commanders, tank crews, ect?

It's a point of contention, but it seems that the 1000 is a line strength, not a total strength. I did the math one time and it takes over 400 Marines to crew all the non-bike/landspeeder vehicles listed in the 3rd Edition Codex Space Marines as being attributed to the Ultramarines. So, with chaplains, HQ elements (command squads), apothecaries, librarians, techmarines, etc, it's probably more realistic to believe the actual total Space Marine manpower of a chapter is closer to 1500-1600. But 1000 infantry Marines.

As a note about companies, the Astral Claws went to great lengths to hide the fact that they were well over 10 companies, though this probably had more to do with them having well over 10 companies' worth of marines, too.

Space Wolves are probably the best example of a non-codex chapter w/ a different number of (great) companies, which puts them marginally but not hugely above the normal 1k

I thought space puppies were in the 2k-3k range?

The Space Puppies have 12 Great companies of roughly the same size as a normal company, possably slightly larger.

So they have something in the range of 1200-1500 range of marines in the line companies. This doesn't include, just like the Codex Astertes organization doesn't include, any marines in the Armory, Apothecarion, Librarium, or Reclusium.

This assumes the chapter is at full strength with no losses.

Grey Templar wrote:This doesn't include, just like the Codex Astertes organization doesn't include, any marines in the Armory, Apothecarion, Librarium, or Reclusium.

Is it possible that the wording actually did include them? Assuming that the wording really was "1.000 Marines", which I believe to have read in some Codex way back. We may well have a case of even Codex-loyal Chapters "stretching" the rules a bit, adhering to the letter of the law (by twisting its meaning) but not the spirit - a little like the Ecclesiarchy with its Decree Passive and the Frateris Militia / SoB. I would say it is quite possible that, over the millennia, many Chapter Masters may have "re-interpreted" sections of the Codex to be more convenient or because they felt it was necessary to preserve their Chapter's ability to defend the Imperium against an ever-increasing threat. Kind of like an arms race where everyone dances back and forth between mutually agreed limits whilst simultaneously "sounding" what they can get away with before being called a cheater.

English Assassin wrote:Is it really an inconsistency in the fluff? The very, very few actual instances are all explained and justified in-universe - though opinions will inevitably vary as to how plausibly this has been done.

Well, when you look at some fan favorites such as the SW... - let's just say they are a very special case, as Joey already hinted at. At least I cannot come up with a good reason for how the Wolves managed to resist an entire Segmentum worth of Imperial Navy when all other fluff says that no Chapter is supposed to be able to challenge it even in a one-on-one. And I usually enjoy looking for explanations (read: excuses) for why something would be as GW wrote it. And this is by far not the only occurrence that has some people scratching heads, though it all hinges on one's personal perspective and interpretation, of course.

The Black Templars have 3000 to around 6000 Astartes. And not only that but Exorcists have 3 extra companies.
Crimson fists for a while had 122 Veterans in their first company.

The Storm Wardens also maintain an entire two companies in stasis.

Grey Templar wrote:The Space Puppies have 12 Great companies of roughly the same size as a normal company, possably slightly larger.

So they have something in the range of 1200-1500 range of marines in the line companies. This doesn't include, just like the Codex Astertes organization doesn't include, any marines in the Armory, Apothecarion, Librarium, or Reclusium.

This assumes the chapter is at full strength with no losses.

A great company tends to be at least 50 marines or so larger than a regular company though often less formally organised.

The Epic Chaosdude!!! wrote:Some chapter like Space Wolves do have more than 10 companies, but hardly never exceed the 1000 marine force. Space wolves suffer from slow recruitment and loss of their successor chapter, Black Templars have one of the highest casualty count etc...

Never heard of SW sudffering from slow recruitment. The loss of their successor chapter probably wasn't much of a blow. They were still Legion sized at the time (Although with very depleted numbers from full strength) minus give or take a few hundred Marines. Also that loss was several thousand years ago...

An Iron Hands successor might also be a place to look. They run more clans instead of companies though I can't find anything off hand as to their sizes.

Does anyone know the size of the Black Templars, as im sure that they have more than 10 companies ( Crusades or Whatever )
I know their numbers are always up and down as they're always declaring war against some one

According to most sources they number in the 5000-6000 members. I personally love that them for that, so so much.

Dorn: *sigh* I guess I have no choice but to accept Girlymans codex.. Hey Sigismund! Come in here, I have something I would like you to take care off. Would you like to help me create a thorn in the side of rowboat for the rest of his life? trololol

Thats quite a remarkable figure...that many...really?

They must be one of the largest if not The largest chapter in the Imperium