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81Northman wrote:Thats quite a remarkable figure...that many...really?

They must be one of the largest if not The largest chapter in the Imperium

They are.
However due to the fact they are spread out across the Imperium they are effectively not 5-6 times as large since they have no real way of co-ordinating all of their forces.

The salamanders have only seven companies, each has 120 men, except for 7th company, which carries about 50-60 scouts. They follow the codex, but they tie in influences and teachings of Nocturne's Promethium cult. (I think they should just make a codex for each first founding chapter, other than renegades...)

Lynata wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:This doesn't include, just like the Codex Astertes organization doesn't include, any marines in the Armory, Apothecarion, Librarium, or Reclusium.

Is it possible that the wording actually did include them? Assuming that the wording really was "1.000 Marines", which I believe to have read in some Codex way back. We may well have a case of even Codex-loyal Chapters "stretching" the rules a bit, adhering to the letter of the law (by twisting its meaning) but not the spirit - a little like the Ecclesiarchy with its Decree Passive and the Frateris Militia / SoB. I would say it is quite possible that, over the millennia, many Chapter Masters may have "re-interpreted" sections of the Codex to be more convenient or because they felt it was necessary to preserve their Chapter's ability to defend the Imperium against an ever-increasing threat. Kind of like an arms race where everyone dances back and forth between mutually agreed limits whilst simultaneously "sounding" what they can get away with before being called a cheater.

Well, according to the Astartes sanctioned organization layout, it requires more then 1000 marines.

5 line companies. 6 Tac squads, 2 assault squads, 2 devestator squads, command squad and captain. that is 106 marines at full strength. so 530 marines.

1st company. 10 ten man squads, command squad, and captain that can be either Sternguard, Vanguard, or Terminator squads. another 106 marines

3 reserve companies of another 106 marines each. 318 more.

10th company. Captain and 10 sergeants are full marines. Initiates arn't included. 11 more.


This doesn't include the Librarium(3-8 librarians of varying ranks) Reclusium(10ish Chaplains) Chapter Fleet, or the Armory. The Armory and Fleet are the issue here. The chapter needs crew for all their vehicles and ships. Individual squads might drive their own transports, but what about Landraiders, Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Thunderhawks, Chapter Fleet boarding parties...

81Northman wrote:Thats quite a remarkable figure...that many...really?

They must be one of the largest if not The largest chapter in the Imperium

No tactics, no strategy, atrocious casualties. That's probably why nobody has bothered to try and stop them, lol. Black Templars are like Doritos. Crunch all you want, we'll make more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:This doesn't include, just like the Codex Astertes organization doesn't include, any marines in the Armory, Apothecarion, Librarium, or Reclusium.

Is it possible that the wording actually did include them? Assuming that the wording really was "1.000 Marines", which I believe to have read in some Codex way back. We may well have a case of even Codex-loyal Chapters "stretching" the rules a bit, adhering to the letter of the law (by twisting its meaning) but not the spirit - a little like the Ecclesiarchy with its Decree Passive and the Frateris Militia / SoB. I would say it is quite possible that, over the millennia, many Chapter Masters may have "re-interpreted" sections of the Codex to be more convenient or because they felt it was necessary to preserve their Chapter's ability to defend the Imperium against an ever-increasing threat. Kind of like an arms race where everyone dances back and forth between mutually agreed limits whilst simultaneously "sounding" what they can get away with before being called a cheater.

Well, according to the Astartes sanctioned organization layout, it requires more then 1000 marines.

The exact wording has been "a nominal 1000" (C:U) "approximately 1000" (IA1) or "basic fighting strength of 1000" (C:SM5). And it really only seems to refer to the line strength of the companies (10x100), but since the Scout Company fluctuates in size, we know the 1000 is a rough estimate. Every company has a headquarters element (which can actually be more than just the 6 Marines of the command squad), and the Chapter Master has his headquarters element too. Then there's the Librarium, etc.

There just no realistic way that a Space Marine chapter can function on a hard cap 1000 total warriors. Some people will argue it until their faces turn blue, but it takes well over 400 Marines just to crew all of the non-bike, non-landspeeder vehicles listed in the Codex:Space Marines as belonging to the Ultramarines. There's just no way that the Ultramarines routinely (essentially permanently) use all four of their Reserve companies to crew tanks and fliers. The descriptions of the Reserve companies are pretty specific, and nowhere in them is the suggestion that they are on more or less constant loan to the Armory, lol. Plus, the description in the 3rd Edition C:SM was very specific about the listed vehicles including their crews, whereas we are given specific listings that a company's land speeders are crewed by its own Marines. Hopefully one day GW gives us players an answer on the manpower of the Armory, and where vehicle crews come from, but for now there are two camps. The camp that takes the route that the vehicles are crewed by Marines assigned to the Armory and as such the "around 1000" terminology refers only to the infantry strength of the Chapter, and players who believe that the Chapter strips 40+% of its manpower to crew its vehicles.

Grey Templar wrote:Well, according to the Astartes sanctioned organization layout, it requires more then 1000 marines.

And that layout really is part of the Codex Astartes, and not just a contemporary interpretation of some Chapter? I wasn't aware that GW actually printed that, I've only ever seen the Ultramarine organization chart.

Alright then, I thought the Codex would only dictate the number of warriors. Maybe also that there's got to be 10 companies and each squad of infantry has to be 10 guys strong. Basically, 10x10x10=1.000, as naive as that sounds. Obviously, in such a case any vehicles and their crew would then have to be accounted for as "squads" as well (example: 5 Predators = 1 squad out of a company's 10). Needless to say, this would lower a Marine Chapter's fighting strength quite a bit, which is why twisting the wording of the law would become so deliciously tempting.

What other parts of the original Codex Astartes has the studio released, by the way, and where could they be found?

Well, the Ultramarines will follow the Codex to the letter so their organization layout will be what the Codex sanctions.

Grey Templar wrote:Well, the Ultramarines will follow the Codex to the letter so their organization layout will be what the Codex sanctions.

Ah, so then it is not 100% sure that this really is the Codex layout.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that the Ultramarines are the most Codex-adhering Chapter there is, but when we've never seen the original text this still leaves some room for speculation. A lot can change over the course of several millennia, even for the Ultras.

Well, it's either this or simply that GW writers have indeed been a bit sloppy again when it comes to numbers. Wouldn't be the first time.

I remember reading a story where an official whose job it is to ask who and what is aboard a ship when it leaves the warp asks a Templar cruiser when it pops out of the warp how many marines and he has about and he responds with a number around 700 and the official says something along the lines of "so most of your chapter?" the black templar pretty much says "uh, sure". And, later on that offical is talking to another of his ilk, when the same story is repeated the other official who says another similar number. It ends with them scratching their heads in confusion haha.


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But, I don't see any reason that a person cannot design a Chapter that fields more than the norm as long as they create a good enough back story to support it. Heck, even a normal chapter has thousands and thousands of serfs and a number of other support staff, so why not just get rid of the support personell and just make more marines

Thats basically the BTs dirty little secret.

The Space Wolves on the other hand are quite happy to give the middle finger to anyone who talks to the about the codex. They take the little pocket codices the Ultramarines hand out and use them as toilet paper.

Lynata wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Well, the Ultramarines will follow the Codex to the letter so their organization layout will be what the Codex sanctions.

Ah, so then it is not 100% sure that this really is the Codex layout.

Almost nothing about the Codex is certain, as it typically only gets talked about indirectly.

I think that most Chapters have deviated away from the Codex in some way.

Probaley the only legion that doesn't is the Ultramarines themselves and thats only because their Primarch wrote the dammed thing.

Anyone who does not follow the Codex in the Ultramarines no matter how small the deviation is in deep trouble indeed.

An example of an Ultramarine being punished for this is Captain Uriel Ventris of the 4th Company

Not wanting to turn this into a Codex debate, I think that given the circumstances Chapters see the the Codex as 'Guidelines' and in the loosest terms possible do what they want within reason

This is probaley why some Chapters have more than 10 companies.

81Northman wrote:I think that most Chapters have deviated away from the Codex in some way.

Probaley the only legion that doesn't is the Ultramarines themselves and thats only because their Primarch wrote the dammed thing.

Anyone who does not follow the Codex in the Ultramarines no matter how small the deviation is in deep trouble indeed.

An example of an Ultramarine being punished for this is Captain Uriel Ventris of the 4th Company

Not wanting to turn this into a Codex debate, I think that given the circumstances Chapters see the the Codex as 'Guidelines' and in the loosest terms possible do what they want within reason

This is probaley why some Chapters have more than 10 companies.

Most chapters follow the codex but most of them are also willing to abandon it if needs be...

yup, its not like its a requirement for Marine Chapters to follow it(This isn't sarcasim, the codex is simply a reccomendation. nothing enforces its use)