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Thinking about making one and just wanted to float a few general ideas.

Faith:
All faith rolls are decided by a leadership check. However, this faith leadership is an army wide value with a base leadership of 5.

Some units are considered faithful and add +1 to their leadership total and confer this to friendly units within 12'' that are taking a faith test.
Faith points would be slightly rarer than in witch hunters, a seraphim squad would generate only one point with or without a superior.

So, a sister of battle squad wants to take a faith test. This would normally be 5. However, checking the radius from the unit it is near a friendly seraphim squad and has canoness inside the squad. This gives them a +2 LD bonus, so they have LD8. If the canoness wants to make her faith check, she gains +1 simply for being a canoness and is also in range of the Seraphim; so she would also have LD8 for making a faith check.


Some units would have there own faith powers with a few being drawn from a universal army wide pool (possibly relentless)

Whenever you need to activate a faith power, either in reaction to the enemy player or in your own turn it can carry on into the subsequent turn ie hand of the emperor. You can do this for any unit and can only have one active at a time. An exception to this is if an independent character joins a squad then they technically 'share' there faith so can have two different powers at once. You cannot 'stack' the effects of the same power.

USR
Stubborn

New units/changes

Along the lines of an infiltrator/skirmisher unit. Think sisters who specialise in killing witchs and heretics silently and from the shadows.

Veiled Sisters (troops)
one sister superior and four veiled sisters for 80pts, and may purchase another five sisters for +14pts

Ws3 bs4 s3 t3 w1 i3 a1 ld8 sv4+

‘Stake bolter’, carapace armour and frag grenades.

Stake pattern bolter
Range 24’’ str4 ap- rapid fire enemy take a -1 on their inv saves

USR

Infiltrate

Act of Faith
Emperors Shadow
Veiled Sisters gain stealth USR and a 5+ save if in the open.

New tank for blowing up other tanks


Mounted onto a unique multi wheeled chassis, this heavy vehicle’s large barrelled weapon is actually a type of bolt weapon meant for destroying tanks at long range. This tank destroyer is an effective addition to the Sisters armoury. The bolt works piercing the armour with an initial charge after using kinetic power to crack a hole in the armour, the crew is then killed either by a secondary explosion or in typical soriatus fashion by incendiary shells that incinerate the crew inside their own tank.

Sepulchre tank 14 12 11 bs4 costs 190pts (considering a hammerhead with rail and burst cannons is 150pts)

Emperor Class Boltgun-range 72’’ str10 ap2 against vehicles does +2d6 armour penetration.

Front mounted dual heavy bolters or heavy flamers.

Totalwar1402 wrote:To give an example an army with St Celestine (3 points), a Canoness (2pts) and two squads of seraphim (two points) would give a leadership value of seven for all faith checks. General squad size would be ten to twenty for most units.

So at small points values, faith is effectively impossible to use? (500 pts or so, i.e. Canoness, 2 Squads is 4 Faith) Rolling under 4 on two dice is unlikely.

Are there faith points, or can you just use as many faith powers as you want as long as you pass the faith leadership checks?

Sepulchre tank 14 12 11 bs4 costs 190pts (considering a hammerhead with rail and burst cannons is 150pts)

Emperor Class Boltgun-range 72’’ str10 ap2 against vehicles does +2d6 armour penetration.

Front mounted dual heavy bolters or heavy flamers.

Wouldn't it make more sense to use the stats for a Vulcan Megabolter or whatever from apoc?




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Oh and good luck, these threads can get dicey.

pretre wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:To give an example an army with St Celestine (3 points), a Canoness (2pts) and two squads of seraphim (two points) would give a leadership value of seven for all faith checks. General squad size would be ten to twenty for most units.

So at small points values, faith is effectively impossible to use? (500 pts or so, i.e. Canoness, 2 Squads is 4 Faith) Rolling under 4 on two dice is unlikely.

Are there faith points, or can you just use as many faith powers as you want as long as you pass the faith leadership checks?

Sepulchre tank 14 12 11 bs4 costs 190pts (considering a hammerhead with rail and burst cannons is 150pts)

Emperor Class Boltgun-range 72’’ str10 ap2 against vehicles does +2d6 armour penetration.

Front mounted dual heavy bolters or heavy flamers.

Wouldn't it make more sense to use the stats for a Vulcan Megabolter or whatever from apoc?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and good luck, these threads can get dicey.

Some of the faith powers would be pretty powerful, so increasing their rarity in a kill point game would be required. Besides most people play 1000-1500 so far as Iam aware. It would make faith not so prevalent at the skirmish level but near universal at apocalyse level where you're playing for fun anyway.

You would get one roll per turn unless you had an independent character in the squad; because you are technically roling for the IC and not the squad would share the point. So, you really want relentless on a retinue of celestians and they fail. If they were with a canoness, you could make the roll again but the canoness would use up her chance to make a roll. You would then have to wait until next turn to make another roll for each unit.

So technically, yes most units only get one faith roll per turn. Although that might be altered by re-rolls from living saints and such.

A vulcan megabolter would be pretty over-powered, even if it were a very short range version. Also its just one barrel using special ammunition to propell it at a long range and pierce the armour. A mega bolter just spits thousands of them out and simply pulverises the target by wait of fire.

So let's go with that Celestian squad (no IC). If I want say an Invulnerable save from one act and +1S from another, I could not do that under your proposal, since I can only activate one power per turn, right?


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What are the stats on a Vulcan Megabolter anyways?

pretre wrote:So let's go with that Celestian squad (no IC). If I want say an Invulnerable save from one act and +1S from another, I could not do that under your proposal, since I can only activate one power per turn, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What are the stats on a Vulcan Megabolter anyways?

Yes, and Celestian squads would not have access to either of those powers. The reintue would still have hand of the Emperor since it has to do close combat duty with the canoness but basic celestian squads would be the ultimate firefight unit. They would have a simple choice, either use relentless and fire with your bolter; or if you're close enough, they would get a power capable of turning all their guns into (no exceptions) flamers and flamers into heavy flamers. Which, being assault weapons mitigates the need to roll for relentless . Which is why such a power would need to be removed from small scale encounters. Haven't thought of points yet. 18-20pts per model

Celestians

Ws4 bs4 s3 t3 w1 i4 a1 ld9 sv3+
Bolter with attached sarissa, frag and krak grenades, fearless and counter attack USR,
Act of faith
Burn them all!
All celestians weapons sprout holy fire and breath golden flame upon the enemy.
If successful , all celestians may fire their weapons as flamers at str4 ap5, whilst flamers count as heavy flamers for the purpose of str and ap. A player may not forgo this ability for certain models ie meltaguns.



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Shameless adaption from soulstorm I know


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So, units would still have specific powers save for two army wide ones; relentless and one that lets them rally under half strength.

I would tweak the faith system a bit; you do want it to be viable at all point levels, but also not overpowering at higher levels. In a 2000 point game, for instance, under this system you would basically always get to use a Faith power whenever you wanted, since you'd be rolling against Ld. 10.

What about this; to use a faith power, the unit must roll 7 or higher. However, they add one to the roll for each of the following units within 24 inches; (list of especially-faithful or inspiring units, probably mostly Elites choices), and add two for each of the following units within 24"; (list of SUPER-faithful/inspiring units, basically special characters and HQ choices).

Then you set minimum squad size of practically all units to 10, which means that a sisters army can't play the MSU game to have a ton of units all buffing each other at once, and you have a fairly balanced system that gives you good odds if you've taken a Faith-centric army and only decent odds if you haven't.

I have no idea, but its something like heavy twenty str7 ap2 from a vague memory of fighting them.

Cool idea for the celestians.

BeRzErKeR wrote:I would tweak the faith system a bit; you do want it to be viable at all point levels, but also not overpowering at higher levels. In a 2000 point game, for instance, under this system you would basically always get to use a Faith power whenever you wanted, since you'd be rolling against Ld. 10.

What about this; to use a faith power, the unit must roll 7 or higher. However, they add one to the roll for each of the following units within 24 inches; (list of especially-faithful or inspiring units, probably mostly Elites choices), and add two for each of the following units within 24"; (list of SUPER-faithful/inspiring units, basically special characters and HQ choices).

Then you set minimum squad size of practically all units to 10, which means that a sisters army can't play the MSU game to have a ton of units all buffing each other at once, and you have a fairly balanced system that gives you good odds if you've taken a Faith-centric army and only decent odds if you haven't.

It would be finicky to measure the radius of every single unit if they all wanted to use it. An Imperial guard army gets away with it because theres a limited number of orders and tyranids because you're measuring from a limited number of synapse creatures not each unit that can be affected.

I could try it so you can only carry the faith roll to the same level as the units leadership check. So a basic sisters squad would still only be able to make a faith roll of 8 even if its army roll was 10; a living saint could.

Totalwar1402 wrote:

It would be finicky to measure the raius of every single unit if they all wanted to use it.

I could try it so you can only carry the faith roll to the same level as the units leadership check. So a basic sisters squad would still only be able to make a faith roll of 8 even if its army roll was 10; a living saint could.

It might be a little finicky, but it wouldn't be really bad, Most of them you could eyeball; only on unclear cases would you have to measure.

Your idea of a cap works pretty well, too.

Perhaps, I usually just eyeball for my synapse creatures if I'am playing tyranids. It would also emphasise the phalanx nature.

Although, a 24'' radius would cover most of the board you know, certainly a regular deployment zone.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Perhaps, I usually just eyeball for my synapse creatures if I'am playing tyranids. It would also emphasise the phalanx nature.

Although, a 24'' radius would cover most of the board you know, certainly a regular deployment zone.

You could cut it down, if you liked. I didn't want it to be too big a limitation; if it was 12", with 10-model units as a minimum, you might get pretty crowded This is a circle, remember, within which you want to fit multiple units in order to gain stacked benefits. A single squad of Celestians, for instance, would only boost the test from Ld 7 to Ld 8, which isn't really all that valuable

. Perhaps 18"? That would encourage running units together while not limiting deployment TOO much.

The stake bolter needs to be redone.
Assault 2 Bolters that Ignore invun saves?

At best, it should be a rending bolter ( 24", rapid fire, rending).

Or...possibly better, have it reduce invun saves by 1.
And prolly calling it a Stake Pattern bolter would be fluffier?

Or just make it use the stake bolter stats that are in the newest codex.

Ovion wrote:The stake bolter needs to be redone.
Assault 2 Bolters that Ignore invun saves?

At best, it should be a rending bolter ( 24", rapid fire, rending).

Or...possibly better, have it reduce invun saves by 1.
And prolly calling it a Stake Pattern bolter would be fluffier?

The Stake Pattern Bolter is basically a 'bolter' thats shaped like a crossbow and shoots rocket propelled stakes. These silver stakes were meant to be insciribed with holy oils and inscriptions n such. When they hit, they turn to motlen mercury and melt the target from inside. So Iam not sure what kind of roll that would require. Other units would have access to rending, inv saves seemed appropriate since thats the primary defence of daemons. Is there any precedent for reducing inv saves by one? I know that there is a power which forces you to re-roll succesful inv saves; would that be more suitable?

As for the assault weapons, i myself wasn't sure about making a sniper unit, but since all SOB get the option of becoming relentless I suppose that wouldn't be too bad. If you're in cover you don't need to roll for it so theres no conflict there. So rapid fire 1 would seem okay.


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pretre wrote:Or just make it use the stake bolter stats that are in the newest codex.

Oh, its an actual weapon! Ha, I didn't realise that thing the Inquisitors carried was actually called a stake bolter lol. What are its stats in the pdf like?


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BeRzErKeR wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:Perhaps, I usually just eyeball for my synapse creatures if I'am playing tyranids. It would also emphasise the phalanx nature.

Although, a 24'' radius would cover most of the board you know, certainly a regular deployment zone.

You could cut it down, if you liked. I didn't want it to be too big a limitation; if it was 12", with 10-model units as a minimum, you might get pretty crowded This is a circle, remember, within which you want to fit multiple units in order to gain stacked benefits. A single squad of Celestians, for instance, would only boost the test from Ld 7 to Ld 8, which isn't really all that valuable

. Perhaps 18"? That would encourage running units together while not limiting deployment TOO much.

Be honest I kinda prefer my idea with the cap to keep things in check. Although i do like the idea of impressing the need to deploy your army in a block-like phalanx; very fluffy. My experience with nids is that you would be amased how easy it is to get units inside that radius; I almost never have to roll for it. If multiple untis in the radius confer bonuses then it would be quite easy to get that seven into a ten if you measure from the radius (which is measured from the models furthest from the center and then projected outwards, not the middle like a regular circle). When you're dealing with large squads and not relatively small MC as with nids you would make it far easier to get most units under the board. Maybe if the basic leadership was five.

Also it would be unclear how to link martyrdom into the system. It would be fun if when a unit is wiped out its 'spirit' counts as everywhere for the pruposes of rolling until by the end of the game the SOB are just going Kratos on everything.

There doesn't really need to be a precedent for things imo, so long as it isn't overpowered or abusable.

I mean what's the point of creating if you simply recycle the same old stuff :p

I can't think of one that reduces, though there's stuff that increases, that said, Tau markerlights modify cover saves, so modifying invun saves isn't a huge stretch.

And while negatimg a daemons invun makes sense, ignoring all doesn't, as the bow thing won't ignore forcefields etc.

Ovion wrote:There doesn't really need to be a precedent for things imo, so long as it isn't overpowered or abusable.

I mean what's the point of creating if you simply recycle the same old stuff :p

I can't think of one that reduces, though there's stuff that increases, that said, Tau markerlights modify cover saves, so modifying invun saves isn't a huge stretch.

And while negatimg a daemons invun makes sense, ignoring all doesn't, as the bow thing won't ignore forcefields etc.

Forgot about markerlights. If it was army specific then it would make the unit very useful vs daemons/chaos n bad vs others. -1 inv probably seems best. Could possibly make them 'poisoned' weapons instead to represent things burning up from the inside.


Also, had a change of heart on the faith thing. Probably easier if the army faith leadership is set at 5, then you add +1 to the roll for every faithful unit within 12'' (including the units own bonus for being faithful). Most faithful units (Seraphim, Canoness etc) except for Celestine would add +1 so it shouldn't get out of hand. Ths would make it pretty easy to get a decent faith roll in a small game.