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Hi,

Does any feel that Res Orbs are really worth the points? In a competitive game does the extra 15% chance of success really make them worth 30 points?

I had two in my last list, but I felt that over all, the number of extra models I saved, I could have just bought an extra 4 Immortals for the cost.

It's 16.7% chance, but I get your point. From a purely percentage of points it will start reaping benefits on any unit worth 200 points or more. So, if you got a big block of Phaeroned Warriors I think it is an absolute must. Also, Traich Praetorians and Lychguard I think its an absolute must. Immortals, I wouldn't bring it on any unit smaller then 10, and even then I would only add it if you envision a need for the Lord anyway (like an aggressive VoidTek squad or something like that).

That's how I felt. In units of 20 warriors, the res orb seems pretty valuable. But, in a squad of ten or ten man squad of immortals, I dont really see the need. The buff / cost isn't staggering enough for me. I put lords, mss, warscythes in my two units of immortals because I know that they are going to be the first units to get assaulted.

I stopped using Res Orbs and started using large squads of Warriors back in 4th, and I don't see myself changing my strategy now. I've found ways to use them very effectively against SM which has always helped my place well in tournaments. I'm running a block of 20 Warriors, but I'm choosing to use other methods to keep them alive.

The Phaeron/20 Warrior block is by far the most viable use for an Orb, IMO. I don't see a very strong case for putting them anywhere else. Shadar is correct that they'll do well with Praets/Lychguard, but I don't think adding one point sink to another will make for a very viable unit.

It makes its points back if you expect to take casualties. For instance, I would run a res orb with a Destroyer lord who is deepstriking with a unit of twenty Flayed Ones. That's a quite unexpected and pretty resilient unit.

Oaka wrote:It makes its points back if you expect to take casualties. For instance, I would run a res orb with a Destroyer lord who is deepstriking with a unit of twenty Flayed Ones. That's a quite unexpected and pretty resilient unit.

That's fun times. I've played with the idea of that unit but something inside me irks combining different movement type troops, but of course the DLord could certainly split off from the FOs at anytime, and that gives him all sorts of soak wounds on the turn he DS's, so I could certainly see the potential.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Oaka wrote:It makes its points back if you expect to take casualties. For instance, I would run a res orb with a Destroyer lord who is deepstriking with a unit of twenty Flayed Ones. That's a quite unexpected and pretty resilient unit.

That's fun times. I've played with the idea of that unit but something inside me irks combining different movement type troops, but of course the DLord could certainly split off from the FOs at anytime, and that gives him all sorts of soak wounds on the turn he DS's, so I could certainly see the potential.

The only reason that keeps me from doing it every game is that he can't take a Royal Court.

One small thing to remember, Rez Orbs provide "compounding" benefits.

If that guy comes back on a 16.7% chance, then in the future he's still got a 16.7% better chance to come back again.

loreweaver wrote:One small thing to remember, Rez Orbs provide "compounding" benefits.

If that guy comes back on a 16.7% chance, then in the future he's still got a 16.7% better chance to come back again.

Very true, which also makes extrapolating the math when comparing just having 30 points worth more models a bit daunting.

I think they're also worth it in a unit like 10x lychguard... i mean 1 guy gets back up on a roll of a 4 and you made the points back.

And they help the lord too, so if you want to add one to lych guard for say... mindshackle scarabs and a warscythe, then the 16% also benefits him as well.

ShadarLogoth wrote:It's 16.7% chance, but I get your point. From a purely percentage of points it will start reaping benefits on any unit worth 200 points or more. So, if you got a big block of Phaeroned Warriors I think it is an absolute must. Also, Traich Praetorians and Lychguard I think its an absolute must. Immortals, I wouldn't bring it on any unit smaller then 10, and even then I would only add it if you envision a need for the Lord anyway (like an aggressive VoidTek squad or something like that).

This is pretty spot on, and exactly my feelings. The Orb really shines in expensive units.

Its good for expensive units or large units but otherwise don't bother.

I think your percentage point of view is a little skewed. You have to look at it from a casualty point of view. You go from losing 4 out of every 6 to 3 out of every 6 lost models. That's a 50% increase in survivors. I would gladly pay the 30 points to put it in any unit that can buy it. I would not, however, put a lord in a unit of 10 immortals just for an Orb. Death marks, big warrior or flayed one packs, and Lychguard seem worth the investment. I don't feel like destroyers are worth the orbs, or Tomb Blades...the units just seem too small to make it through the math.

Stygian, I'm not trying to pick on you... but that's the type of math that politicians tell the papers.

The orb affects only 16.7% of RP rolls. You certainly can take into account the cost of the models that you are bringing back, though.

I also agree... large units of troops, deathmarks with VOD, 10 man squads of Immortals with VOD, and lychguards, and a destroyer Lord w/Praetorians.

It all depends on your luck.

For assault purposes, the best res orb tactic to me seems to have imotekh and a res orb destroyer lord or overlord command barge. Then take 12-20 flayed ones. Find a way to get your destroyer/over lord safely across the field (wraiths, destroyers, tomb blades, turbo boost the command barge). Deep strike your flayed one blob, then when they come in Bloodswarm scarabs allows them to deep strike within 6" of a enemy unit you chose at the begining of the game(make sure its a useless unit you can kill later). Then have your lord join them and they are a tie up unit, as long as they dont get beaten down.

Res orbs are well worth it for shooting too, it is all down to how well you roll. The main issue is they are a resurrection item, not a defensive item in assault, so a lot of people just take mindshackle warscythe royal court lords.

Defeatmyarmy wrote:It all depends on your luck.

For assault purposes, the best res orb tactic to me seems to have imotekh and a res orb destroyer lord or overlord command barge. Then take 12-20 flayed ones. Find a way to get your destroyer/over lord safely across the field (wraiths, destroyers, tomb blades, turbo boost the command barge). Deep strike your flayed one blob, then when they come in Bloodswarm scarabs allows them to deep strike within 6" of a enemy unit you chose at the begining of the game(make sure its a useless unit you can kill later). Then have your lord join them and they are a tie up unit, as long as they dont get beaten down.

Res orbs are well worth it for shooting too, it is all down to how well you roll. The main issue is they are a resurrection item, not a defensive item in assault, so a lot of people just take mindshackle warscythe royal court lords.

FYI...you dont get to choose the unit that the bloodswarm scarabs affect. Its random unfortunately. Personally I wish we could buy Bloodswarms as a regular upgrade for overlords...I think GW would sell a few more FO boxes if you could! As far as getting your DLord safely across the field to your FO mob, the DLord is Jump Infantry and can therefore deep strike as well if you want.

I have yet to run any RezOrbs with my new necrons, the mind shackle scarabs though...freaking awesome. I am loathe to invest the points in massive warrior squads that get mopped up in CC (I seem to fight almost exclusively heavy CC armies) but I can see the uses of them paired up w a Phaeron. Im gonna have to try this DLord thing though, I have been looking for a way to get PW and RezOrbs in with my FOs (I run 20 every chance I get...the old models are that awesome!) and stumbled upon this thread.

Sorry I couldnt be of more help...I really just wanted make my opening point.

ZombieJoe wrote:Hi,

Does any feel that Res Orbs are really worth the points? In a competitive game does the extra 15% chance of success really make them worth 30 points?

I had two in my last list, but I felt that over all, the number of extra models I saved, I could have just bought an extra 4 Immortals for the cost.

I hardly ever take them. There are a few situations when they're useful however, specifically Tyrizan the Infinite with a squad of lychguard on a point. A lord with res orb in that unit makes it almost impossible to take that point. The other good place for it is in the 20 warrior footslog lists where a lord with orb really helps recover the staggering losses that a 20 rack of warriors takes as it moves into rapid fire range.

Outside of that, I've really never found myself going "damn I wish I had a res orb right now" That said, if you find yourself with points to spare and nothing of real import, it would be one of the next upgrades I go for though.

I don't play Necrons and not had the chance to play against them yet so don't beat me up for not invoking the power of maths but the idea of a scoring unit with a res orb, backed up by a ghost ark sounds really, really irritating and I know that I'd have to devote more resources than I'd like to make sure that unit was completely finished off.

Repeat that scenario two or three times across the table and suddenly you're tying up a large portion of my army making sure I'm doing something I don't really want to be doing.

ColdSadHungry wrote:I don't play Necrons and not had the chance to play against them yet so don't beat me up for not invoking the power of maths but the idea of a scoring unit with a res orb, backed up by a ghost ark sounds really, really irritating and I know that I'd have to devote more resources than I'd like to make sure that unit was completely finished off.

Repeat that scenario two or three times across the table and suddenly you're tying up a large portion of my army making sure I'm doing something I don't really want to be doing.

Yes, I'm always surprised to see how impervious to small arms fire they seem. Well, not impervious, but a real over extention of reasources, that most opponents don't seem to have been built around spending. Often if the required number of shots are going into the ark/phaeron/orb Blob you are saving your other junk from any hidden special weapons in that squad. Then again, this trick is a really weird prioritizations of your own resources, especially when you try to make it close combat proof and add another lord to it. It's going to look like 485 points for your untenable mess of a scoring unit that your opponents will try to pretend does not exist for as long as possible.

Thankfully that Ghost ark can also be filled with crypteks.

Of course I don't really like large point levels so my experience here is super limited.

Lucre wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:

Thankfully that Ghost ark can also be filled with crypteks.

I wish the ghost ark could hold more than 10, or could at least dedicate to/operate on immortals. Currently you have to field a small unit of 5-10 warriors to get a ghost ark, and the only way I feel comfortable doing that is putting 2 crypteks in it from 2 different royal courts. I don't like giving my enemy a free kill point target by pushing a unit that vulnerable out on the field so I can have a court ride around in the ark :(

Still, 5 Eldritch Lances/Oblivion staffs in a ghost ark would be really nice in this open topped sucker.

Stygian...
There's no rule that says you can't buy a ghost ark if you have more than 10 models in the unit... You can have a ghost ark tagging along behind your 20 strong warrior squad like a little puppy. (Actually, that'd be a bad tactic... put the ghost ark in front as mobile terrain for your warriors, maybe jump a royal court full of Destructeks inside the ark for some nice, long range at shooting.

You guys are over-valuing the Res Orb, I think. You do need to calculate the breakpoint for reanimated models, of course - which is going to be (hand-waving numbers) around two models, depending on type. That'll be some dozen rolls. So as soon as you've taken enough casualties to make a dozen reanimation rolls, the orb pays for itself in terms of model cost. More or less.

But you also have to factor in opportunity cost. Instead of the orb, you could've bought a couple more models. Or a tachyon arrow, mindshacke scarabs + 1model, etc. And we're giving up all the fire those models or special equipment could have provided in the turns leading up to taking a dozen wounds.

Basically, two warriors NOW is worth more than two warriors on turn 4, and so on.

it's also dangerous to assume we'll get a dozen reanimation rolls - and if we take a unit large enough to guarantee we will, we're giving up tactical flexibility.

I'm a huge believer in first turn effect - I'll take the Tachyon Arrow over the Orb in almost all situations, there'll be no shortage of high-value gunship targets if we're facing a skilled list-building opponent who knows he'll be facing Necrons.

Randall Turner wrote:You guys are over-valuing the Res Orb, I think. You do need to calculate the breakpoint for reanimated models, of course - which is going to be (hand-waving numbers) around two models, depending on type. That'll be some dozen rolls. So as soon as you've taken enough casualties to make a dozen reanimation rolls, the orb pays for itself in terms of model cost. More or less.

But you also have to factor in opportunity cost. Instead of the orb, you could've bought a couple more models. Or a tachyon arrow, mindshacke scarabs + 1model, etc. And we're giving up all the fire those models or special equipment could have provided in the turns leading up to taking a dozen wounds.

Basically, two warriors NOW is worth more than two warriors on turn 4, and so on.

it's also dangerous to assume we'll get a dozen reanimation rolls - and if we take a unit large enough to guarantee we will, we're giving up tactical flexibility.

I'm a huge believer in first turn effect - I'll take the Tachyon Arrow over the Orb in almost all situations, there'll be no shortage of high-value gunship targets if we're facing a skilled list-building opponent who knows he'll be facing Necrons.

I am really inclined to agree with you Randall. I'm still not sold on necron's particular brand of survivability and the way they split up/ juggle their utility. I am starting to think that a lot of necron lists will want to be an awful lot like tyranid lists, where units realize their power, or come into their own, when they are considered to be part of little teams that are not worth it without having provided some great help to each other through the match. A lot of these elements will find their use, or will declare their lack of usefulness in time.

What I think I'd say about the orb, is that, under certain circumstances, it'll just feel like a reasonable decision. There is a certain point level, and composition, where it will feel like you might as well have it.

I'm also pretty impressed with how frustrating a well equipped and backed up warrior blob is to kill. Baring ordnance and elite close combat units, the phaeron blob seems like a really good way to bait mistakes and put a lot of pressure mid field. It is a pretty versatile unit when you get to a certain critical mass, it just makes me really wish Nemesor Zandrek had a scythe or sword to lead them. Until rumored sixth edition and necron's get access to leadership buffs, this unit will still have some problems.

The orb is worth its points especially in units with more than 10 warriors. And what you should not forget is that a lord with the orb also benefits from it. If you can even come back when the whole unit has been killed it is really nice to have a 50% chance that the opponet will have to spend another round of shooting it.

Yes, it is not reliable, but when it happends it is extremely annoying. We had a game here where a chaos player was majorly pissed off by a Necron lord which came back three rounds in a row.

That's a point. (ie, that Characters with Ever Living who have an orb will also benefit from it.) We're talking a lot of points there. Thanks, hadn't thought of that - might be enough for me to change my tactics.

At the end of the day, welp, if it's close enough to make a good argument either way then we should do whatever fits our flavor.

Randall Turner wrote:That's a point. (ie, that Characters with Ever Living who have an orb will also benefit from it.) We're talking a lot of points there. Thanks, hadn't thought of that - might be enough for me to change my tactics.

At the end of the day, welp, if it's close enough to make a good argument either way then we should do whatever fits our flavor.

Wait, who you calling a welp ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Randall Turner wrote:You guys are over-valuing the Res Orb, I think. You do need to calculate the breakpoint for reanimated models, of course - which is going to be (hand-waving numbers) around two models, depending on type. That'll be some dozen rolls. So as soon as you've taken enough casualties to make a dozen reanimation rolls, the orb pays for itself in terms of model cost. More or less.

But you also have to factor in opportunity cost. Instead of the orb, you could've bought a couple more models. Or a tachyon arrow, mindshacke scarabs + 1model, etc. And we're giving up all the fire those models or special equipment could have provided in the turns leading up to taking a dozen wounds.

Basically, two warriors NOW is worth more than two warriors on turn 4, and so on.

it's also dangerous to assume we'll get a dozen reanimation rolls - and if we take a unit large enough to guarantee we will, we're giving up tactical flexibility.

I'm a huge believer in first turn effect - I'll take the Tachyon Arrow over the Orb in almost all situations, there'll be no shortage of high-value gunship targets if we're facing a skilled list-building opponent who knows he'll be facing Necrons.

Sort of....except the Res Orb could be picking up a model the first turn when two warriors roll a 4 on RP. Also, It doesn't just pay dividends when a model rolls a 4 on RP, it pays dividends again when that model rolls another 4, having a diminishing yet continuous return of investment.

As previously has been stated it really depends on how big the blob is. If you have 20 warriors and an HQ and your not dropping a RO in there, your doing it wrong. How ever if you have MSUs with crypteks, not nearly as powerful. Generally speaking 200 points or larger and the RO is a sound investment.

Randall Turner wrote:You guys are over-valuing the Res Orb, I think. You do need to calculate the breakpoint for reanimated models, of course - which is going to be (hand-waving numbers) around two models, depending on type. That'll be some dozen rolls. So as soon as you've taken enough casualties to make a dozen reanimation rolls, the orb pays for itself in terms of model cost. More or less.

But you also have to factor in opportunity cost. Instead of the orb, you could've bought a couple more models. Or a tachyon arrow, mindshacke scarabs + 1model, etc. And we're giving up all the fire those models or special equipment could have provided in the turns leading up to taking a dozen wounds.

Basically, two warriors NOW is worth more than two warriors on turn 4, and so on.

it's also dangerous to assume we'll get a dozen reanimation rolls - and if we take a unit large enough to guarantee we will, we're giving up tactical flexibility.

I'm a huge believer in first turn effect - I'll take the Tachyon Arrow over the Orb in almost all situations, there'll be no shortage of high-value gunship targets if we're facing a skilled list-building opponent who knows he'll be facing Necrons.

Generally, I'd agree with you. Except for the Tachyon Arrow comparison. That thing is never worth the points.

azazel the cat wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:You guys are over-valuing the Res Orb, I think. You do need to calculate the breakpoint for reanimated models, of course - which is going to be (hand-waving numbers) around two models, depending on type. That'll be some dozen rolls. So as soon as you've taken enough casualties to make a dozen reanimation rolls, the orb pays for itself in terms of model cost. More or less.

But you also have to factor in opportunity cost. Instead of the orb, you could've bought a couple more models. Or a tachyon arrow, mindshacke scarabs + 1model, etc. And we're giving up all the fire those models or special equipment could have provided in the turns leading up to taking a dozen wounds.

Basically, two warriors NOW is worth more than two warriors on turn 4, and so on.

it's also dangerous to assume we'll get a dozen reanimation rolls - and if we take a unit large enough to guarantee we will, we're giving up tactical flexibility.

I'm a huge believer in first turn effect - I'll take the Tachyon Arrow over the Orb in almost all situations, there'll be no shortage of high-value gunship targets if we're facing a skilled list-building opponent who knows he'll be facing Necrons.

Generally, I'd agree with you. Except for the Tachyon Arrow comparison. That thing is never worth the points.

Well except when it kills a 250 point Land Raider the first turn. It might be seldom worth the points, or hardly worth the points, but the only way it is never worth the points is if the description reads "At the start of the game, do nothing. Grats you just waisted 30 points."



(And I'm generally not crazy about TA's myself unless I'm sticking it with a chrono, then I would say they will pay for themselves more often then not).