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I cant seem to find the answer to this.

Hag as BSB with Banner of Hag Graef in a unit of Exes.
Do they Strike first, still last or Init order?

Im sure someone said it was still last regardless but im not sure.

ASF and ASL cancel each other out, so init order.

Init order, expliitly covered in the BRB. P66

Cheers guys.
So its Init Order with Eternal Hatred.
Thats good for me.

The Hag strikes first.
Then the opponent's hero kills the hag at Init 6, causing the rest of the unit to lose ASF and the revert back to ASL, before they had a chance to swing.
The enemy's rank and file now now cuts into the T3 elves killing many.
Finally, the survivors swing (at ASL).

Because the Hag has such a glass jaw, I wouldn't bother with the banner. Far to easy to take the banner out.

12 more executioners is pretty much always a better buy for the points than the hag with the banner.

-Matt

Assuming the enemy hero goes at I6. Not all of them do.

Assuming he challenges, and you are foolish enough to accept.

Assuming the hero is in B2B and doesn't need to challenge.

More often the BSB is killed by rank and file after the Executioners swing. This limits it to a one-shot wonder most of the time. But if you know your opponent won't bother attacking the Hag in an attempt to make up CR, it might be worth a shot.

Vulcan wrote:Assuming the enemy hero goes at I6. Not all of them do.

Assuming he challenges, and you are foolish enough to accept.

Assuming the hero is in B2B and doesn't need to challenge.

More often the BSB is killed by rank and file after the Executioners swing. This limits it to a one-shot wonder most of the time. But if you know your opponent won't bother attacking the Hag in an attempt to make up CR, it might be worth a shot.

Heroes can target other heroes without being in a challenge.
Heroes can reposition themselves during the remaining moves phase as part of a normal move (as per the FAQ).
This lets heroes line up on the BSB, who can't reposition during a charge. Unit champ can accept a challenge to keep the hero free to swing on the hag.
Init 6 is high for heroes, but ASF is pretty common too.

Executioners will be re-rolling to hit the 1st round either way (hate), and if the BSB is going to die the first round (why you wouldn't target a T3 BSB with pretty much no defense is beyond me, she's worth at least 150 + 25 more for the standard).
Unless you can really wreck the enemy with that round of attacks, taking out models who are swinging back, it's very sub-optimal.

-Matt

A BSB is worth far, far more than their basic VP cost in terms of rerolls. I would alsways try to kill a BSB if I get the chance, and hag BSBs (non cauldron) are so damn easy to kil with RnF

Some great reasons not to take the BSB in a unit of Executioners.
I am now beginning to question if Executioners are worth the cost also.
I have this Dark Elf army and I am really struggling to get my head around an army list that is both Balanced, fun and hopefully a little competitive in some friendly 2k to 2.5k tournaments.
Its all so much easier with my Lizardmen. Slann, big unit of 40 warriors, 20 x TC a few Sallys and build from there.

Dark Elves used to be the top-dogs back in 7th. No Step-Up plus some seriously undercosted troops/magic items, and some stuff that just shouldn't have ever been a thing to begin with (inverted Ward saves, I'm looking at you). 8th sort of balanced things out, but it also just made certain units (Executioners and Black Guard) really hard to use, where Witch Elves and the rank-and-file Core see a lot more play.

Blackguard still have a good use, as they are good in small units able to hold their own, and for not many points.

Sadly every DE list seems to be Razorspam, cauldron BSB, bows and corsairs. Dull

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Heroes can reposition themselves during the remaining moves phase as part of a normal move (as per the FAQ).

Wow, wait... So you can:
Charge a unit with a hero in with your own hero-containing unit.
And then, after moving the charge, reposition your hero to target the opposing hero, without the opposing having a chance to move away?
This can't be true... Can it?

It isnt true. Make way only works if you are not in base contact iwth a fighting model.

Or, after 13hrs of 40k today on 3hrs sleep, i could be entirely mistaken....

Only during part of a normal move, not as part of a charge.
Let's say I'm playing vampire counts. On my turn, I move within charge range of the executioners, and reposition my ASF vampire to be lined up with the Death Hag.
On the dark elf turn, the dark elf player charges in.

The Vampire and Hag should be in base to base. If the hag challenges, the vampire accepts, more than likely killing her. If the champ challenges, my champ accepts, again leaving my vampire to kill her.


Models who are in contact with the enemy cannot be rearranged, this is a movement phase thing on the turn before the charge.

No, on the DE turn he places something in the way so that you have to charge it instead, with an overrun angle that takes the Vamp AWAY from the Hag.

But in all seriousness, you're quite right. The Hag BSB IS very vulnerable, and very expensive. Using her to give Executioners ASF is questionable. Most of the time you'll be better off with 15 extra bodies in the Executioner unit, and the Hag BSB a Cauldron instead. With 40 Executioners with extra attack blessing, you'll probably still be dropping 40 WS5 S6 Hatred Killing Blow attacks after the other guy swings, unless he's rocking something really hardcore like a Chosenstar.

Black Guard now work best in really small units, I've found. A single rank of them 2 wider than a Chosen unit will probably shave a rank off the Chosen before they die... assuming it's not a Chosenstar with a couple of charcters and/or the 3+ ward save. Even then, 5 in the flank will kill their points worth before dying. Against anything less (with the sole exception of ASF stuff), they will do damage all out of proportion to their numbers before they die.

I'll let you in on a little secret. If you field enough executioners, they are totally awesome.
Moderate sized chosen star (~24 chosen), even with the 3+ ward, they lose combat to an equal point value of executioners (around 48 executioners).
Chosen are supported by shrines, executioners pick up the 5+ ward and stubborn from the cauldron (along with the +1 Ld banner).

Chosen are a lot more durable against shooting, but dark elves have a lot better options for taking out enemy shooting (dark riders, shades, harpies, peg lord) and can draw fire away more effectively with the threat of hydra(s).


-Matt