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What are some tactics for Grey Knight Terminators? It seems like they are in a strange limbo between Strike Squads (half the price for a troop choice) and Pallys (15 more points for WS5 and 2 wounds).

Is there some part that Regular terminators shine at? Are they just really good objective holders? Give a 5 man squad a pyycannon, some hammers and Dare something to move them? Deep strike them in KP missions?

Something else?

Personally, I use them in DS, getting in CC with whatever enemies that do not have power weapons.

1 hammer and 1 incinerator per squad.

ALso you must consider their troop choice status, this saves you an automatic 275 points, as you arent spending it on Draigo. Whats cheaper 10 paladins and draigo? Or 10 Terminators and a librarian ( terminators and librarian get a nifty 3+ cover save if you take shrouding and put em in cover, as well as the libby being able to take a teleport homer)

So really the answer just comes around to what list you want to build, how many points you want to invest in x or y, and what you want your army to be capable of. Me personally, I will be taking a 12 model army to a 1500 point doubles tourny this saturday... if that tells you anything about how I like to play .... Dangerously bwahaha

I take 10 terminators fully kitted out including Thawn. He gives me another scoring unit that can contest the enemy objective since he is unkillable. Cover and shrouding mitigate any ap 2 weapons that hit the terminators and they are fearsome in close combat. They take the center of the board and control the flow of the game.

Well, if you take a regular grand master you can include a scoring unit of paladins, so you do not really need draigo.

Grey Knight temrinators are rather good. With GK it really depends upon your point cost as that greatly affects the HQ choise. :-)

As for the driago thing, it is also worth mentioning that you /could/ take croteze and fill up your troops with henchmen squads.
Sure your paladins wont be scoring but you can take a ton of fire support for them.

as for regular terminators, if you aren't taking a ton of them I lean towards paladins.

I take 10 terminators fully kitted out including Thawn. He gives me another scoring unit that can contest the enemy objective since he is unkillable. Cover and shrouding mitigate any ap 2 weapons that hit the terminators and they are fearsome in close combat. They take the center of the board and control the flow of the game.

That´s a pretty awful thing to use from a point of efficiency.
You pay around 770 points for one unit with HQ (11 models) that just stand there in the middle with a small arms reach of 24´?

Pyriel- wrote:

I take 10 terminators fully kitted out including Thawn. He gives me another scoring unit that can contest the enemy objective since he is unkillable. Cover and shrouding mitigate any ap 2 weapons that hit the terminators and they are fearsome in close combat. They take the center of the board and control the flow of the game.

That´s a pretty awful thing to use from a point of efficiency.
You pay around 770 points for one unit with HQ (11 models) that just stand there in the middle with a small arms reach of 24´?

No it's 570pts that take the center,or the cover near the center, and shoot 4 str 7 shots and 16 str 5 shots at things in 80% of the enemy deployment zone. Thawn is one of the first casualties and he heads off into the enemy deployment zone ASAP to cause more havoc.

The librarian is sitting in the Land Raider with some death cult assassins. I can usually snake the termies back to within 6" to get the benefit of shrouding. I do add Coteaz to the terminators most times (room in the land raider for him if I play against mind strike missiles) so I guess the cost is really 670pts, but I need to take him to get all the henchmen that make up the rest of the army and he keeps deep strikers away from the termies.

As long as there is some cover for them they become an unmoveable brick with a huge threat radius. Sure I can only shoot one thing at a time with them, but they act a a wide net to catch anything trying to get past and into my soft henchmen innards.

Regular termies are good if you wanted a particular cheaper inquisitor as your hq. Mostly you see pcannon malleus inquisitors with 30 gkt in 1500 point games.

Obviously other HQ choices lead towards different play styles. Coteaz bumps termies over for henchmen, crowe for purifiers, draigo for paladins. Even regular GMs make paladins or purifiers scoring, pushing out regular termies as a troop investment.

I've tried to come up with reasons why you'd take terminators and the only reasons I can think have already been stated - you don't have to spend points on an HQ to make them into troops and they allow you to take other HQs. They also save points compared to Paladins.

However, they don't have the 2 wounds or WS5 that paladins do and they don't let you take 4 psycannons per 10, only 2. Terminators also pay more for their psycannons than Paladins. Terminators don't have access to Holocaust either. Nor do they compare favourably to Purifiers. Except for a better armour save, they don't have Cleansing Flame and they cost a lot more. Purifiers also have access to 4 psycannons per 10 men and pay less for those 4 than Terminators pay for two. Purifiers cannot deep strike though, so Terminators do offer a bit more tactically.

Thawn is interesting because he effectively makes his unit mastery 2 until he dies for the first time but at 75 points, I'm sure you could find something better to spend your points on. If it wasn't so easy to negate normal armour saves then a terminator army might be viable but other than allowing you to meet your troops need without a named HQ, there are just better options. As far as I'm concerned, this is all theory though as I've not played either Terminators or Paladins in the new Codex.

I just think Paladins are better.

2 Psycannons vs. 4 cheaper Psycannons
WS4 vs. WS5
1 Wounds vs. 2 Wounds

What does it for me is the greatly increased fire from the extra 2 psycannons. Also the 2 wounds means that you can't be torrent of fired off the board.

ColdSadHungry wrote:I've tried to come up with reasons why you'd take terminators ... Nor do they compare favourably to Purifiers.

They don't even compare favorably to Strike Squad guys! GKSSs have much better shooting potential and are as durable or MORE durable per point spent against incoming fire against everything but AP3 attacks. On the charge, they even have more attacks than terminators in CC.

The only thing terminators are better at is getting into CC with high initiative models, due to their free halbreds.

Joe Mama wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:I've tried to come up with reasons why you'd take terminators ... Nor do they compare favourably to Purifiers.

They don't even compare favorably to Strike Squad guys! GKSSs have much better shooting potential and are as durable or MORE durable per point spent against incoming fire against everything but AP3 attacks. On the charge, they even have more attacks than terminators in CC.

The only thing terminators are better at is getting into CC with high initiative models, due to their free halbreds.

Well, Strike Squads only have 1 attack base and can only take the same number of psycannons as Terminators. Plus the Terminators can take a brotherhood banner, thus increasing the number of attacks they put out. Add to the banner Thawn and you have guaranteed force weapon activation plus the ability to use Hammerhand. In terms of ability, I think that Terminators compare much more favourably to Strike Squads than they do to Purifiers or Paladins. But if I was using strike squads and considering instead terminators, it would be for very different reasons to considering using Paladins or Purifiers.

ColdSadHungry wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:I've tried to come up with reasons why you'd take terminators ... Nor do they compare favourably to Purifiers.

They don't even compare favorably to Strike Squad guys! GKSSs have much better shooting potential and are as durable or MORE durable per point spent against incoming fire against everything but AP3 attacks. On the charge, they even have more attacks than terminators in CC.

The only thing terminators are better at is getting into CC with high initiative models, due to their free halbreds.

Well, Strike Squads only have 1 attack base and can only take the same number of psycannons as Terminators.

You didn't think this through. Per points spent, Strike Squads can take more psycannons. 5 Terminators with a psycannon is 225. 10 GKSS guys with 2 psycannons and a hammer is 230. When each squad is on the move, they put out 4 psycannon shots (terminator's is relentless, the GKSS's each fire 2 for a total of 4). When standing still, Terminators put out 4 shots, but GKSS put out 8 shots. The GKSS are better! Also, obviously, the GKSSs have 8 stormbolters versus the 4 that the terminators have, which means the GKSSs are clearly superior in shooting. (And they are also as tough, or tougher, per point spent, than the terminators, except against AP3. GKSS are better versus AP1+AP2, the same as termies verus AP4-AP6, per point spent unless they are in cover than they are better than termies there too).

Well, Strike Squads only have 1 attack base and can only take the same number of psycannons as Terminators.

Yes, they only have 1 base attack, so 2 attacks each on the charge. 10 GKSSs on the charge result in 20 attacks (16 power weapon, 4 regular). 5 Terminators get 15 attacks on the charge. Sure Terminators get free halbreds and hammers and the like, which makes them much better against some units, but you need to remember that GKSSs are not terrible, considering you get double the men, since they cost half as much as the terminators. The banners and other upgrades like Thrawn are crazy expensive and make terminators less efficient. Although sure, if you want a CC "deathstar" massive points sink of course you wouldn't choose Strikers. But in general, Terminators are far worse than Strikers. I'd rather have 60 GKSSs than 30 Terminators in an army - they cost the same, but GKSS are far far better in shooting, are way more than half as durable, and are at least half as good in CC against most things. For GKSSs to be equal to Termies, they'd individually half to be half as good since they cost half as much. But in 2 main areas they are way more than half as good.

In terms of ability, I think that Terminators compare much more favourably to Strike Squads than they do to Purifiers or Paladins.

Keeping in mind everything I just said, that's only faint praise. Like saying how the last place finisher (the terminators) compare more favorably to the third place finisher (the GKSS) than they do to the first and second place finishers.

If you only want a couple units of GKT as a tough, scoring, Relentless firebase, an easy fix for the Psycannon density issue is buying Ordo Malleus Inquisitors in Terminator Armor with Psycannons. For 305 points, you get 6 scoring, Sv 2+, Stubborn Ld 10 bodies (one of them T3, W3), 2 Relentless Psycannons, and whatever arrangement of Halberds and Hammers suits your fancy. A double-psycannon Paladin unit is going to run you 325, and can't score unless you drop another 275 on Draigo.

A 10-man GKSS squad also has a pretty big footprint on the table. You're either going to be eating more combo-charges than the GKTs would, or you're going to be exposing yourself to more pain from blast weapons and templates. Charging a 4-halberd, 1-hammer Terminators squad is also quite a bit scarier than charging an 8-force-weapon Strike Squad. 10 Furious Charge-ing BA assault marines have a much better chance against the GKSS.

There's also the matter of keeping missile-spamming opponents honest, which is a nice bonus for Terminators (more so than Paladins, actually!).

Joe Mama wrote:

Well, Strike Squads only have 1 attack base and can only take the same number of psycannons as Terminators.

Yes, they only have 1 base attack, so 2 attacks each on the charge. 10 GKSSs on the charge result in 20 attacks (16 power weapon, 4 regular). 5 Terminators get 10 attacks on the charge. Sure Terminators get free halbreds and hammers and the like, which makes them much better against some units, but you need to remember that GKSSs are not terrible, considering you get double the men, since they cost half as much as the terminators. The banners and other upgrades like Thrawn are crazy expensive and make terminators less efficient. Although sure, if you want a CC "deathstar" massive points sink of course you wouldn't choose Strikers. But in general, Terminators are far worse than Strikers. I'd rather have 60 GKSSs than 30 Terminators in an army - they cost the same, but GKSS are far far better in shooting, are way more than half as durable, and are more than half as good in CC against most things.

5 Terminators get 15 attacks on the charge, 20 if they have the Brotherhood Banner. They have 2A base, not 1.

I've found myself using them more and more recently.

Whenever I'd play terminators, I'd use them as Paladins and I'd always be happy with the results. However, my main irk with Paladins is that they're not scoring (without a 275pt investment) so I started looking into using terminators for lower point games and busting out the Paladins in 1750+ games.

Even though they only have 1 wound, they're still very durable and the fact that they're scoring really attracts me to them. Only being able to take 1 psycannon per 5 is a little disappointing but I usually have a Grandmaster with a psycannon in a squad so the damage output isn't too bad.

Compared to strikes? I can say that I've never lost a squad of Terminators to a rogue battlecannon....

Iranna.

I've been using 2 squads of 10 GKT as the troop element to my Ghostwings, which includes a 10-man GKIS squad, a Librarian, and of course Mordrak+Ghosts. As much of the army as I can is equipped to be unique for wound allocation (lets me stack hard to save wounds if they take enough hits), with the exception of the Interceptors which are just kept fairly cheap. Each GKT and GKIS unit has 2 Psycannons and 2 Daemonhammers, while the Librarian has a Teleport Homer. Its a flexible army build that gives me options versus different opponents without having to tailor my list (the "tailoring" is built-in).

I play them aggressively, keeping the army mostly in reserves if needed, combat squading when its appropriate, and using Grand Strategy to add strength where its most useful. So far, I've had better than averge results, with only Tyranids causing my issues to date.

SJ

Assuming we're not discussing HQ choices that affect Troops (you're clearly not going to take Terminators if you can instead recruit Purifiers or Paladins), we're basically comparing Terminators and Strike Squads.

Strike Squads, as it has been said, have point for point more firepower than Terminators ; on the other hand, Termies have free "special" Nemesis weapons and a higher number of Attacks, which would make them more suited for assault duty. All things being equal, they also weather enemy fire as well as PAGK : you fail twice more saves on a 3+ than on a 2+ . Low AP shots are going to cost them more dearly, but their 5++ helps somewhat, and they don't fear AP 3 weaponry.
Also, it is much easier to get a transport for PAGK than it is for Termies ; improving the big boys' mobility is either going to cost a bunch of points (Stormraven, Land Raider) or other FOC slots (inquisitorial Chimera). This is my main problem with Termies, I don't like to see them footslog.
Furthermore, the higher bodycount of Strike Squads means that for the same cost, you can have twice as much scoring units on the board, not counting Grand Strategy.

NeutronPoison wrote:A 10-man GKSS squad also has a pretty big footprint on the table. You're either going to be eating more combo-charges than the GKTs would, or you're going to be exposing yourself to more pain from blast weapons and templates.

Remember they can Combat Squad, with increased maoeuvrability and the possibility to then be used as speed bumps or lure. Agreed on the rest.

jeffersonian000 wrote:I play them aggressively, keeping the army mostly in reserves if needed, combat squading when its appropriate, and using Grand Strategy to add strength where its most useful.

I like this approach, I think this flexibility is a most valuable asset for an army that can't rely on quantity.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:5 Terminators get 15 attacks on the charge, 20 if they have the Brotherhood Banner. They have 2A base, not 1.

You are right. That's what I get for not proofreading. Going back to fix.

Hyd wrote:

NeutronPoison wrote:A 10-man GKSS squad also has a pretty big footprint on the table. You're either going to be eating more combo-charges than the GKTs would, or you're going to be exposing yourself to more pain from blast weapons and templates.

Remember they can Combat Squad, with increased maoeuvrability and the possibility to then be used as speed bumps or lure. Agreed on the rest.

Combat squadding has its own disadvantages, though. Firstly, enemy shooting only needs 5 wounds on you to get you to take a 3+ save on the Psycannon, and even when the enemy doesn't manage to put 5 wounds on you, you have to choose whether you want to lose shooting or close combat effectiveness, and your opponent can punish you for either choice. With GKTs, the choice is more clear-cut, since the guy with the Psycannon is clearly better than the rest of the squad.

The biggest disadvantage of combat-squadding GKSS, though, in my opinion, is that one of the combat squads has to be Ld 8. When you rely on psychic powers to be effective in close combat, when you aren't toting meltaguns to discourage tank shocks, when you've got to be within 24" to contribute to the battle, and when two casualties is enough to force a Morale Check, that's a real liability.

Not that I'm saying you should never combat squad GKSS (although personally I would never even have units of 10).

Also, it is much easier to get a transport for PAGK than it is for Termies ; improving the big boys' mobility is either going to cost a bunch of points (Stormraven, Land Raider) or other FOC slots (inquisitorial Chimera). This is my main problem with Termies, I don't like to see them footslog.

Footslogging them doesn't really bother me. Since they're Relentless with a 24" range, they'll probably be firing at full effect on Turn 1, and there's no reason for them go anywhere else once they hit midfield.

I suppose it could be a problem if all your Troops choices were GKTs, but I think 2 units of GKTs as Relentless fire bases and 4 meched-up units of GKSS is a pretty good balance.

SYou shouldn't only compare gkt to gkss, since you must take an hq and those hqs open up 3 other troop choices. Really hq needs to have a place in this discussion as no matter what hq you take it changes how your army plays.

Also, keep in mind terminators, even tactical sm termies, are assault units. Comparing their shooting to non terminators is unfair without mentioning the close combat.

For example, in the 10 gkss versus 5 gkt, if the gkss get the charge its 14 swords, 3.5 or 5 pw wounds and 1-2 regular wounds. The pw go on 4+ save sword termies and the armor on the hammer/pcannon. At the same time, the termies straight kill 2-3 gkss. The hammer kills another gkss, while the gkss has his hammer slowed by swords. End result is that termies win combat, and with low leadership the gkss have a serious risk of breaking.

Good points NeutronPoison. I guess you could say GKTs on foot are the proverbial anvil whereas in a transport they become the hammer. All this "Malleus" theme had me on hammer mode by default

DevianID wrote:SYou shouldn't only compare gkt to gkss, since you must take an hq and those hqs open up 3 other troop choices. Really hq needs to have a place in this discussion as no matter what hq you take it changes how your army plays.

Well, I agree with the bolded part, but as I said I can't see why you would take Termies if you can have scoring Paladins or Purifiers instead. Do feel free to expand on this though.

DevianID wrote:Also, keep in mind terminators, even tactical sm termies, are assault units. Comparing their shooting to non terminators is unfair without mentioning the close combat.

Did that happen here? Looks to me like very aspect, shooting, durability, CC, points efficiency, these were all mentioned. Terminators are much worse in shooting, worse overall per point spent in durability, better in CC, but not twice as good overall there, which is what they'd need to be to equal Strikers on points efficiency in CC alone.

Now there are cases where their CC advantages are very important, and in those cases this will make up for all of their other deficiencies, and they will perform better per point spent than the GKSSs in that role. But overall, Strikers are the better unit.

Well, I agree with the bolded part, but as I said I can't see why you would take Termies if you can have scoring Paladins or Purifiers instead. Do feel free to expand on this though

So on expanding, one HQ that does well with regular termies is the 89 point pcannon inq in termie armor. Add him to a 30 gk termie build, and because you save ~200 points on draigo, you end up with similiar levels of pcannons. A draigo list with Draigo and 20 paladins can only fit 6 pcannons in, while with 30 GK termies and the character you have 7 pcannons. Then in CC with 50% more bodies and thus more attacks, and no fear of instant death, the 30GKT can routinely outperform Draigowing.

Now, at 1850 and up, the initial cost of Draigo starts to diminish percentage-wise, letting the superior paladins start to pull ahead of a pcannon inq lord.

And to joemamma, in CC 1 termie is twice as good as 1 SS. 2+/4++ invuln makes for double the toughness of a strike squad member, and 2 attacks instead of 1 equal the same damage. I think the fallacy you made was that 5 GKT need to be 2x as good as 10 GKSS when the GKSS charges. The advantage there is still with the GKT, but the bonus for charging is situational... GKT get it as well.

DevianID wrote:

Well, I agree with the bolded part, but as I said I can't see why you would take Termies if you can have scoring Paladins or Purifiers instead. Do feel free to expand on this though

So on expanding, one HQ that does well with regular termies is the 89 point pcannon inq in termie armor. Add him to a 30 gk termie build, and because you save ~200 points on draigo, you end up with similiar levels of pcannons. A draigo list with Draigo and 20 paladins can only fit 6 pcannons in, while with 30 GK termies and the character you have 7 pcannons. Then in CC with 50% more bodies and thus more attacks, and no fear of instant death, the 30GKT can routinely outperform Draigowing.

Now, at 1850 and up, the initial cost of Draigo starts to diminish percentage-wise, letting the superior paladins start to pull ahead of a pcannon inq lord.

And to joemamma, in CC 1 termie is twice as good as 1 SS. 2+/4++ invuln makes for double the toughness of a strike squad member, and 2 attacks instead of 1 equal the same damage. I think the fallacy you made was that 5 GKT need to be 2x as good as 10 GKSS when the GKSS charges. The advantage there is still with the GKT, but the bonus for charging is situational... GKT get it as well.

Draogo+20 Paladins= 8 Psycannons
fail

As a side note, regular terminators are tough as hell in CC (2+/4++ with sword), so you can use them to tar pit loads of things (including paladins and other deathstars).

Seb wrote:As a side note, regular terminators are tough as hell in CC (2+/4++ with sword), so you can use them to tar pit loads of things (including paladins and other deathstars).

agreed, I'm an old GK player and regular terminators are not to be taken lightly, for around 500pt you can make them angels of death, i used them in a local RTT at 1500 pt, they were equiped like this

10xterminators
banner
2xpsycannos
2xhammers
3xswords
4xhalberds

they went on foot the whole tournament (i dont like to deep strike them) and they were with a grand master equipped with psyco, blind, and rad nades.
they survived in every game and killed: 5xmeganobs, 10xnobs, 20xburnas, that special weirdboy, 2xdemon princes, 10xbloobletters, 3xbloodcrushers, 7xplaguebeares, 10xcatachan, quimera, yarrick, and 20xvets
if you havent figured i played 3 rounds, first agaisnt orks, then againt deamons, and finally against imperial guard.
in conclution dont understimate them, they are a somehow cheaper alternative to pallies, great at 1500 pt.

DevianID wrote:I think the fallacy you made was that 5 GKT need to be 2x as good as 10 GKSS when the GKSS charges.

It isn't a fallacy, it is grade school math, at least when it is stated correctly. Each individual terminator needs to be twice as good as a Striker guy, since they cost twice as much. Or to put it another way 5 Terminators needs to be equal in effectiveness to 10 Strikers, since they cost the same.

In shooting, the terminator squad is well below equal. In durability, they are not equal either, especially if the unit can get into cover once or twice a game, which would make Strike Squads come out way ahead. So in 2 out of 3 main areas the terminators come up as the losers. In the 3rd, CC, they come out ahead, at least in cases where halberds matter.

If you spend more player turns in assault than you do shooting or getting shot at, then maybe terminators are right for you. Otherwise they just simply aren't as good. The problem isn't terminators being bad. It is that Strikers are too good.

I like to run a squad of 10 terminators with Justicar Thawn. Remember that Thawn is Level 2 psyker so with a banner you can cast Hammerhand and automatically activate the Nemesis force weapons. I have two daemonhammers in the squad, everyone else has halberds, plus there are two psycannons and I use psybolt ammo. It's a great unit due to being able to cast two psychic powers plus the large number of halberds make them quite deadly in close combat. As mentioned you can also attach the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor with a psycannon and Hammerhand.

They're not as good as Paladins but they are cheaper and automatically score. I find them to mix well in an army with Paladins.