Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Greetings,

I'm new the forums, and still a bit green when it comes to the encompassing Warhammer/40K universe. I've read more Warhammer than I have 40K, but after watching a few 40K games, reading the Ultramarines Omnibus, and picking up the 40k Rulebook and 3 codex's . . . I'm hooked! I wanted my brother to see the Ultramarines short film so I brought it over to his house this week to escape from the rainy cold day outside. My brother brought up some questions and points during the film, most of which I could answer from pouring over the material I've collected so far over and over. One point he brought up I couldn't really answer so I'm hoping someone here can.

He was commenting on how big Boltguns are, and in particular the shells, his point was . . . how can they fire that much without a reload? It is a good point after I thought about it, the shells of course are quite large in relation to the magazine. Really in my mind there is no way they could rail off rounds like that without constant reloads. Now I know we're talking science fiction here, but let's face it, the Warhammer 40K universe is very regimented in it's rules, and very detailed. So can someone explain this, am I missing something? Or perhaps we're just supposed to kind of overlook that? It doesn't matter to me much, but I am curious and I'm sure this has been discussed many times before.

So, what say you?

It's pretty much meant to be overlooked, like when Arnie or Sly uses up the entire defence budget of the US military in a single film.
Glad you're thinking about fluff and such, though, so at least you noticed it!

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:It's pretty much meant to be overlooked, like when Arnie or Sly uses up the entire defence budget of the US military in a single film.
Glad you're thinking about fluff and such, though, so at least you noticed it!

Yeah, this.

You arent really supposed to notice

It's stated that standard Bolt magazines carry 20-30 rounds. On a burst or semi-auto fire you can get a good use out of that. The main problem is we never see SM's carrying extra clips or what have you. Really they should just write in one day that SM Power Armor has a little magnetic clip holder on the back or something.

Harriticus wrote:It's stated that standard Bolt magazines carry 20-30 rounds. On a burst or semi-auto fire you can get a good use out of that. The main problem is we never see SM's carrying extra clips or what have you. Really they should just write in one day that SM Power Armor has a little magnetic clip holder on the back or something.

Don't some of the models have little pouches? I could've sworn I saw something like that.

Yea some models have pouches that would hold magazines

Harriticus wrote:It's stated that standard Bolt magazines carry 20-30 rounds. On a burst or semi-auto fire you can get a good use out of that. The main problem is we never see SM's carrying extra clips or what have you. Really they should just write in one day that SM Power Armor has a little magnetic clip holder on the back or something.

20-30 BOLTS? Naw, I can't imagine that being true. Not saying that you're wrong, but that GW is. Those magazines look like they can carry no more than ten bolts, even if you double stack them, which is probably the case. Maybe I'm overestimating how big bolts are, but I'm sure they're at least as big as 40mm grenades.

Rigid rules: Not really, overall; part of the lore's charm was that every statement made was coloured by propaganda and subjectivity so there wasn't much consistency and you were encouraged to form your own interpretation. It's moved a bit more now towards a 'word of god' method (and unfortunately they've got a complete imbecile in to play the god part - YMMV);

Astartes Big Bolters: Lots of conflicting theories here depending on source - eg; Astartes Bolters fire larger, faster, more powerful Bolts (at higher RoF) than regular humie Bolters [some folks really not keen on this interpretation]; Astartes are bigger and stronger so need a commensurately beefier weapon - especially if they're going to be clobbering fools with it in melee [that's what I'd go for];

Reloading: Hollywood gunz. Same thing as when the climax of a film/show involves the 'click' of an empty weapon... which in reality automatically holds back the bolt/slide on the empty magazine so it's obvious that you're out... just shrug and roll your eyes. Nevertheless, I didn't find the UM Movie that bad (say compared to the DoW games) in this regard... didn't bother me or anything but if it bothers you then you can count the RoF on screen and allow for ~30 rounds in the magazine. How does that work out? If there's any cut then they can have reloaded off-screen (have they got pouches on their belts?). One of the better Bolter interpretations I've seen in other media, in that flick.

Best of luck with your new interest.


EDIT: Samus_aran115: Yeah it'd be a squeeze for sure but you'd be looking at more like 20mm grenades in size (Bolt is .75 Cal).

Harriticus wrote:. Really they should just write in one day that SM Power Armor has a little magnetic clip holder on the back or something.

Sisters and Arbites have something called "mag strips" which are just little magnetic strips that attach to their armour and you can stick stuff to them.

Think 41st millennium double sided tape

Marines have mag strips as well. Several novels atleast mention for swords.

Considering a single bolter round would kill a normal guy, I doubt they need too many rounds in a magazine.

Matt Ward:"the God-Emperor hears the prayers of his little, blue children and using the whole of this psychical energy replaces the spent rounds of Ultramarine boltguns. All others must carry over-encumbering loads of ammunition. Lol HAX!"

Fun stuff, interesting replies all. I choose to look past it, and the Heavy Bolter guys do have that giant backpack!

In the RPG, I believe Deathwatch, the heavy bloter backpack stocks up only 250 bolts. Not a whole lot considering how long that takes to reload.

YEAH! RULE THE BACKPACK/BRITTANIA!

It's pretty well understood that Space Mariens can eat rock and crap ammunition, thus removing the need for resupply.

tsz52 wrote:Astartes Big Bolters: Lots of conflicting theories here depending on source - eg; Astartes Bolters fire larger, faster, more powerful Bolts (at higher RoF) than regular humie Bolters [some folks really not keen on this interpretation];

I'm not keen on this interpretation. All I've ever seen is the following; bolt pistols, bolters & stormbolters fire a .75 calibre bolt, regardless of whether they're being wielded by Astartes, Sororitas or by a human with one of the rare human-sized boltguns kicking around. All bolters fire at pretty much the same rate of fire, stated in the Inquisitor rulebook as single shot & semi-automatic (burst fire) of 2-4 rounds, depending on the boltgun. In the FFG Dark Heresy RPG this is stated under the profile of a bolter as being single shot & semi-automatic of 2 rounds. The main difference between the bolters used by humans, such as the Godwyn-De'az, and those in the hands of Astartes, let's use the Phobos pattern here, is that because of the size of their hands and the inherent strength of an Astartes* their bolt weapons are bigger and far more robust, otherwise they'll just crush them with their strength. It's a bit like Ogryn's and their Ripper guns.

They all still fire 0.75 calibre bolts though, excepting the Heavy Bolter which fires a 1.00 calibre bolt (well, actually 0.998) and are the only bolt weapons to be truly fully automatic.

As for reloading? Astartes do carry pouches for magazines** but it's one of those uncomfortable glitches that Astartes go into battle in depictions with just a single magazine. Either they're really awesome shots who can bend physics and make each bolt count amazingly well (multi-kill anyone?) or it's just one of those things you're not meant to notice.

*Strong enough to crush a mans head when out of their armour without any effort.
**NOT CLIPS. A stripper clip is a length of metal holding between 5 and 8 bullets RL, depending on which gun it is for, whilst a magazine is a container that holds the ammunition prior to it being fed into a weapon. Closest Marines get to 'clips' are belt-feeds that some Astartes & many C:SM use.

Recoil isn't related to calibre, it is related to the powder charge. The Astartes round could have a more powerful charge to increase short range lethality before the gyro-jet has time to build up speed.

Secondly, caliber only measures the diameter of a round. Two rounds can be the same diameter but vastly different in size. The astartes bolt could be larger to incorporate more explosives to increase damage, or more fuel to increase range and speed. This would in turn require a larger kicker charge, the resulting in the dangerous recoil some sources claim.

For a real world example look at an anti-materials rifle vs a desert eagle. The first could dislocate a shoulder, the second can be fired by hand, but they both use the same caliber ammo.

Not that I'm saying the recent trend of 'marines bolters are different' is the proper interpretation, but there isn't a fluff conflict there.

I seem to remember reading about "maglocks" on powerarmor for weapons and gear in the Night Lords novels.

riplikash wrote:Recoil isn't related to calibre, it is related to the powder charge. The Astartes round could have a more powerful charge to increase short range lethality before the gyro-jet has time to build up speed.

Secondly, caliber only measures the diameter of a round. Two rounds can be the same diameter but vastly different in size. The astartes bolt could be larger to incorporate more explosives to increase damage, or more fuel to increase range and speed. This would in turn require a larger kicker charge, the resulting in the dangerous recoil some sources claim.

For a real world example look at an anti-materials rifle vs a desert eagle. The first could dislocate a shoulder, the second can be fired by hand, but they both use the same caliber ammo.

Not that I'm saying the recent trend of 'marines bolters are different' is the proper interpretation, but there isn't a fluff conflict there.

Agreed. 22LR and the AR's .223 have only 3/1000ths of an inch difference in diameter.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:All bolters fire at pretty much the same rate of fire, stated in the Inquisitor rulebook as single shot & semi-automatic (burst fire) of 2-4 rounds,

I realize I'm just nitpicking here, but semi-automatic and single-shot are the same thing; burst is just burst. Of course, it may be different across the pond.

Single-shot means it doesn't cock itself after firing, like semi-automatics do.

example: a Kar98k is single shot, but an M1 Garand is semi-automatic.

But here, burst fire is a burst of 3 rounds occurring after a single pull of the trigger.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Harriticus wrote:It's stated that standard Bolt magazines carry 20-30 rounds. On a burst or semi-auto fire you can get a good use out of that. The main problem is we never see SM's carrying extra clips or what have you. Really they should just write in one day that SM Power Armor has a little magnetic clip holder on the back or something.

20-30 BOLTS? Naw, I can't imagine that being true. Not saying that you're wrong, but that GW is. Those magazines look like they can carry no more than ten bolts, even if you double stack them, which is probably the case. Maybe I'm overestimating how big bolts are, but I'm sure they're at least as big as 40mm grenades.

No I could see it. They would have to be staggered in the magazine but I think it could work. Youve got to realize that a Bolter looks like a correct fit.... on a Space Marine. So compared to us, its fething massive. And you might be over thinking just how large a .75 caliber round would be, while pretty ridiculous in size, still compared to a SM, it would be about right. Heres some pics to possibly help you see the size.
.50 caliber round compared to others

This one shows various sized rounds in MM. Notice the first 7.62 is the typical round the AK-47 uses. Now the SM uses a .75 caliber which is roughly the size of a 20mm round.

Ok and here is a .50 cal next to a 20mm rifle round. So there ya have it.

Though you have to remember that a lot of that 20mm round is the propellant charge; in the grim darkness of the far future the propellant is built into the warhead and probably uses a significantly more efficient material which will take up less space.

The only comparable part would be the diameter of the round itself. I'm sure I saw a schematic of a bolter round somewhere that had it at about 5-6cm long.

Bolt ammunition is cal 0.75, which is pretty much your average shotgun shell. If you go by GW's 3E core rulebook (which contained a schematic), the ammunition really is stacked in a zig-zagging manner. This is a 12-round sickle mag for a shotgun. Imagine two rows of these (as a bolter is quite a bit wider than a shotgun) and you're getting quite close to the 20-30 rounds that have been thrown around in the fluff.

BL's/FFG's interpretation of a difference between Astartes and "civilian" (lol) bolters and other weapons quite simply clashes with the version propagated by GW material which makes it clear that there is only one class of weapons. It's okay if you prefer BL's/FFG's take on the setting - just be aware that, like many other licensed material such as novels, it doesn't always mesh well with what the creators of 40k have written for 20+ years.

Also, if you go by GW, recoil should be negligible. The 2E Wargear book mentioned that bolter rounds leave the barrel at low velocity, the rocket motor taking the brunt of acceleration. Furthermore, Stalker-pattern rounds as also used by Deathwatch Kill Teams have been said to be subsonic, which is around the same or slower than the velocity of contemporary shotgun ammunition of the same size. Doesn't affect the Stalker round's damage potential, though.

For this reason, I like to compare boltguns to the modern AA-12 - this weapon has a similar caliber, is capable of automatic fire, and can load explosive rounds. Furthermore, internal recoil compensation works so well that you can pretty much dual-wield them without issue. And this is not even taking into account that a bolt weapon is much heavier, which also serves to lower recoil (as the kinetic energy of the shot has a greater mass to move).

Lastly, in all the studio material I've ever read, they talk about how loud and heavy these guns are, but never that recoil would limit their usefulness. Even for fully-automatic heavy bolters, their main disadvantage was described to be their "great weight and cumbersome nature". Not that this would keep various muscular individuals from using them solo (Harker, Ox, various gangers in Necromunda).

My two shells on the subject. Just another opinion, but formed by studying what GW themselves have written over the years.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

tsz52 wrote:Astartes Big Bolters: Lots of conflicting theories here depending on source - eg; Astartes Bolters fire larger, faster, more powerful Bolts (at higher RoF) than regular humie Bolters [some folks really not keen on this interpretation];

I'm not keen on this interpretation. All I've ever seen is the following; bolt pistols, bolters & stormbolters fire a .75 calibre bolt, regardless of whether they're being wielded by Astartes, Sororitas or by a human with one of the rare human-sized boltguns kicking around. All bolters fire at pretty much the same rate of fire, stated in the Inquisitor rulebook as single shot & semi-automatic (burst fire) of 2-4 rounds, depending on the boltgun. In the FFG Dark Heresy RPG this is stated under the profile of a bolter as being single shot & semi-automatic of 2 rounds. The main difference between the bolters used by humans, such as the Godwyn-De'az, and those in the hands of Astartes, let's use the Phobos pattern here, is that because of the size of their hands and the inherent strength of an Astartes* their bolt weapons are bigger and far more robust, otherwise they'll just crush them with their strength. It's a bit like Ogryn's and their Ripper guns.

Yeah, like I mentioned in the next bit of my post that you quoted from, I'd favour Astartes strength as the explanation for their big ol' Bolters. Was just pointing out some alternative ideas for Rudboy so he could make his own mind up, rather than dictating.

I'd just point out that in the FFG RPGs the Astartes Bolters do fire more damaging and penetrating Bolts at higher RoF than the regular, puny humie Bolters (I'll drop the refs for you if you want).

If FFG had scaled the Bolts' effectiveness from puny humie to Astartes, with power armoured SoB (or military grade power armoured anyone) somewhere in the middle then I might have bought it, but since they didn't then the balance of sources indicates no difference in Bolt power (40k TT stats etc), to me.

FFG weaponry is "scaled" to narrative purposes - it's why bolter damage jumps up and down depending on which of their books you're reading. The very first version of an Astartes bolter in any of their supplements was in a Dark Heresy adventure, and there it did the same damage as anyone elses.

Deathwatch is intentionally over the top, with Marines fragging Hive Tyrants solo within less than a dozen seconds and destroying hundreds of enemies in a single fight. One of the designers likened it to movies like "300", and that's about the level of realism you can expect of it. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it's quite simply a different tone than, say, Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader.

(as a sidenote: GW did write in the Codices that SoB equipment is equal to Astartes stuff)

Dunno Lynata, maybe you got different editions than I did but all of my FFG books have been consistent in having Astartes Bolts being more powerful than humie ones. Sticking with just DH: 'Inquisitor's Handbook' has the sidebar talking about humies not being able to handle Astartes weapons' recoil plus the illegal Angelus Carbine which uses snaffled Astartes Bolts (with the usual Astartes Bolt stats: better range, Pen and an extra d10 Dam); the earliest adventure Astartes I'm aware of is in 'Purge the Unclean' where his Bolt Pistol also has the Astartes stat line.

This seems to have continued over to Deathwatch, consistently, though I haven't read them yet [skimmed one just to give some guy the info about the Bolt weapons in the FFG books, read the entry for the Guardian Bolt Pistol and it made me go, "FFS, this is why I hate SMs... can't they just let up for even a second!?", and now they're in my pile of books that I scowl at from time to time...].

Following your sidenote; then SoB in DH should get Astartes Bolts then eh?!