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< taken by the void dragon >

Che-Vito wrote:To be paired with Necrons or CSM for a doubles tourney, C&C appreciated!

HQ:

Shas'El
- TL Missile Pods
- Drone Controller
- 1 Marker Drone

Troops:

Fire Warrior squad
- 6 models
- Shas'ui
- Markerlight

Fire Warrior squad
- 6 models
- Shas'ui
- Markerlight


Elites:

Crisis Suit Team
- 3 suits
- Team leader (w/ HW Blacksun Filter)
- Targeting Array
- TL Missile Pods

Crisis Suit Team
- 3 suits
- Team leader (w/ HW Blacksun Filter)
- Targeting Array
- TL Missile Pods

Crisis Suit Team
- 3 suits
- Team leader (w/ HW Blacksun Filter)
- Targeting Arrays
- TL Missile Pods

Heavy:

Broadeside team
- 1 model
- Targetting Array

Broadeside team
- 1 model
- Targetting Array

Broadeside team
- 1 model
- Targetting Array

Points: 999

1. Don't put TL missile pods on your shas'el, it is a waste of his good stats. The most common (and effective) shas'el build is CIB+PR+TA+HWMT for 100 points. Also never, ever take marker drones.

2. FW: No shas'ui, no markerlights and get a devilfish. These small squads with no mobility will be destroyed right away, leaving you with nothing for objectives, and shas'uis are useless, and markerlights are heavy 1 which is awful.

3. A few things. You'll want some diversity in the loadouts of your suits, this won't have too much of an effect. You don't need this many suits at 1000 points, it is making the rest of your list suffer. Also, if you're using TL Missile pods, I recommend a flamer as the third hardpoint. It discourages assault, is cheaper and TA does nothing on suits with TL. Also, no team leaders or HWBF ever, they are horrible. I suggest TL MP+flamer as one suits selection, MP+MT+PR as a second and don't bother with the third, spend the point elsewhere.

4. You REALLY, REALLY want a hammerhead to fit into your HS, trust me. Also, don't use TA on broadside, use A.S.S. so they can move and fire their railguns.

Wi the extra points from the stuff you drop in your elites section (and drop the third broadside, and the MLs on FW etc.) you should gain 363 points (after switching the weapons on the one crisis suit team and on the leader, the is, more than 400 before accounting for those) Which let's you get devilfish for your troops, a Hammer head with railgun and a unit of pathfinders to get some markerlight hits the only cost-effective way.

Note: Just did math and in order to afford those changes, you will need to get 1 devilfish in troops choices and one as the mandatory PF devilfish, and then give the devilfish to the second unit of FWs mid game.

4 pathfinders with a d-fish, DP
a d-fish w/ DP
and
a Railhead with BC, MT, DP should come out to 383, so you might have have to find another 20 points to drop.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

You've listed a lot of opinions, but not a lot of reasoning behind them. The Shas'el build you have listed IS very effective, but Necrons will have the 24" range covered. In this case, I was looking for the cheap, mandatory commander, that can put a bit of fire down from a distance. The Marker Drone is there, simply because I had 30 points leftover, and the game may be seeing a decent amount of night fighting due to the Necrons

This is not where you want to get Markerlights from. A marker drone costs almost the same as 3 pathfinders, and is much, much worse. CIB+PR+TA+HWMT is really the only competitive HQ option for tau, and is immensely killy.

The Fire Warriors are there because they need to be, and to provide a bit of Markerlight support for night fighting. Remember, that there is a second half to this list, which can focus more on holding objectives. I agree that the Devilfish would likely keep the Fire Warriors around for longer, paying 1/10th of my army for their transport alone, just seems to be too much.

Again, just like with the marker drone, you are paying thirty point for what amounts to 3 marker light hits if your FWs stand still the whole game. But they won't be. With their transport, they'll be lucky to touch an objective. Also, the second half can't hold objectives. Only troops take objectives. 12 FW running across the board without D-fish will get slaughtered, within two turns, and then you won't be able to score. The transport doesn't just transport them, it's not a rhino. It is also a tank, and a skimmer, and killier than almost anything in your list.

Normally, I would not use the Blacksun filter. I really see it as a waste of points, but in this case, it allows for more efficient night fighting capability, and keeps the suits cheap. While the suits may seem a bit much, they'll be able to shred transport-heavy lists at a range. For pure "killy" power, I don't see where the points could be better spent than Crisis suits.

They already have Acute sense, you are spending 8 points to upgrade one suit per squad to be slightly better in nightfighting, which is a waste. And they will ONLY be able to kill transports. This is really not very killy at all. Most crisis suits get 3-5 shots a turn. Yours get 2. Also, they can't pierce marine armour, which you will REALLY feel. Also, Hammerheads are MUCH killier than Crisis suits. The maximum amount of transports that can be in almost any list is 6, and even then, no one is going to have six. Let's do the math. If you pop 6 rhinos, that's 210, a fraction of the cost of your suits.

It really is just redundant, and you'll not be killing any infantry, like at all. Huge waste.

I was very much on the fence with A.S.S. or TA. I'll probably go one way or the other after some playtesting (as well as possibly merging the Broadsides into 1 or 2 units.)
Why is the Hammerhead needed? I don't see (besides a subpar Large Blast) what difference they will provide, that is worth more than 2 Broadsides.

A.S.S. is better. It is a fact. Take my word, I have been playing tau for many, many years. Otherwise you'll surrender 2+ turns of shooting by moving. Also, you can use it to hit side armour instead of front armour, by working the angles.

And the hammerhead IS needed. It is immune to 90% of the weapons in the game, Has 2 BS4 Burst Cannons, And has a LBT-NOT something to scoff at. LBT is one of the most useful things in the game, and this is one of only two ways to get it in the entire tau codex, and the only viable one of the two. It is one of the best tanks in the game. Plus, disruption pods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I don't see what the Pathfinders, Devilfish, and Hammerhead add to this list that is needed.
More Markerlights? Most things are running TL BS 3 or 4. I could probably drop the ones I already have, and add on 7 more Fire Warriors.
Mobility? For the Troops section, a Devilfish would add survivability and mobility to a Fire Warrior squad. I'll throw around some numbers tonight to see how it looks.

Pathfinders are the only efficient way to get markerlights, as well as basically being bonus FW.

Devilfish are one of the best transports in the game, they are fantastic. And having FWs inside makes them scoring. i usually don't bother taking the FWs out unless I need a fence to hold of an assault, they're THAT useless.

I don't agree with a lot of im2randomghgh's advice.

Che-Vito wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. Don't put TL missile pods on your shas'el, it is a waste of his good stats. The most common (and effective) shas'el build is CIB+PR+TA+HWMT for 100 points. Also never, ever take marker drones.

You've listed a lot of opinions, but not a lot of reasoning behind them. The Shas'el build you have listed IS very effective, but Necrons will have the 24" range covered. In this case, I was looking for the cheap, mandatory commander, that can put a bit of fire down from a distance. The Marker Drone is there, simply because I had 30 points leftover, and the game may be seeing a decent amount of night fighting due to the Necrons

I'd take the MarkerD's points and give one of your b-sides two Shield Drones. Also, the 'crons will have light vehicles covered, so why not have an anti-I config: BC/MP/TA , hwMT for your Shas'el?

Che-Vito wrote:Normally, I would not use the Blacksun filter. I really see it as a waste of points, but in this case, it allows for more efficient night fighting capability,

... which you'll need with Solar Pulse or perhaps your partner is using Imotehk?

As far as fielding 9 Deathrains, I think you could use a variety of load-outs, Firestorms, FKs and DRs. FSs are cheap, too.

I'd take the MarkerD's points and give one of your b-sides two Shield Drones. Also, the 'crons will have light vehicles covered, so why not have an anti-I config: BC/MP/TA , hwMT for your Shas'el?

bad advice, the second part I mean. for 7 more points you get an extra two shots with CIB, which has kinda-but-not-really rending, and uses the BS of the 'el to a much greater degree.

Also, Shield drones will be wasted unless you put the broadsides together.

Also, with CIB and PR, marine armour isn't too much of a problem. With BC+MP? Five shots, less than two get past a marine's armour. That's right, your HQ can kill ONE marine and only one a turn.

< taken by the void dragon >

Considering you are grouping with Necrons (Good mobility, Great Mid-range Firepower, Bad CC)

Consider nabbing a few kroot. Kroot are often ignored, but their cheap price for the ability to turn-1 create MOBILE COVER is hard to ignore. They are also great counter-assault units! Replace your 6 man FW squad with this, and you'll have a more versatile troop choice. This is especially useful considering the abundance of missile launchers in low point games (hello long fangs) that can easily destroy your suits - even with JSJ. This way, you can JSJ behind your kroot (works extra well if the kroot are in cover)

Considering all your suits are TL, maybe drop the BS+1? You don't really need it. Or consider getting TL Fusion blasters on some. Necrons kinda lack melta.

Lastly, trim the fat on broadsides by removing the relentless. I mean really, with 72" range, will a 1-6" shuffle really give you that LoS you need? Put the points in buffing up your FW squads or devilfish. Maybe SMS on Devilfish?

< taken by the void dragon >

It's a competitive HQ option for Tau, but not probably not needed (it is setup in a close-support role. Necrons have got the 24" zone covered pretty well there.)

YOu want that zone covered ad nauseum. That is the zone where you can inflict the maximum amount of pain, and kill anything that feels like assaulting, and then JSJ to safety. You cannot deal much damage further than that range, and less than that...this is tau we're talking about.

I threw in a Devilfish to give some mobility to one of the FW squads, in the case that I do need to move them forward to take an objective. Reserving the second squad to make a mid-to-late game walk to my own objectives, seems sound enough to me. While the Devilfish is much more than a Rhino, it lacks the firepower (by a long shot) to be considered anything more than a support "killer".

You did? Did you edit your first post? Anyways, I'm glad you at least added one. But really, you want as many as you can get. the other ones will walk, but they will fold to just about anything shooting at/ assaulting them, and they are half your ability to capture. They might not even make it in time; infantry is very, very slow. And the stock devilfish is mostly for transport, but warfish are killers, they will take on light vehicle and guard blobs with relative ease, thought I admit they are inappropriate for itty bitty games like this one.

I agree. This list standalone will suffer against MEQ and hordes, which is why I've got an ally
If one squad of suits brings down a Vendetta, (which is absolutely an option, given their loadout), they've earned their points back in one turn.

This list will suffer against ANY infantry, and infantry consist of most of the game. Also, this is not especially useful because gauss weapons can easily take down vehicles, and scarabs make a mockery of vehicles. Focus on killing infantry. That is what Tau are good at. As an aside, almost all tau units happen to have some degree of vehicle killing power, with FW able to take down transports. If If If, because that Vendetta would easily kill you squad if it targeted them. Also, they couldn't do it in one turn. I mathhammered it and ~3.5 turns is the best case scenario, if it just kinda stood there not killing anything, and that's a valkyrie. a Vendetta will punish your army HARD and instagib the entire unit in one turn, whereas, statistically speaking, you're as likely to fail as your are to succeed if you direct your WHOLE elite section, 1/3 of your army, at it.

MPs only impressive abilities are it's range and it's ability to instagib IG IC.

From one Tau player of years to another, I get it. A.S.S. is wonderful, but in an allied game, accurate long-range fire (for an ally who lacks much of that) can also be golden. I'll give the A.S.S. a run-through, and probably end up using it, because it does allow me to Reserve a suit or two if need be, and have it fire as it walks on.

Well I'm glad to hear that too. A.S.S. is just wonderful. I cannot count how many times I have had XV88s near table edges that I haven't moved because I wanted more shots, and then outflanking genestealers and POW! No more broadsides

FW are absolutely terrible, which is unfortunate. I'd love for them to be more useful, I like the models/concept more than a little. I'll give one Devilfish a shot, and run some games. My ally is the designated anti-horde/close fire support, and he'll be contributing his own Troop units to the mix as well.

The problem is that 7/14 codices are marines, and alot more armies are marine than that ratio would demonstrate, and if he is anti-horde (which is one of tau's best areas so you may wanna take that up with him) and you have this, then neither of you have anti-meq, which is a huge fething issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Best kroot tactic:

Place an objective in forested terrain.

G2G with kroot there.

Enjoy your 2+ cover save.

20 2+ models is basically unkillable with shooting, which forces an assault. When you can predict the enemy, you can lay a trap.

But, I acknowledge that you can only get 13 krootz and they may not be tempting enough.

BTW have you dropped the BFs? Because 1 suit per unit with it won't really affect the unit and may actually make it worse.

(If the one suit attacks a far target the rest can't see, they end up doing nothing, or you can have all three attack a closer target)
EDIT: just saw the new list, nvm the BF comment

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, at three more points a suit you can put flamers in place of Blacksun filters which will do a lot more.

AND you really do need diversity in your suits, Fireknife config. can pop transports AND infantry.

Also, if you just really want your HQ to be cheap, you might as well make him a deepstriking TL flamer suicide unit.