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Well I have been playing this list for a while now and I have been told its broken as hell, all grey knights are broken, what do people think? is it really that bad? what should I do to make the list more player friendly? I generally use it as a outflanking or scout list trying to rush my opponent as quickly as possible (yes I do use strikes in combat), I even had a DE player moaning about my Grey knights today, whats a guy to do :(



HQ

Grey Knight Grand Master
- Master Crafted Nemesis Force Halberd
- Pyschotroke Grenades
Total 200pts


Elite

Venerable Dreadnought
- Assault Cannon
- Psybolt ammunition
- Heavy Flamer
- Psyflame ammunition
Total 205pts

(5) Paladins
- 2 Incinerators
- 3 Nemesis Force Halberds
- 1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer
- Brotherhood Banner
Total 305pts


Troops

(10 ) Grey Knight Strike Squad
- 2 psycannons
- 1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer
- Rhino
Total 270pts

(10 ) Grey Knight Strike Squad
- 2 psycannons
- 1 Nemesis Daemon Hammer
- Rhino
Total 270pts


Heavy Support

Land Raider Redeemer
- Psybolt ammunition
Total 250pts

I like it but there is a mistake in the paladins. You can't have a BB , a hammer and 4 halberds on 5 models. You need 6.

I think the list has potential, but the Ven Dread seems a bit off to me. First of all, why get BOTH psybolt and Psyflame? It makes it really expensive. Second, how is it getting close enough to flame?

Paladins are always a pain. at 1500 pts, these guys are incredible. Good choice on Land Raider, the Lascannons help this list A LOT. Unfortunately, if your LRR is destroyed, you are suddenly left with a very slow, very short ranged army. For example, Dark Eldar might give you trouble.

My suggestions is to cheapen the ven dread a bit, or maybe replace it for a regular dread? That way you can add more points for more target saturation.

@ deadshot - The models are armed legally, I just forgot the remove one of the halberds from the list, I originally didn't have a banner

@ Dnptan - Reason for the MK IV and Redeemer is forgeworld kits, those kits are pretty much the reason why I wanted to start Grey knights before the new codex came out, I use these things and people still bitch about how over powered my army is, I removed the psycannons from the Paladins as I thought it would make them seem less overpowered, still bitching, I really don't see what is that OTT about my list which is why I have come online, atm I am thinking I should just go and sell my army and get a new one to stop of the damn moaning.

I'd go with Venerable Psyflenought, dropping the heavy flamer for another TL AC. That or drop the TL AC for another Short range weapon, losing the Psyflame or Psybolts respectively. The Psybolts on a redeemer seems weird too, but otherwise it seems ok. I'd be looking for more bodies on the floor personally, but to each their own.

Psybolts on a Redeemr or crusader turn the Assault Cannon into a psycannon.

@ liquidjoshi - Thanks for the reply however I am not trying to optimize the list, I'm more trying to figure out what I can use so people won't moan about how "broken" my list is??

I think its starting to reach the point if I keep downgrading stuff the list will be unplayable, on the flip side its going to be I'm winning because I'm using Grey knights (apparently).

In reality if I wanted to optimize it I think I would take two standard riflemen rather than a single venerable, no raider, maybe another squad of strikes, lose the paladins for normal termies and see how many points that let me with.

GK isn't overpowered. Don't let their moaning get to you.

Ward codices, contrary to popular belief, are NOT overpowered. They just change the way the game is played. Blood Angels made DEEP STRIKE viable, MARINE FNP and made MARINE TANKS FAST. This is not OP. This just allows people to deep strike and assault, or have a very mobile tank list. Is BA OP? No. It just required a change in tactics. Before BA lists weren't prepared for "null deployment" (that is zero on the board) and that is why when they first came out, they were considered "imba" coz now you had nothing to shoot at.

Grey Knights are the same. Before they came footslogging was limited to horde armies, and the occasional deathwing. Now you have a viable foot slogging/deep striking list of ELITES. That's what GK is, elite. Sure they are hard to kill, but once you start downing models, GK firepower downs really quicky. Additionally, the blaring weakness of GK is 24" range. How do I deal with GK? I use my 60" Fire prisms to soften them up. GK forced my list to get more long range firepower. Is that imba? No, just change of tactics.

Lastly, Necrons. They made night fighting a rule. Now you have to buy those searchlights! Also, the WBB rule makes you HAVE to kill squads. Before this, you just killed a squad until it is no longer a threat. Now you need to prepare for utter annihilation.

My point is, Ward Dexes change the game. When nids or IG came out, they didn't change the game, they just gave a new faction. Your old lists still worked. Melta spam? Yep. Razorspam? Yep. But vs BA and GK, Melta spam isn't so great. Other dexes that changed the field were SW and DE. But that's Phil fething Kelly. He is the greatest writer GW has to offer.

So in short, don't give up your GK. Tell your friends to shoot your LRR down and stay over 30" away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also let me just detail how my eldar list would handle this, just so you can a) see that your GK list isn't invincible (convince your friends!) and b) point out some weaknesses in your list. For reference, my 1.5k point list looks like this:

HQ
Farseer
(RoW, SS, guide, doom, jetbike, spear)
Autarch
(PW, Fusion Gun, jetbike)
Warlocks x 3
(Jetbike, enhance, embolden, destructor)

Elites
5x dragons
Serpent (TLSC, SS)

Troops
Guardian bikes x3 (Cannon)
Avengers x 9 (Exarch, Dual cannons, Bladestorm)
Serpent (TLEML, SS)
Avengers x 9 (Exarch, Dual cannons, Bladestorm)
Serpent (TLEML, SS)

HS
Fire Prism
Fire Prism


---


Ok, first off, I will let you have first turn. I will deploy as far away from you as possible. Prisms in the back. Serpents in the middle, Council in the very front. Guardian bikes in reserve. It doesn't matter if it's objectives or annihilation.

While you scoot your army to midfield (as all GK do) I will focus fire on your Land Raider with my Fire prisms. Hopefully something happens. If not, that's fine, I still get free shots at you. Once your Land raider gets into range, I will still have my prisms out of range, so all you can shoot at are my wave serpents. My council (with fortune up) will provide cover save for them. It is unlikely that you drop even one wave serpent as your Lascannon will only be str 8, and I get 4+ cover from them. Either way, I will be firing prism shots at your raider until I either immobilize or destroy it (not going for wep destroyed).

Once that happens, I can move the rest of my army in. At this point you should be withint 24" range and ready to shoot. My vehicles will then be in front of my council. If you are in range, so am I. Your psycannons will be hard-pressed to hurt my serpents (str 7) and more likely than not, I'll survive. I then disembark my avengers to bladestorm both your DOOMED strike squads. They will all die! MWahaha (ok maybe not, but very crippling. Imagine 29 str 4 shots with BS3, rerollable wounds. That's gotta hurt.) Fire dragons (If still alive, chances are this is what you aim for first so if they are dead they you can skip this part) will finish off the Land Raider (if it is still alive) otherwise will go for your paladins. Fire dragons rape paladins. And so will my str 9 ap 2 blast template from my prisms (which you cant touch). Seer council will destroy your ven dread. Witchblades are nasty!

So, this is how I intend to take your army on. Sure, it might not go according to plan, but you can see how even a 4th ed army has the capacity to take down the "imba" army. It all depends on experience. GK is really good in assault, so I'm not assaulting a single one of your units. Except the ven dread, because it is VERY VULNERABLE to assaults. Str 6 no power weapon makes it a very expensive brick. And you're slogging it.

The biggest threat to me in this list is the LR. Those lascannons can hurt (9% chance of destroying a wave serpent if it fires both lascannons - 14% chance of at least immobilizing, which is essentially "destroyed" for eldar) But other than that there is nothing that can threaten me if I hugh the board edge. 24" is very debilitating. If you play against another GK player (like me) who knows this weakness, it will be a tough fight.

Honestly I don't think its invincible, I would however say that I have certainly been winning a hell of a lot more since I started using grey knights and outflank, I think many people feel that the GM's ability to adapt the list to what is needed rather than pay for it pregame is what is broken, I certainly will have issues dealing with armies like that, it really depends what I can outflank and if your going first and if I can get my Redeemer into a position that will give it some cover so it can atleast negate some of those strength 9 templates :(

dnptan wrote:GK isn't overpowered. Don't let their moaning get to you.

Ward codices, contrary to popular belief, are NOT overpowered. They just change the way the game is played. Blood Angels made DEEP STRIKE viable, MARINE FNP and made MARINE TANKS FAST. This is not OP. This just allows people to deep strike and assault, or have a very mobile tank list. Is BA OP? No. It just required a change in tactics. Before BA lists weren't prepared for "null deployment" (that is zero on the board) and that is why when they first came out, they were considered "imba" coz now you had nothing to shoot at.

Grey Knights are the same. Before they came footslogging was limited to horde armies, and the occasional deathwing. Now you have a viable foot slogging/deep striking list of ELITES. That's what GK is, elite. Sure they are hard to kill, but once you start downing models, GK firepower downs really quicky. Additionally, the blaring weakness of GK is 24" range. How do I deal with GK? I use my 60" Fire prisms to soften them up. GK forced my list to get more long range firepower. Is that imba? No, just change of tactics.

Lastly, Necrons. They made night fighting a rule. Now you have to buy those searchlights! Also, the WBB rule makes you HAVE to kill squads. Before this, you just killed a squad until it is no longer a threat. Now you need to prepare for utter annihilation.

My point is, Ward Dexes change the game. When nids or IG came out, they didn't change the game, they just gave a new faction. Your old lists still worked. Melta spam? Yep. Razorspam? Yep. But vs BA and GK, Melta spam isn't so great. Other dexes that changed the field were SW and DE. But that's Phil fething Kelly. He is the greatest writer GW has to offer.

So in short, don't give up your GK. Tell your friends to shoot your LRR down and stay over 30" away.

Pure fact. ^

Yeah your 100% right there.... GK arent overpowered.. They just place above the bell curve of all regular armies in 40k because they are so average. Tournaments results come in all the time with the top 10 mostly made up of average at best GK armies.... If the GK are average then everybody is just plan mediocre, chaos becomes mediocre -1 along with Tau at medicore -2.

We can scale it like that if it makes you feel better....

I'm okay playing a Medicore -2 Army =]

Thanks Milisim for taking the time to look at the armylist and post a constructive post which might give me ideas on how to make the list more acceptable to the GK haters about.

I really starting to think if I want to continue playing grey knights I should take lots of strikes and termies, lead by a captain and just walk across the table, but rhinos just don't use them, you know, walk next to them with my troops.

As a list, I really don't see it as "broken". There are very few truly broken lists in the game and almost every single list will have some sort of weakness.

Some things which irk me (some of which others have pointed out):

1. The VenDread is really expensive. While I love the fact that you've tried to stay away from the TL-Autocannon madness that Grey Knights can bring to the table I do feel you could cheapen him up a bit, perhaps leave the psyflame ammunition at home.

2. I would really love to see Psycannons on those Paladins. Your Redeemer already has flamestorm cannons and in the event that the Land Raider does get taken out, you'd still have the range to pose a threat to almost anything within 30".

3. I think you should just drop the psybolt on the Redeemer, really just to trim some points. However, it's not really a big deal, you wouldn't gain anything really from Psyflame ammunition so Psybolt is better for it.

Like I said, I really like the idea behind this list, it's a nice little break-away from what I constantly see Grey Knight players doing. I would probably try and grab some halberds in the Strike Squads to help reduce CC wounds they take (less people hitting you = more people hitting them)

Iranna.

Ah, actually processed your first post properly this time (Assault cannon, not Autocannon!), and have only this to say. If they're complaining cheese about that, they are just sore losers. That is in no way cheese, definitely not compared to what GK can put out (10 DCA in a Stormraven anyone?)

What might help is telling us what people you frequently play use. It might help us look at it from another perspective.

Cheers Irana!

1: I wouldnt bother with the flamer at all but the incinerator is bonded rather well (its the MK IV from FW) last time I tried to take it off it snapped :(

2: Originally I was using this:

GM: as now
5 Paladins: 2 psycannons (another 5 paladins in 1750 just no psybolts on strikes)
2 x10 strikes: hammer, 2 psycannons, psybolts, rhino
Stormraven
Venerable

played this ork arm with a crap load of kans and cover saves all over the place, I decided then I really needed something to deal with all them stupid cover saves and clear people from buildings.

The redeemer was added later, honestly I always thought restricting the paladins somewhat would reduce the noise made about them.


3: FW conversion kit

@ liquidjoshi - Hah! I wouldn't say everyone is, just the necron, the ork and a chaos player, well the one of the chaos players who is hiding on this forum some place says I use the army like a git.

From memory the necron player has:

Monolith
1 over lord with stick and stupid scarab things, 3+ invun
2 necron lords with sticks and stupid scarab things, 3 + invun I think
1/2 cryptechs (one has a haywire grenade type thing)
4/5 destroyer (2 of which are heavy I think)
maybe 3 units of warriors (one in a transport)
bunch of scarabs
some skimmer with some lightning thing that bounces around units

Personally I think he could use some immortals, ditch the monolith and get a doomsday arc.


You have the Ork player who uses a cult of speed list:

big unit of bikers with wazzdakka
5 nobz in truck, various weapons for wound allocation
3 units of orks in truckz
battle wagon with deathroller (stupid thing)
has a big mek with some more orks in it
3 kopptas
loads of powerfists

Chaos player had last time:

unit of thousand sons in rhino
daemon prince with lash
vindicator
chosen
normal bods in rhino
several plasma, melta and powerfists

Played him again and everything has MoT, and he said its how I use the list thats beardy rather than the list.



DE player was someone I had never played before down some club i rarely go, his list was:

some wyche character

4 x 10 wyches in raiders (3 lances, no haywire)
ravager
some silly bomber of mass S6 template weapons
5 incubi in some crappy transport
10 Scouges (they had a silly amount of shooting)

Looking at the response Milisim has given I really doubt it will matter what I use


Tau player (who also has grey knights)

3 broadsides
commander in suit
3 hammerheads
3 firewarrior squads in transports
markerlight unit
AP3 flappy things

itsonlyme wrote: ...he said its how I use the list thats beardy rather than the list...

No such thing as a beardy tactic. If they can't deal with outflankers then they need to think about their own tactics. Perhaps showing them the definition of beardy would help too.

liquidjoshi wrote:

No such thing as a beardy tactic. If they can't deal with outflankers then they need to think about their own tactics. Perhaps showing them the definition of beardy would help too.

My sentiments exactly.

I get this all the time whenever I pull a multi-assault off: people claiming that it's a "beardy" move and because I pull it off I'm a WAAC gamer.

My advice would be to tell them to step off. It's not your fault that you're a better calibre of gamer. Perhaps instead of them whining that you're beardy and Grey Knights are OP (which they're not) they should be prompted to look at where they went wrong in-game and perhaps they can improve.

Iranna.

To be honest I thought the DE army was far worse than mine, not as bad as some of the DE lists I have seen but the amount of Lances they can spam is just filthly wrong. Thinking back on it I am amazed that the Redeemer and Dread are the things that survived because in the end he couldn't hurt them I was expecting them to go first!

Now reading this I think I will start this into a constructive topic, I plan on going to a tournament next month, any suggestions on how to bump this up to 1750pts.

I have 5 more paladins with twin psycannons and lots of Halberds, stormraven, 6 Purifiers or possibly I can afford to add something cheap on the wallet (maybe I could convert over some of my Blood Raven Dreads?)

I would in the raven, with Assault Cannon, Multi melta and.hurricaines.l if you can. Mount the Vendread, paladins and grand master in the stormraven I use it as a freight train of death. Anything the paladins assault will die. The dreadnought has DCCW and so is very good when my mounted in a storm raven.

PS This post was peyton using voice command.

For 5 paladins + a GM, I'd take a stormraven (which can also transport your dread).
(I think there are no lascannon in a LRR by the way)

I agree on the vendread part. Seems overpriced. I would either leave him with assault cannon + stormbolter (without psybolt so the SB is a defensive weapon), or swap him for a teleporting DK. Or, or, or, or swap him for DSing regular terminators that can score.

If you can't take both, I'll take rad nades or psy ones.

The Grand master can make him and the paladins score. Also, it doesn't matter about the strength of the storm bolterfor the dress is a walker so I can always fire all of his weapons.

itsonlyme wrote:Thanks Milisim for taking the time to look at the armylist and post a constructive post which might give me ideas on how to make the list more acceptable to the GK haters about.

I really starting to think if I want to continue playing grey knights I should take lots of strikes and termies, lead by a captain and just walk across the table, but rhinos just don't use them, you know, walk next to them with my troops.

It doesn't seem fair that you should have to change your list so that other people can beat it... The game is balanced by the set up of the system itself, "You get 1500, I get 1500, lets play!" If people are complaining about always being beat they either need to adjust their play style, their list, or play more games and become a better general. I see people who become convinced that their lists are functioning at premium and that should they get beaten, the fault has to be found somewhere other than with themselves.

Now that I got that out of my system, if you need to adjust the army a bit and tweek it so you can make your fellow gamers feel better about playing your list, take a cheap Inq. with a cheap special weapon, take your pick, and add some henchmen, the warrior acolytes at 4 pts ea. This would give them a unit or 2 to shoot and you could get this for just over a 100 points. Now they have something they can exalt in killing rather quickly to feel better about themselves.

I know you have to keep the other gamers happy at the local game store, but that doesn't mean you have to be miserable. What happens when one of those whiners buys your army then begins showing up. Other than stomping him since you know the list potential and proving it can be done, all you're doing is focusing the bit@hing away from you but it doesn't solve everyone else's problem. Good luck, don't give up just because you're taking some flak.

@ deadshot - A stormraven is certainly one of my first thoughts however I think who goes first would really change what the Paladins went in, I think if I went 2nd they would have to go in the Redeemer however thats a crap load of points waiting in reserve without the use of Communion. Are the Hurricans really worth it? Might I be better off putting psybolts on the strikes so when they jump out I can unleash the S5 stormbolter rounds (this depends on who i am facing).

@ Seb - The incinerator wont come off without damaging the model, its armed as the model, I have the FW Mk IV with psycannon weapon and force halberd arm with comes with a incinerator. One advantage of how its armed is all its weapons cause instant death on T3 targets, people forget that this ignores feel no pain on things like Wyches ( I did).

A scouting TP dreadknight would be mighty tempting however, I have tried this before, was very amusing

@ Barathoern - Well after his lack of response as to what is actually acceptable I don't think I am going to bother changing a thing. I've come here at the end of the day as a GK player asking what would make for a more acceptable army to play against, if they can't give make a constructive post then I guess its the usual "its new so it must be broken"