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Converting up some guardsmen to be a squad of vets and wondering how I was going to equip them or what there "role" was going to be. I don't have ANY plasma in my normal list and my only ap 2 is from las cannons. So 3 plasma guns for them.(In a chimera of course) Looking at there other options I got to thinking about giving them demolition. Everyone gets a melta bomb which is pretty neat for. But what really interested me was the demo charge.

I see the short range being a bit of an issue. With a small chance of them blowing themselves up. But with a BS of 4 that should help with that a bit. I generally do well with the scatter dice. Plus match that with 3 plasma guns at rapid fire range. Plus if they are able to use it from inside the chimera they at least have that to protect themselves from the blast if things go wrong. Seems like a very strong setup to remove a squad of termies from the board. But the price tag for all this does come out to an even 200 pts.

Anyone have any exp with a demo charge on some vets? I have never seen them being used but I have never herd anything negative towards them either.

I think that is the only viable choice for plamas other than in the CCSs due to IGs regular low BS. As for the unit as a whole, that's about a 10th of your points in one unit at a 2000 point game, which for me seems like a lot to risk to get that demo charge into the right area at the right time. I do like that your squad would be inside a chimera if it does blow back onto your team, at least you stand a good chance of coming out of it with some of your guys alive.

Off the direct post, but if you want a sure shot demo charge, go with Marbo. Put him where you want him and let her rip! For 65 points, he almost always gives back that and usually double his point value.

I stick with the 3 special weapons my vet squad is armed with and that's it. 3 plasma/melta, no other upgrades.
I prfer to keep points low to give me the ability to buy other "boots & guns" as it were.

Yea the price tag does really sting. Would 3 meltas instead make the idea better? Less shots but you know have the option to also heavily threaten tanks. Since you could charge afterwards and make use I'd the melta bombs.

Or what about the cheaper special weapons with a demo charge? Or JUST the demo charge and no other upgrades. Though this would turn them into a bit of a one hit wonder.

A Matter of Pride wrote:Yea the price tag does really sting. Would 3 meltas instead make the idea better? Less shots but you know have the option to also heavily threaten tanks. Since you could charge afterwards and make use I'd the melta bombs.

Or what about the cheaper special weapons with a demo charge? Or JUST the demo charge and no other upgrades. Though this would turn them into a bit of a one hit wonder.

My Vet squads have 3 things in common:
1-They have as many Melta or Plasma as they can carry. Three of one kind, or another. No mixing.
2-They're riding around in Chimera. I will have Vendettas, and they're empty.
3- No Snipers, flamers or GL. If I run any of those, they're in a IS or a PCS.

If you want to run demo charges, I'd do it in a SWS. If they scatter back into themselves, you're not losing
any BS 4 Melta / Plasma vets. If you don't want to include a platoon to get the SWS, I'd skip them.

I love the Demolitions doctrines for my Vet army. While my army is more fluffy than competitive ( I do not do play in tournaments) I feel that they add to the army. I have two squads of melta with demolitions and they are always do pretty well by me. As if I am close enough for meltas, I am close enough to lob the demo charge, so range is not much a problem. For you range should not be much of a problem when pairing with the plasmas as you can double tap. But in my experience, save the charge for MEQs and TEQs if you can, that way you can take advantage of the low ap and high strength. Granted hitting an ork mob is always fun. As for the other special weapons, I can see pairing with three flamers for crowd control, but I hate waste the BS 4 on flamers, with the GLs, you want to stay way as much as possible so it is not a good match in my opinion. Once again this is my opinion, but never get a vet squad with out three special weapons.
I will say that the melta bombs can be a nice bonus when attacking vehicles and many times opponents forget that they have them and pay for it, but do not count on it for every time.
As for the scatter, its the guard, life is cheap.

I have run the demolitions option alot with one squad of vets. melta gun x3 and 6 shotguns, with the sgt with a pistol/chainsword. The demolitions work well with all the assault weapons, realy takes termies out, when the charge doesn't scatter. I like using it, some times it works out great, other times, some what, and every now and then, very badly. Just be careful with tossing the demo charge.

Thanks for the input. I'll give em a shot and are how it works. Trying out the plasma/demo/chimera build first.

Massed demo charge guardsmen will play merry havok with GK termie builds. Especially if you give them melta guns too.

I have been running Melta/Plasma Vets with Demolitions for a while, it works fairly well in my opinion. It forces your opponent to think twice about getting close to your vets knowing that they can toss a bit of ordinance on a whim.

A Matter of Pride wrote:Thanks for the input. I'll give em a shot and are how it works. Trying out the plasma/demo/chimera build first.

Not to sound like I'm arguing with everything you post!
I'd stick with Meltas instead of Plasma.

alarmingrick wrote:

A Matter of Pride wrote:Thanks for the input. I'll give em a shot and are how it works. Trying out the plasma/demo/chimera build first.

Not to sound like I'm arguing with everything you post!
I'd stick with Meltas instead of Plasma.

Haha! No worries. I am gunna due plasma first due to not having any currently in my army and go from there. I see the merit in melta but plasma is more of the hole I currently have.

Yes, stick with melta guns. Shot guns, melta guns, and the demo charge can realy take a enemy squad down in numbers alot. I know, IG does not assault, but, if you have a full squad of ten, shoot them up, demo hits (you hope), you should remove a good amount of them. Charge in assault, you willhave better numbers then your opponenet. You might take some casualties, but, if you don't charge, you will get charged. Plasma and lasguns will not work with you on that.

I have run the melta/shotgun/demo with harker lately. That is alot of fun that takes people by surprise.

At 2k I run 6 demo charges. 3 in a sws, 2 demo doctrines, and marbo. Most players attempt to bum rush ig as fast as possible, so I try to make it painful when they get close.

The thing I like most about demo doctrine is meltabombs in a vendetta on turn 1. If I go 1st it gives an opponent 3 choices.

Let me multi assault vehicles on turn 1 with autohits to the rear armor with melta bombs.

Bubble wrap vehicles with infantry so manticores can template both with the same blast.

Go full reserve and take a -1 to reserve rolls from my officer of the fleet.

In a complete lack of cheese, my fluffy unit is some Tyranid Hunter-Veterans. They waste BS4 by taking flamers, but being kitted out with a demo charge is wild. They flamers perform well enough that I don't much miss making use of BS 4, and since flame templates are 8 inches, getting 2 in closer to blow them apart with the charge isn't a problem.

(Of course, in any competitive list, if you want a non-marbo democharge-drop, put 2 flamers with it in a SWS, cheaper and more cost-effective when they inevitably blow themselves up. Not to mention if they take hoof it towards the enemy, you'll possibly buy yourself a turn of shooting while they try to keep that SWS from getting close enough to use the charge.)

(3 Meltas+Power fist+Demo Charge+shotguns) / Vendetaa = wooooo assaulty space marine stomping fun.

alarmingrick wrote:

My Vet squads have 3 things in common:
1-They have as many Melta or Plasma as they can carry. Three of one kind, or another. No mixing.
2-They're riding around in Chimera. I will have Vendettas, and they're empty.
3- No Snipers, flamers or GL. If I run any of those, they're in a IS or a PCS.

If you want to run demo charges, I'd do it in a SWS. If they scatter back into themselves, you're not losing
any BS 4 Melta / Plasma vets. If you don't want to include a platoon to get the SWS, I'd skip them.

I was going to type out a long winded response on the matter, but this sums up my thoughts nicely.

With IG, more is better. That means you keep everything as cheap as possible, running the minimum upgrades necessary to accomplish a task. Doctrines are largely not needed and rarely worth the points.

I disagree with 2 points being made here.

Vendettas are not always best left empty.

Doctrines are not always a waste of points. Adding demo doctrine to a melta vet squad in a chimera increases the point cost by less than a 20% increase. For that price increase the squad gains a demo charge and melta bombs. The melta bombs add a whole new level of threat if the vets embark in a vendetta instead. Against a mechanized opponent vets with melta bombs jumping out of a vendetta for a turn 1 assault are a serious threat if the IG player goes 1st, and it gives the opponent 3 ugly choices.

Choice #1: Allow IG to multi assault vehicles on turn 1 inflicting 10 autohits to the rear armor with melta bombs destroying multiple transports/vehicles or a high value target like a land raider or storm raven.

Choice #2: Bubble wrap vehicles with infantry so manticores can template both with the same blast.

Choice #3: Go full reserve and take a -1 to reserve rolls from an officer of the fleet.

I personally don't understand the whole 'vets in vendetta' tactic. Vendettas are awesome, and normally a high priority target for the enemy due to their firepower. Vets are an equally good unit. Why would you put a vet squad in a vendetta rather than in a chimera?

Vets in a chimera are a scoring box of melta/plasma-y goodness that can stay at range or go forward as need be and still be effective, all the while adding to you total armour saturation.

Vets in a vendetta reduce the total number of AV12 and concentrate a lot of points in a very high priority target. Bringing those three lascannons within melta range is not good for the vendetta, just so you can drop off some melta and hope to kill a single tank before getting vaporized in return. If you want a fast airborne threat, use valkyries, or better yet, use platoons and load a SWS in there.

Blacksails wrote:I personally don't understand the whole 'vets in vendetta' tactic. Vendettas are awesome, and normally a high priority target for the enemy due to their firepower. Vets are an equally good unit. Why would you put a vet squad in a vendetta rather than in a chimera?

Vets in a chimera are a scoring box of melta/plasma-y goodness that can stay at range or go forward as need be and still be effective, all the while adding to you total armour saturation.

Vets in a vendetta reduce the total number of AV12 and concentrate a lot of points in a very high priority target. Bringing those three lascannons within melta range is not good for the vendetta, just so you can drop off some melta and hope to kill a single tank before getting vaporized in return. If you want a fast airborne threat, use valkyries, or better yet, use platoons and load a SWS in there.

Vets go in a vendetta to give them a mechanized scout move when the IG player goes first. The vendetta scout moves 12" from a tank. On turn 1 the vets have a 2"+ base size disembark from the transport +6" move + 6" assault. It's often enough movement to multi assault clustered tanks. Since the tanks have not moved yet every hit is an auto hit. Every melta bomb does 2D6+8 on a pen so all 10 melta bombs will glance AV10 rear armor on snake eyes. A multi assault against 2 or 3 tanks or a single high value target such as a land raider or storm raven is enough of a threat that opponents will often center their deployment around negating the threat of being assaulted by melta vets, which is often highly advantageous to the rest of the IG army (Especially if they full reserve and IG has an officer of the fleet).

My vets always have a Chimera. The usual contents of a vendetta is a cheap squad like a quad flamer PCS or tri melta/flamer SWS, a hateful squad like a tri demo SWS, or sometimes even a quad melta CCS destined for suicide missions. Just because my vets have a Chimera doesn't prohibit them from boarding a vendetta. The original squad intended to be in the vendetta can't board the melta vet's Chimera during deployment, but can do so on turn 1. If the other side deploys in a way that it would no longer be worth it for the melta vets to assault a tank on turn 1 they can always use the vendetta's scout move to go next to their chimera, disembark, and then embark on IG's turn 1.

Got to try it out this weekend. While it did work out pretty well. The one thing that still stings with me is the price tag of the X3 plasma squad, demo and chimera..

I was thinking of dropping the plasma and throwing in 3 flamers..Now I know everyone cries about that cause its a "waste" of bs 4. But also giving the chimera a turret mounted heavy flamer.

Pull up..drop 3 flamers from the hatch.. Have the turret turn and drop its flamer..so thats 4 templates hitting a target..plus the demo charge...now the flamers wont deny armor from tough targets..but it will make them roll a lot of dice..and a few ones WILL show up. This will also make them great anti horde and also still a decent anti tank. 10 melta bombs would easily deal with a lot of really though armor.

This set up is also 30 pts cheaper...which I feel a lot better about.

Something about a chimera getting that close to anything doesn't seem like it would work very well.

(The whole, flames erupting out everywhere idea)

sfshilo wrote:Something about a chimera getting that close to anything doesn't seem like it would work very well.

(The whole, flames erupting out everywhere idea)

Running around solo yes. But I plan to have it matched up with a hellhound and a demolisher. I also always run power blobs and have a unit of rough riders about so it won't be totally alone on the front line.