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So apart from Deathwatch, can space marines be moved to other chapters? or must they just stay with their chapter for eternity?

Yes, they can.

You don't see it too often though, but the majority of the time it is when a new Chapter is established. Respected Captains, veteran Sergeants, and other "command" cadre individuals will sometimes be transferred to these new Chapters to form a solid core of leadership for the Chapter to be built around.

Don't think so. The only Adeptus that has been mentioned as allowing its member to switch between its sub-organizations are the Sororitas, and they were mentioned to be somewhat special because of this level of "freedom".

With the Space Marines, each Chapter has an identity of its own with a unique history, unique rituals, unique symbols and unique heroes. At times even unique battle tactics. Neither do I see a Space Marine wishing to leave his Chapter, nor do I see another Chapter simply accepting someone "not from their own" into their midsts just like that (though these odds are somewhat higher than the former).

I suppose exceptions could be made concerning Successor Chapters and their "paternal Chapter", but I've never heard of such a thing - at least not from GW.
With the Imperial Guard, regiment at least get merged together when they become too small due to combat losses. Space Marine Chapters on the other hand tend to throw themselves at the enemy in an attempt to go out with a boom.

Wasn't there some Chapter in the Armageddon War that did this sort of "valiant last stand" thing because they lost all their Apothecaries and geneseed or something, and were down to a score?

Kanluwen wrote:Yes, they can.

Really? Guess I missed something - what was the example?

There's been no exact examples. It's always been kinda/sorta hinted at. The most notable places are in the Deathwatch RPG.

Most notably, page 23 of "Rites of Battle" in the "Who are the Chapter's heroes?" section.

Ohhh, the Deathwatch RPG ...

Well, we all pick our own interpretation of the setting.

Yes, the difference is that the Deathwatch RPG and its writers have GW's approval.

As did Goto and his Multilaser Marines.

In my world, the Deathwatch will continue to belong to the Ordo Xenos and will keep the hell away from fleets of cloaked Exterminatus kill ships, whole legions of DW Marines and better guns than any Lord Inquisitor could hope to own.

After having read all the stuff in FFG's books, I don't have the highest opinion of how they handled organizational stuff. I love their location and character descriptions, and most of their rules, but some things were just a little too over the top and contradictory to what I'm used from studio material.

Not that this would mean anything. We all pick according to our personal preferences.

Lynata wrote:As did Goto and his Multilaser Marines.

No, he didn't. Goto was subject to no oversight, and was essentially writing in a vacuum.

In my world, the Deathwatch will continue to belong to the Ordo Xenos and will keep the hell away from fleets of cloaked Exterminatus kill ships, whole legions of DW Marines and better guns than any Lord Inquisitor could hope to own.

The Killships existed before Deathwatch.
The "legions of Deathwatch Marines" existed as well, just never really were explored.
The "better guns than any Lord Inquisitor could hope to own" has always been a hallmark of the Deathwatch as well.

First Founding and all the subsequent foundings would seem to indicate yes.

If by switching you mean a permanant move, then I would say that that doesn't happen. However certain individuals are 'loaned out' to other chapters for training, or to reinforce a certain deployment. For example Sergeant Telion often spends time training other chapter's scouts.

Should be noted that, in those cases, the reassigned command staff comes from the 'parent' chapter that the new chapter's gene-stock is drawn from. They want to keep the genetic lines pure from contamination.

Also worth noting that the Astral Claws took in marines from another chapter, but that would probably be considered... inappropriate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Yes, they can.

Really? Guess I missed something - what was the example?

Pretty sure that the 3E space marine codex, and possibly the old 'making of a space marine' WD article, mentions that a new chapter's command staff is drawn from its parent chapter. It makes a good bit of sense, in that you don't want your new Founding to be run by raw recruits, and the new command staff get to advance to ranks they wouldn't have been able to achieve in their old chapter.

Kanluwen wrote:No, he didn't. Goto was subject to no oversight, and was essentially writing in a vacuum.

And what brings you to this thought? According to the people who are actually writing this sort of stuff, there is little oversight in general. That's what has prompted so many contradictions throughout the material, and made several authors give corresponding comments on various blogs:
"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
- from Andy Hoare, who, at the time of that comment, was also involved with writing for FFG

In case you missed that bit, Alan Merret's foreword for the Deathwatch RPG even mentioned that FFG had different ideas than the studio team.

In rememberance of our Storm Trooper discussion, I can also show you a forum post on the FFG boards where one of their writers states that he doesn't care at all about the Codex numbers, or anything else he thinks of as "stupid" for that matter.
Much like what ADB already wrote on his blog concerning the novels he writes for the Black Library.

Kanluwen wrote:The Killships existed before Deathwatch.
The "legions of Deathwatch Marines" existed as well, just never really were explored.
The "better guns than any Lord Inquisitor could hope to own" has always been a hallmark of the Deathwatch as well.

And I'm saying Killships don't belong into a Marine Chapter's hands.

The Deathwatch was furthermore made out to appear pretty rare (comparatively) and certainly not large enough to boast a base in just about every sector of the IoM. This is simply FFG's own take on the 'verse again, just like its Deathwatch also recruits from any Marine Chapter (for maximum player freedom, no doubt) instead of being limited to Codex-loyal Chapters sharing similar combat doctrines as the GW articles in Chapter Approved 2003 and WD #305 suggest to be the norm. In the TT, Deathwatch used to be about small teams occasionally allying with other SM, IG or SoB. In FFG's RPG, the Deathwatch shows up with anything up to its own friggin' battle barges and armoured formations.

Lastly, in GW's version of the setting, the Deathwatch receives its guns from the Inquisition. Certainly this would mean that a powerful Inquisitor would thus be able to take one for himself.
FFG's RPG simply presents a radically different take on the weapons than the studio version, with a disparity between equipment that is not reflected (or outright contradicted) in GW material. Aside from a lot of other things they did differently.
Feel free to prefer it, just be aware of the differences.

Arturius wrote:Pretty sure that the 3E space marine codex, and possibly the old 'making of a space marine' WD article, mentions that a new chapter's command staff is drawn from its parent chapter. It makes a good bit of sense, in that you don't want your new Founding to be run by raw recruits, and the new command staff get to advance to ranks they wouldn't have been able to achieve in their old chapter.

Hmm, I have that one lying around somewhere from back when I started 40k with SM. Thanks for the hint! And yes, in this instance it does seem more plausible - a "freshly" founded Chapter likely will not have many traditions of its own (-> less conflict), and still share strong ties to their "paternal" Chapter.

thanks for the help guys. so lets say a marine had gone above and beyond the call of duty for another chapter. would that chapter reward him in anyway?

It is possibly, but unlikely. They would probably send some veterans to the newly established Chapter to teach the marines and to help the Chapter in battles. Or to help replenish the Chapter numbers, but I only see that things possible only in Chapters descended from their parent Legion ( example, Ultramarines sending 100 battle brothers to serve as Novamarines ).

I don't see Black Templar becoming an Ultramarine any time soon
Or better yet - Ultramarine becoming a Space Wolf.

orkoidSTD wrote:so lets say a marine had gone above and beyond the call of duty for another chapter. would that chapter reward him in anyway?

Now, this is just an idea off the top of my head, but possible rewards - if he did something real big - might include a weapon or another (small) piece of wargear from the Chapter's armoury, or the inclusion of his name into the Chapter's roll of heroes. At the very least, his own Chapter would reward him for honorable display and representation in front of their brethren, as well as possibly laying the foundation of a better relationship between the two Chapters. His own Chapter's rewards could be anything from small honours to a promotion, depending on his usual conduct and the opinion of his superior(s).

Only time I have heard them switching was during the foundings and making the smaller chapter like bt, gk etc

Lynata wrote:

orkoidSTD wrote:so lets say a marine had gone above and beyond the call of duty for another chapter. would that chapter reward him in anyway?

Now, this is just an idea off the top of my head, but possible rewards - if he did something real big - might include a weapon or another (small) piece of wargear from the Chapter's armoury, or the inclusion of his name into the Chapter's roll of heroes. At the very least, his own Chapter would reward him for honorable display and representation in front of their brethren, as well as possibly laying the foundation of a better relationship between the two Chapters. His own Chapter's rewards could be anything from small honours to a promotion, depending on his usual conduct and the opinion of his superior(s).[/quote

this is interesting. Im trying to think how to fit Astartes into an Imperium-based MMORPG and im running into a few roadblocks on how the character would progress. Im trying to keep it as close to the lore as possible. So any help would be great

orkoidSTD wrote:this is interesting. Im trying to think how to fit Astartes into an Imperium-based MMORPG and im running into a few roadblocks on how the character would progress. Im trying to keep it as close to the lore as possible. So any help would be great

Well, an important thing to realize is that - as you may have noticed from that little discussion Kan and I had above - there isn't "one" lore in 40k, just lots of overlapping interpretations by the studio itself as well as the many authors of licensed books and computer games. Gav Thorpe wrote an interesting blogpost on that subject: http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/
So in the end, you don't have to take everything you read at face value, and in fact there are lots of contradictions throughout the available material.

But moving on, your question is an interesting topic to consider! I certainly see it possible that the Chapter is handing out rewards to its Space Marines, and on rare occasions even outsiders. A problem with MMOs is, however, that things tend to happen extremely fast. Something that should be a once-in-a-decade thing for a character becomes a routine that the player expects each time he hands in a quest.

Perhaps it would be better to detach oneself from the "established" system of handing in quests and expecting an item in return, and instead follow a more P&P-like approach? I may criticize the Deathwatch RPG a lot, but it did a number of things right - amongst them the option to requisition wargear. Basically, in that game, as you do your missions you begin collecting "Renown" points as some sort of representation of your reputation within the organization. With enough Renown, you can then requisition new and advanced wargear for your next mission. Converting this to MMO mechanics, you'd not get an item, but points with which you may later "purchase" said item.

To help bridge the gaps between these items (which would not get replaced as often as gear in most contemporary MMOs) I would suggest minor modifications to the stuff you have. A new targeter for your boltgun. A different type of ammunition. Purity seals and other decoration for your gear (which may even have an effect on the character's willpower or morale, helping him to resist certain things). Or small modifications to the player's equipment that are not even seen but confer some kind of bonus - like the mods and augmentations in BioWare's TOR, which you can use to upgrade the level of items you own in case you're fond of the looks.

Just an idea.

Lynata wrote:

orkoidSTD wrote:so lets say a marine had gone above and beyond the call of duty for another chapter. would that chapter reward him in anyway?

Now, this is just an idea off the top of my head, but possible rewards - if he did something real big - might include a weapon or another (small) piece of wargear from the Chapter's armoury, or the inclusion of his name into the Chapter's roll of heroes.

As I recall there was a short piece on this in an old White Dwarf - two companies from two Chapters working closely together in the same campaign. They actually merged some squads when there were casualties, adopted the same campaign badge and exchanged tokens of respect with each other in the form of swapping a piece of armor or such with a brother marine.

Merging squads only for the duration of the campaign, I presume?

But yeah, the "swapping pieces of wargear" stuff sounds very fitting. From one warrior to another, so to say. A bond of honour and mutual respect.

There could also just be honorifics, medals, permission to paint iconography on one's armor. As long as a chapter has honors (aside from rank) to grant, they could conceivably grant them to an outsider.

Don't related chapters sometimes give each other recruits? So, someone transformed and given a little training as a Flesh Tearer might find himself eventually passed along to the Blood Angels. It doesn't seem impossible that other chapters might have similar relationships.

I think that the Space Marines are intended to be pretty tribal and unreliable - that's why I can play my Blood Angels against someone else's Grey Knights, for example. They're also viewed as unreliable and a little crazy by the rest of the Imperium, which is why I can play my Space Marines against Jon's Imperial Guard or someone's Sororitas.

That said, I can these relationships cropping up. Perhaps some cadets are traded back and forth to settle scores, end grudges and help failing chapters to avoid extinction.

"Trading recruits" on some regular basis really sounds like too much, though this is just my opinion. In case of the Flesh Tearers, for example, it would lead to Chapter Master Seth's dirty little secret being exposed.
Well, okay, in his case it's too late now, anyways. But you get my drift.

I suppose if someone really wanted that, they could present it as a special trait for their Chapter. I'm just thinking that the Astartes are thinking of themselves as belonging to their Chapter first and foremost, and to the Space Marines as a whole only secondary, after a long gap. Considering that various Chapters even have violent feuds going on...

In the end, this is - as always - something everybody would have to decide for himself.

Lynata: Up top were you referring to the Celestial Lions? Good example of what really happens when SMs feth with the Big =][=. One of the more engaging bits of SM lore IMO (more genuine Tragedy than in all the dire HH novels put together).

OrkoidSTD: I'd imagine that SMs are extremely cagey about their Chapters' dark little secrets and symptoms of their degenerating geneseeds (which will equate to weakness, and lots more complicated things in terms of their relationships to their Primarchs), plus the inevitable little things that their Chapters do which don't strictly adhere to the CA.

If it's swapping about with Successor Chapters then it's kept all in the family, but there will be barriers put up between different-lineage Chapters.

Don't know much about MMORPGs but gaining influence points with different factions should be useful... maybe if your SMs are going walkabout on their own to atone for transgressions or whatnot? For all their faults, one thing you can say for most SMs is that when they use Honour and Debt they really do slap that capital letter on there and don't eff about! If they call you 'an Honourary x' then they mean it, will add your deeds to their Chapter's Saga, and if they consider that they owe you a martial Debt then there's nothing in the material or immaterial realms that will stop them from repaying it! So yeah, they'll top up the character's magazines and service his armour from time to time but the main thing is if the character gets in trouble way over his head then he has that Chapter to draw upon (once, probably).

So your IF won't get a blue Plasma Pistol with a white 'U' on it but will get a sliver of 'parchment' detailing his deeds for the UMs with UM seal of a ranking officer (higher the better), to attach to his armour; which is an elegantly worded IOU and incredibly powerful (though subtle) symbol of Honour.

That's how I'm dealing with such things in my story anyway (trying to make SMs likeable and interesting).

tsz52 wrote:Lynata: Up top were you referring to the Celestial Lions?

With what exactly? I'm sorry, I'm at a loss - maybe it's just too late already.

Celestial Lions doesn't even ring a bell, though I'm sure I have read that name somewhere. If nothing else, you've given me something to read up on!

tsz52 wrote:Don't know much about MMORPGs but gaining influence points with different factions should be useful...

That sounds pretty cool, too. But how about if you don't collect influence with factions, you collect influence with individuals! And then use it to unlock more important (and rewarding) missions, special gear which can be requisitioned by the various NPCs, or maybe even their support in the field. Such as an ability to summon a Land Speeder that swoops by, unleashing a hail of bolter shells on your target. Or a small squad of "junior" Marines that stick around for a minute and provide assistance. That sort of stuff.
And maybe when you get killed, you can either get reanimated by an NPC Apothecary in the field (cooldown ability) or spawn back at the Monastery (fallback)? And with influence points at the Chief Apothecary, the cooldown of field rescuscitation gets reduced?

Lynata: This up top:-

Lynata wrote:Space Marine Chapters on the other hand tend to throw themselves at the enemy in an attempt to go out with a boom.

Wasn't there some Chapter in the Armageddon War that did this sort of "valiant last stand" thing because they lost all their Apothecaries and geneseed or something, and were down to a score?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Celestial_Lions

I just find it interesting in view of the endless 'SW moon the Inquisition and totally get away with it (being SMs; as is only right and proper)' threads, especially with the similarities in words:-

Celestial - of Space;

Lions, major pack predators like... Wolves....

But that's probably just me.

tsz52 wrote:Lynata: This up top:

Oooh! Yeah, that was probably it - though I think I was mixing this up. I know I've read somewhere about a Chapter that joined a battlezone with the specific intent to die there because it has become so small... but maybe that was another incident entirely.

Still, the Celestial Lions serve as an example just as well.

Lynata wrote:I just find it interesting in view of the endless 'SW moon the Inquisition and totally get away with it (being SMs; as is only right and proper)' threads

Yeah, the Wolves are pretty much the "odd one out" when it comes to Marines in general. Not adhering to any rules (both in-universe as well as OOC) and being so special and awesome that it begs the question why they didn't conquer the Eye of Terra yet... I for one simply try to dismiss them from my attention as best as possible; makes the setting look a lot more consistent that way.

Interesting catch on the names, by the way!

And sheesh, that Inquisitor was a dick. Bombarding a world is one thing, but bombarding it after winning ground combat is just trolling.

I know they loan some guys out like Telion(although that could be a contrived way to give you a quick reason why he can be put in any force)
Also when did the SW moon the inquisition...I should read some of their books.

Funny enough the Wolves still manage to request and receive support from the Inquisition when needed. Because everybody knows the Ordo Malleus totally doesn't hold a grudge.

Wait. I jusr read. Some successer chapter do give initiates to the founding chapters. So yeah i think so.