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I have heard a story from various people in the last few months that Luther's fallen Dark Angels are in fact loyalists who fled the Renegades.
And that Renegades are now trying to hunt them all down to keep their big secret of serving Chaos and striking the Imperium in back when the final battle arrives.

Sounds crazy, and people are pointing to the Lion for evidence, for waiting to see how Heresy would seem to end before choosing side to join. And the fact that one of the Fallen Angels is carrying the Lion's blade to Terra to try to tell the truth about Dark Angels and how they in fact - serve Chaos now.

What are your opinions on this story, I think that is total .

Everything in your post except asking for opinions is internet fan-spank.

There's zero evidence for it in any background material.

Interesting theory.................

Yeah, I dont buy it.

What I never got about guys like Cypher/the Fallen is if they aren't CSM who have made daemonic pacts and reside in the Eye of Terror, how have they lived 10,000 years. They aren't like Alpha Legion who create/clone new troops, and it seems like all the Fallen are the original ones all those years ago on caliban.

iirc when the fallen where wisked away from from caliban they were scattered across time, so when they pop out on some random planet 10000 years later they were in the heresy yesterday from their perspective.

There seemed to be a lot of crossed wires in the backstory of the Dark Angels. Perhaps both sides are loyal, and both think that the other betrayed the greater goal.

As much as I like the idea of the Fallen being the true loyalists and the Dark Angels living a lie for 10,000 years, it doesn't have enough evidence.

If you go to Lexicanum you can see all the various important people in the Fallen Angels story. A chapter master at the time has the most evidence, and that's where the idea of the Lion waiting out the seige of Terra came from. But other marines have stories that clearly show that they are corrupted by chaos.

There is however, a heck of a lot more evidence that the Fallen are in fact chaos supporters. Remember that the Lion is supposedly being kept in stasis in the Rock, kept alive by the Watchers in the Dark. They are, based on my interpretations, entities opposed to chaos. Why would they be healing the Lion if he was evil?

What are the chances that every chapter master since the Lion fell would suddenly choose to keep the chapter traitor-under-cover instead of staying loyal to the emperor.

The reason why only the Deathwing know of the incident is because they don't want it to get out to the rest of the imperium that they had traitors in their ranks. I cannot tell whether this is evidence for or against the idea the Fallen are loyalist. It could go either way.

The Dark Angels were present at Abbadon's 13th Black Crusade. What better time to show their true colors than then if they really were traitors?

The Fallen were also all sucked up into the warp by chaos after it was clear they had lost the battle on Caliban, basically in an act of forcing their army into retreat.

But I digress. GW has stated that the Dark Angels are loyalists and they hunt the fallen to erase this blemish on their record of service the Emperor.

Angels of Darkness (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Angels-Darkness-Warhammer-40-000/dp/1844166554/ref=sr_1_19?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327960149&sr=1-19) features the idea that the Fallen are actually the loyalists though that bit of the story is told from the perspective of one of the fallen.

Interestingly some bits of the HH books featuring the Dark Angels could be pointing towards this since it wasn't the Calabanites upto shenanigans in the new hives being built under instruction from the administratum.

You might want to reread "Fallen Angels".

The Administratum was not "instructing" the people getting up to shenanigans in the new hive buildings. They were Terrans, certainly, but not acting under orders of any kind.

There have occasionally been suggestions that some Fallen are loyal still, however, if some are, it certainly isn't all of them.

It is, and forever will be, a mystery.

Why does Cypher carry the broken sword of Lion? Why is he off to Terra? Why is there an entire Chapter dedicated to tracking him down?

"I know not whether Cypher is the greatest threat, or the greatest hope for the Imperium. I only pray we can stop him before we find out."

Why did someone say that?

These are a few of the many questions that will remain unanswered.

SPOILER:


Didn't the ending of Angels of Darkness give the idea of the Fallen Angels being actual loyalist more credit as after the chaplain made Astellan tell his side of the story and at the end of the book, he sent a final message back to rock stating "He was right"

"Angels of Darkness" is an older piece, and Astelan was a member of the Fallen.

Yes it's a story based on the perspective of a fallen who willingly gave himself up without a fight when he found out it was his own legion who came knocking at his doorstep.

and i'm confused, if it's an older piece, we shouldn't consider it as canon anymore?

It was written before the Horus Heresy was beginning to be fleshed out, so yeah--it shouldn't really be considered "as canon" as the HH stuff.

I don't think we're ever going to know the "truth." The Dark Angels don't have a lot left to distinguish them, mechanically, but being a chapter riven by conspiracy and shame is the main thing that distinguishes them narratively.

Viersche wrote:and i'm confused, if it's an older piece, we shouldn't consider it as canon anymore?

It's as 'canon' as any other BL book.

The point is though that it's a story that is being told from the point of view of one of the Fallen... so not really the most trustworthy source.

insaniak wrote:
The point is though that it's a story that is being told from the point of view of one of the Fallen... so not really the most trustworthy source.

As pointed out by the author, incidentally.

i know he's one of the fallen and not really the most trusted guy out there when it comes to dark angels, what i was pointing out though was that final message the chaplain sent back to the rock saying "you were right", did he find out the truth of what happened at the end of the novel and sent the final message for astellan to know he knew the truth? there wasn't any follow up to the novel so it kind of ended in a cliffhanger

I feel as if the fallen in general aren't loyalists, it's just that there are a few that rebelled for different reasons and can be considered "loyalist" in a way.

Loyalist in the way they were loyal to the crusade and were taken advantaged of.


But the majority... (99%)
nope, not loyalist

DarknessEternal wrote:Everything in your post except asking for opinions is internet fan-spank.

There's zero evidence for it in any background material.

I would say you are wrong because there is an old 3rd edition of white dwarf that would beg to differ with you it has a heroes and villeins section in it devoted to Cypher and his fallen. And it basically says the same as Coa wrote below.

Brother Coa wrote:I have heard a story from various people in the last few months that Luther's fallen Dark Angels are in fact loyalists who fled the Renegades.
And that Renegades are now trying to hunt them all down to keep their big secret of serving Chaos and striking the Imperium in back when the final battle arrives.

Sounds crazy, and people are pointing to the Lion for evidence, for waiting to see how Heresy would seem to end before choosing side to join. And the fact that one of the Fallen Angels is carrying the Lion's blade to Terra to try to tell the truth about Dark Angels and how they in fact - serve Chaos now.

I will look for it later to give you the issue number it also has the rules to add him into your army

Viersche wrote:i know he's one of the fallen and not really the most trusted guy out there when it comes to dark angels, what i was pointing out though was that final message the chaplain sent back to the rock saying "you were right", did he find out the truth of what happened at the end of the novel and sent the final message for astellan to know he knew the truth?

The chaplain told the rest of his marines what Astellan "was right" about just paragraphs before this statement. He meant that the Dark Angels paranoia was consuming them.

Im a Fan of the Cypher redemption theory, would love to see that happen. i really like the idea of the watchers being Chaos and that the reason Luther will only repent to the Lion himself is that the watchers have the sleeping Primarch prisoner and luther saw chaos assume control of the Darkangels in the final battle and the whole making it look like they lost is just a cunning ruse. and they hiding waiting for the next step.

Thread is being locked due to thread necromancy.