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Mad Dok Grotsnik confers fearless and FNP and something akin to rage (even applies when in a transport). He also allows any unit to take cybork bodies for only 5pts and get a 5++. How viable is he in a competitive list?

at 2000k pts:
Battlewagon w/deffrolla, armour, big shoota, boarding plank 130pts
Big Mek w/KFF 95pts
18 slugga choppa boyz 108pts
1 nob w/pk, bp, cybork 51pts

Battlewagon w/deffrolla, armour, big shoota 125pts
Mad Dok Grotsnik 160pts
19 slugga choppa boyz 114pts

Battlewagon w/deffrolla, armour, big shoota, boarding plank 130pts
3 Meganobz, 1 w/Kombi-Rokkit, 1 w/Kombi-Skorcha, all cybork 145pts

26 shoota boys, 3 BS, 1 Nob w/pk, bp, cybork 240pts
26 shoota boys, 3 BS, 1 Nob w/pk, bp, cybork 240pts
10 Lootas 150pts
10 Lootas 150pts
Deffkopta w/ TL Rokkit, buzzsaw, cybork 75pts
Deffkopta w/ TL Rokkit, buzzsaw, cybork 75pts
1978pts (22 to spare)

The Big Mek would be in the center BW with boyz and Nob and flanked on each side by the Meganobz and boyz w/Mad Dok. Two full units of shoota boys footslog it behind them to lay down dakka and provide a counter punch. The Lootas and Deffkoptas pop light transports while the Deffrolla & boarding planks take on the heavier AV.

I would like to get more Meganobz in to take advantage of Mad Dok's cybork upgrades, but I can't fit them in without sacrificing scoring units (already bare-bones at 3 units) or dropping the KFF to take a warboss instead.

Taking this list on its own merits, what do you think?

I love the dok and run him all the time. Lots of people don't like his rule, and it can be limiting because sometimes you want to send him one way or have his group sit still-and he won't. I can see why people don't like him because he really changes the way alot of lists work, and basically makes one unit somewhat uncontrollable. That being said he works well in any unit that is going to charge into combat. his unit is basically uncapable of holding objectives. He can be kited, but honestly I have never had it be an issue if you deploy properly.

Heres what I have found:

In a foot slog army group the dok with 30 boyz uncyborked or 20 boyz +Cybork. Deploy them close to the edge or dead center in spearhead. By putting a unit right next to him and by using the table edge you have now "funneled" him and have some control over where he moves. The dok should be at THE BACK of the pack not the front. Put your PK nob at the front. the reason is to keep the dok out of combat first turn. This seems odd, but remember he is an IC and what you really want is for him to not die and to confer FNP. 20 boyz cyborked w FNP is a friggin nightmare to deal with-just don't let the Dok die.

Cybork on defkoptas is a waste they will still die. Deffkoptas have a decent synergy with the dok when they are used as outflank/interceptors. If he is being kited the defkoptas are your friend-but you can't alpha strike with them-use them as interceptors. I recommend only TLR and no saw. Personally I have started using buggies instead to screen his open flank.

The one big bonus with the dok is meganobz. Cybork them and bring them.
Despite the gripes, sloggin meganobz work well imo especially in a kan wall. 5 of them up front next to your Kans allows you to add a BP to your KFF and join him to the nobs. They also offer some great target saturation and deal with pesky things like scarabs that try to nom nom your kans. meganobs keep up with Kans just fine and bring some extra flamers to the mix.

For meganobs use 5: 2 Stock,2 combi flame, one combi rokkit. This gives you 3 wound groups to allocate to. Put a deffdread next to them for even more choppy flamey goodness and target sturation. Your opponent now has to decided wether to shoot av11+kff, av12+kff ,or big yellow power klaws at ap2+5+ invul. 9 Kans + 1 Deffdread+5 meganobs = 17 power klaws on the front line-good luck, and go ahead and take the klaws off the Kans I have 5 meganobz right behind them.

I deploy them like this:

| Buggies Kans Kans
| Boyz Nobs BM Dred
| Dok Kans
Lootas/Kannons


You can't kite this and would be pretty dumb to get close to it. Buggies get out of the way and the boyz run forward with tons of long range support. Grots or Boyz in trukk reserves grab objectives.


Now in battlewagons, I recommend putting the dok w the meganobz for a few reasons.
1.The meganobz can't score and the dok can't sit still.
2. Gives your boyz freedom to move where needed.
3. Besides drive at something really fast and assault it, what else were the doc and meganobz going to do? Perfect! And now the meganobz have FNP.
4. Meganobz have no BP/leadership issues. The dok solves this problem and even if you take combat wounds who cares.

That's my 5 cents. Have fun w the doc. Is he cutting edge competitive? Prolly not, but neither am I. Is he fun and somewhat competitive? Yes he brings some uique twists to the orks and I have played him against competitive lists and he does fine. I recently played a guy that has been competitive for 10 years and he played his tourney necrons against a deployment similar to what I showed you and he beat me 2-1 on objectives but he told me it was the best anyone had done vs his list and was quite impressed. I have been playing for ~5 months so I took it as a nice compliment.

I have to agree. While many on the internet scoff at the Dok, I enjoy running him. I usually only run him in a green tide list. The reason being is I put him up front with 30 'ard boyz. They act as a screen. The remaining hordes (at 2000 points, should be at least 3-4 more squads of 30 boyz) are behind him getting covers saves. Behind them are the loots laying down cover fire. With whatever leftover points, I usually throw in some kannons for some semblance of anti-tank.

With the dok up front and 90-140 boyz behind him, there is literally NO SPACE for your opponent except for directly in front of you. And hey, what a coincidence, that is exactly the direction you want the Dok and his raving mad 'ard boyz to go. Now, some may scoff and say 'ard boyz and Dok are too expensive and I would agree, this is a pricey unit. But, it is a unit that the average player struggles to kill. Yes, it can be done, but most people have a "orks get no save" mentality. throw in a 4+ with FNP and now they have to really dedicate some firepower to dealing with it (along with frustrating people when your orks just won't die as quickly as they had hoped). I am not saying they are indestructable, but they will last a good while.

On the flip side, if they ignore this unit, all the boyz behind them now get cover saves. So, for the more brazen players, this means you can actually run a list without a Big Mek with a KFF. Yes, I know this is ork heresy. But, I write lists to have fun and try new things. One of my favorite lists was to add Ol' Zogwort to the Dok's unit or a Big Mek with a SAG for more covering fire.

Ol' Zogwort is a very underated character IMHO. He is an absolute beast in CC. Yes, his warphead powers are unpredictable, but for the most part they are manageable. My biggest complaint with him is he is fragile with only a 6+ armor save. Give him a 5+ cybork (again, heresy giving a Snake Bite ork cybork, but deal with it) and add FNP and all of a sudden, he gets pretty mean.

The SAG is another underated ork weapon. While many scoff at its unreliability, it is a large blast AP2 weapon that averages S7. While I initially thought it should be an anti-tank weapon, I usually now focus it on terminators and marines. It is EXTREMELY satisfying watching marines die without a save (considering that is what normally happens to your orks). The randomness of the gun just adds a sense of flavor that makes the game fun.

I dropped the KFF Mek in my army for Ghaz, and took meganobz in a battlewagon with Grotsnik. Works quite well, and the meganobz often make their points back and then some.

EDIT- regarding Zogwort, it's cheese, but I'm fairly sure you can designate use of his curse every turn in place of using his Warphead powers if you want. It doesn't say that a character needs to be in range to use it, just for it to work. You might be seen as TFG though.

I have had luck running 9 Meganobz with Grottsnik
The problem with the Big Mek and KFF it only applies to shooting. I always try to keep him in a Battlewagon with a squad of 15 Burnas - give him a burna - hell I killed a squad of Termies with the sheer volume of saves he had to make. I like Mad Doc with Meganobz 9 in a battle wagon with him. I try to run 1-2 squads of meganobz, 2 squads of 10-15 burnas, mad doc, Big Mek all in Battle wagons, and 2 squads of boyz in trukks (ran behind the battle wagons, but in a block to give them all the big mek's save.... I love this formation. In huge battles I have run Deffkoptas or Stormboyz or bikes. It usually ends up being a small ork list but I think more surviveable than regular ork mobz and like I said I will take 1 boy with a 5+inv over 2-3 without that will get flamered or powerweaponed to death, at least they have their invuln. This is my opinion though.

wormark wrote:Mad Dok Grotsnik confers fearless and FNP and something akin to rage (even applies when in a transport). He also allows any unit to take cybork bodies for only 5pts and get a 5++. How viable is he in a competitive list?

Taking this list on its own merits, what do you think?

Quite simply, he's not viable, which is why he isn't taken.

Now, he CAN be used effectively, and you can make good use of his specialty, but that doesn't make him competitive. Quite frankly, nothing quite beats the staying power of an 85 point KFF when you're looking for point efficiency, and that's what being competitive is.

I agree that the Big Mek is a must, but I haven't quite figured out an optimal 2nd HQ. Unless I really start pumping out BW (4+), I don't see the value in a 2nd one). The issue seems to be that Meganobz w/cybork are what really makes Dok interesting, but they aren't scoring. Taking anymore than 1 unit qould force me to give up spots I would use to take Lootas. His FNP and Fearless are the other great asset, otherwise he's just a Warboss w/ -1S and -1I.

I thought of trying to take him with Snikrot. Kommandos w/FNP would be very useful and when I come in I can dictate exactly where to go and just assault anyways. Snikrot can't take a BP, so this would help there. On the charge, they would have 5 S9 PK attacks, 6 S6 (w/reroll to hit) attacks, and 6 S4 power attacks plus 4xnum of other kommandos.

cant give zogwort cybork, due to him being a unique character

its in the faq

Zogwort and Wazdakka don't come with cybork and are listed as unique in their profile, so you definitely can't take it with them. Ghaz and the Dok already have it.

It doesn't specify if the other Ork characters can take it. Zagstruk already has it and Badrukk has an equivalent, so it is only a question for Snikrot, who could definitely use it.

Nowhere does it list Snikrot as a unique character. You are limited to using him once per mob, but never specifies that he is unique, although it does for the HQ choices.

ORK CODEX pg 96: Da Big Dok: "Any unit in an army including Grotsnik may upgrade it's members to have cybork bodies for +5 points a model."

ORK FAQ, pg 4: Q. How many units in an army with Mad Dok Grotsnik can be upgraded to have cybork bodies? Are there any restrictions (apart from non-vehicle) or can it even be Gretchin or Independent Characters? (p59)
A. Any number of units can be upgraded. This includes Gretchin (Super-Gretchin! Cool conversions, but a bit expensive at 8 pts per model!) and Independent Characters (except for unique characters), effectively giving them a 5 pt discount on the cybork body upgrade.

wormark wrote:18 slugga choppa boyz 108pts
1 nob w/pk, bp, cybork 51pts

The whole unit has to get Cybork, not just select models.

wormark wrote:it is only a question for Snikrot

Snikrot is not a unique Independent Character, but just a unique Character, so he can gain Cybork.

People say the Doc is hard to play because of his randomness. He is not random at all though. He will always do exactly what you expect him to do. Just plan knowing that he will chase after that empty rhino in the corner all game and you will be fine.

wormark wrote:I agree that the Big Mek is a must, but I haven't quite figured out an optimal 2nd HQ. Unless I really start pumping out BW (4+), I don't see the value in a 2nd one).

I agree wholeheartedly. I haven't had a need for a 2nd KFF with only 3 wagons. At 4+, you really DO need the 2nd one though, if you are going to keep your cover save for all.