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Personal theory on the big E’s plans for his son’s I think each one was designed for a purpose after the crusade. Even if there character has been warped by Caos .

Lion El’ Jonson = leader of the imperial army over all (not navie or Astartes just thought I'd klear that up)

Fulgrim = in charge of art and culture (all parts of society need a degree of control)

Perturabo = siege craft

Jaghatai Khan = leader of the naïve

Leman Russ = executioner

Rogal Dorn = building the imperium’s defences

Konrad Curze = judge and lore righter (sent by the Caos gods to a place where the only punishment was death)

Sanguinius = politician ( the lighter side, getting goveners to work together)

Ferrus Manus = the Omnissiah (really look at the history it makes so much sense.)

Angron = close quarter action and ship bording possibly a leader of the Astartes (screwed up by neural implants.)

Roboute Guiliman = Administratum (search your feelings you know it to be true)

Mortarion = intergalactic travel (defence of the distant and spars borders of the imperium)

Magnus the Red = to sit on the golden throne and head the Adeptus Astra Telepathica

Horus = politician (the darker side back doer dealings so on)

Lorgar = the chief orator and trusted with upholding the imperial truth (sent to a highly religious world Vue’s twisted to see gods everywhere)

Vulkan = technology at the front lines securing it, and adapting it with little time or resources.

Corax = guerrilla warfare and leading the Astartes

Alpharius/ Omegon = spy masters leaders of what would instead be the inquisition.

sorry about the spelling

Horus would be a much better overall leader of the Imperial Army then Lion El'Johnson.

leading from that high up is more about administrating tackticks then peopel skills.

Horus put to much enfisis on destroying the enimy leadershipe the spear thrust being described as his go to tacktick
lion El' Johson maine feture is his tactikal ability and detachment (witch lead to his down fall).

This theory comes up every few weeks. The inherent logical flaw with it is that all the published background makes it clear that the Primarchs' characters were formed principally by the worlds on which they grew to adulthood.

My theory is that the Primarchs' Characters were mostly condensed by the worlds on witch thay grew. the caos gods couldn't remove there abiletys so put them places that thay wouldent need any thing elece so didn't develop new skills. also why thay had such extreem pursinalitys.

Why thay seem to act like pecherlant children somtimes


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if this theory is corect could shed light on the missing primachs perhaps an expert in medical and genetic resurch.

Time after time, the background material tells us the Primarchs were created to conquer the galaxy by force.

End of sentence.

They developed differently based on their genetic and sociological differences that would have made them more adept at certain roles than others. The Emperor, being at least a little smart, probably figured out where each one could be pretty useful later on, just like people on the internet do for them.

Why is khan the leader of the naive?
My white scars army wishs to speak to you

They all exist to do two things; kick ass, and chew bubblegum. Unfortunately the Imperium is fresh out of bubblegum

if all thay where ment to do was kick ass why are thay so diferant? why have one inhabate two bodys (Alpherus)?

look at furrus manus history then ask yourselves what would happen if he had been sent to mars.

Yeah, I have to agree that the Emperor didnt create the Primarch's with such roles in mind. Sure, as they developed they gained abilities and skills that would have suited them to certain roles, but I dont think that was part of a grand designed. Except for Magnus maybe?

TheAngrySquig wrote:They all exist to do two things; kick ass, and chew bubblegum. Unfortunately the Imperium is fresh out of bubblegum

This made me laugh.

khan is the leader of the naive as the hit and run tacktics lightning strick raides are the closes land iquvilant of (space) naivil battels.
Posibly put on a ferril world to stop him getting to teck savy.

your white scarse can say what thay like but im giving them the bigest guns in the imperium

i admit this is the looses fit but if you have a better place in the overall skeem pleas say. i was hoping to modify the list with some dibate of corce.


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Yeah, I have to agree that the Emperor didnt create the Primarch's with such roles in mind. Sure, as they developed they gained abilities and skills that would have suited them to certain roles, but I dont think that was part of a grand designed. Except for Magnus maybe?

in the horus hersy books it states that the big E forsaw events up to the herisiy. even the space marins were realising that at the rate thay were going the war was comming to an end. shower there would be small revolts and incurshons on to imperial space. But no need for the legons to exesit as they did*.

What do you do with you millions strong army of super soljers after the war?
1) put them to work (it has to be somting they like somthing thay have a naturel disposition for ).

2) face a revilotion

ok the plan sucked in not telling the legions there was anoveral plan for them but no ones purfect
if the big E expliand what he was thinking there wouldnt be time to do it.

Coolyo294 wrote:Horus would be a much better overall leader of the Imperial Army then Lion El'Johnson.

That worked out great last time...!


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English Assassin wrote:This theory comes up every few weeks. The inherent logical flaw with it is that all the published background makes it clear that the Primarchs' characters were formed principally by the worlds on which they grew to adulthood.

Well, no, it's not that simple. It's stated with greater frequency in the new Heresy books that the Emperor had a plan. He crafted each Primarch and each Legion from parts of his own DNA and from the master strain he created. Russ and the Wolves were designed to be his executioners, for example. The Fists and Dorn were always designed to build his fortresses and defend his throne world.

Certainly, they were all shaped by the worlds they grew up on and the people they found (or in some cases, lack of people) but their innate abilities and strengths came through.

See Deliverance Lost for more info.

thanks for the love Miraclefish havent read Deliverance yet on my list though any thoughts on how the list should if it should be changed? maybe new clues i havent picked up on. the liste above was maide just after reading a thousend sons but hasent changed much sinse.

was expecting more fan boy hate from this both pleased and a littel disiponted by lack of

Learn to spell, please.

Please.

The Primarchs were shaped by their upbringing, nothing more. If the Lion was put on Prospero, I'm sure he would of been trained in sorcery and psychic powers...

Having read Deliverance Lost:



However, I don't think he designed them for the roles they are always assigned. I think that their upbringing shaped them at least as much as their genetic material. For example, what if Russ had landed on Chemos? Or Sanguinius on Angron's homeworld? Their roles were determined by their characters as they were when the Emperor found them, not some pre-determined plan.

Putting this through spell checker, just for you.

Trained yes but as prolific no. In the horus heresy novels it says each world was chosen by the caos gods. You have picked one of the better examples for your point however.
If the lion where brought up on Prospero he would have had a long and trying training. Would this not have meant his social skills would have been greatly improved instead on a world where martial prowess and distant leadership where important. Even being found by a leader of an up and coming leader so as to “inherit” a top position. No need to work up through the ranks no need to lurne how to read and judge people properly.

Would the lion have delved so deeply in to the psychic as Magnus would he have been detested so much by (some of) his brothers?



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If Sanginius had been taken to Desh’ea he would have been beheld as a wonder. Taken in by a noble (or high rider) family, Rather than the gladiator pit. Possibly stopped the slave games brought the world under sway and bowed the knee when his true farther showed up. (Don’t think the forces of Caos would like this.)


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Admittedly I don’t know much about Chemos but if Russ where there I don’t think it would have been good as his free spirit would have rebelled agents the system. The food shortage would probably have been solved by a much sparser population.


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But what if Sanguinius had been left on Baal secondus and raised by mutants to leads them to victory over the norms. Then papa shows up with the whole kill the mutant policy. (Awkward Sunday diners from then on.) And possibly another champion of caos.

TheAngrySquig wrote:They all exist to do two things; kick ass, and chew bubblegum. Unfortunately the Imperium is fresh out of bubblegum

Join Slaanesh and you'll have more bubblegum than you could ever dream of. Which is why Fulgrim isn't up to much lately.

Miraclefish wrote:

English Assassin wrote:This theory comes up every few weeks. The inherent logical flaw with it is that all the published background makes it clear that the Primarchs' characters were formed principally by the worlds on which they grew to adulthood.

Well, no, it's not that simple. It's stated with greater frequency in the new Heresy books that the Emperor had a plan. He crafted each Primarch and each Legion from parts of his own DNA and from the master strain he created. Russ and the Wolves were designed to be his executioners, for example. The Fists and Dorn were always designed to build his fortresses and defend his throne world.

Certainly, they were all shaped by the worlds they grew up on and the people they found (or in some cases, lack of people) but their innate abilities and strengths came through.

See Deliverance Lost for more info.

Deliverance Lost establishes that the Primarchs' genetics were not identical. It does not follow that they intended for particular purposes, much less that they were intended to occupy the niches in which they and their legions found themselves. How, logically, do you infer, for instance, that Russ, having some non-human DNA, was intended to be the Emperor's executioner? Corax in the same novel muses at length on how small differences in their similar upbringings - in his case friends and mentors to teach him morality, in Kurze's case nobody - made him and Night Haunter radically different individuals. The OP is seriously trying to argue that Kurze had a genetic disposition to dress up as a bat and fight crime, which makes very little sense.

The only other instances I can think of which allude to a supposed plan are the in-character speculations of Horus and Lorgar, both of whom had been misled by the Ruinous Powers, and both of whom were trying to justify their treachery as being somehow foreordained. Likewise, it is only the claim of the Chaos Gods that they directed the Primarchs to particular worlds, and they're not known for their scrupulous commitment to facts.

I think this is hard to really debate accurately because there are far too many missing variables, even if we ignore the genetic aspect of things.

For instance, yes the primarchs were heavily influenced by the worlds on which they were raised, but how did they come to be on those worlds in the first place? Scattered by Chaos, yet not just outright destroyed, or brought to daemon worlds to be raised as champions of the gods?

Second, they weren't just genetically engineered. If they were, the Emperor could've cloned them and made a hundred million copies to conquer the galaxy with. The primarchs were hand-crafted as evidenced in First Heretic.

Thus there's a good deal of warpcraft (i.e. magic, handwaving, smoke and mirrors, etc) that gets invoked here. Once the Chaos Gods scattered the primarchs, where their pods came to rest and who found them and raised them was not total chance. It must have been a tug-of-war between the Gods attempting to destroy or at least corrupt them, and the Emperor attempting to guide them safely through the warp. Similarly the nature and soul of the primarchs could have been constructed from the start more carefully than we might think. He wouldn't have said "Your name will be Konrad Curze and you will dress like a bat and run around at night strangling people!" but he very well could have crafted Curze's soul to be a black-and-white justice seeker, echoing part of his own psyche or filling a role he anticipated needing filled in his future empire.

To sum up: It's not just nature vs. nurture, it's nature vs. nurture vs. deus ex immaterium

Good point and I don’t deny it’s a possibility and if you like we can just stop talking about it….

Is he gone… Grate back to my point in a thousand sons it is described that Magnus was aware of his body being crafted around his soul. And in the first heretic it describes similar creation scenario.

I.e. the Big E crafted their souls first then there bodies (and DNA) around that kinder damages the nature verses nurture when the nature was designed then the personality fits a required roll.

I know this isn’t conclusive proof. I for one wouldn’t want it but when so Meany of the primarchs mutations fit or misfit the planet makes me wonder.

Sorry if deliverance blows all this out the water but if there’s even a smidge of doubt try entertaining the idea for a few hours not even thoroughly just let it wash over you?

scuba steave wrote:
If Sanginius had been taken to Desh’ea he would have been beheld as a wonder. Taken in by a noble (or high rider) family, Rather than the gladiator pit. Possibly stopped the slave games brought the world under sway and bowed the knee when his true farther showed up. (Don’t think the forces of Caos would like this.)

Admittedly I don’t know much about Chemos but if Russ where there I don’t think it would have been good as his free spirit would have rebelled agents the system. The food shortage would probably have been solved by a much sparser population.

But what if Sanguinius had been left on Baal secondus and raised by mutants to leads them to victory over the norms. Then papa shows up with the whole kill the mutant policy. (Awkward Sunday diners from then on.) And possibly another champion of caos.

This is my point though. What if Sanguinius got the psycho screws? What is Russ was the prreening dandy? We don't know how they would have turned out. We [could have been looking at the Sanguine Heresy, or the Dornian Heresy.

Or what he ( CalgarsPimpHand)said, same point realy.

But I think the reason they didn’t just send them all to demon worlds is because caos was playing to loses. So win by losing if you’re as confused as me by this read legion.

But all in all, a war would not have made the imperium in to the grim-dark place it is today. It needed to be an all-encompassing civil war that would make all who knew of it so paranoid that they would forever watch every only else as much as they got on with their job.



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This is my point though. What if Sanguinius got the psycho screws? What is Russ was the prreening dandy? We don't know how they would have turned out. We [could have been looking at the Sanguine Heresy, or the Dornian Heresy.

I can’t see them giving Sanguinius the psycho screws. They did it to angeron because of the dead elder because of way he turns out because of the psycho screws.

I also can’t see the loveable man dog being a “dandy” those teeth just aren’t pretty. We never know what the story would be but we can have a good stab at it. All the worlds that were chosen had a pit fall to lour them to caos. Quite a specific one for the Primarchs in question.

scuba steave wrote:
in the horus hersy books it states that the big E forsaw events up to the herisiy.

No it didn't. Not anywhere.

The Emperor is incredibly weak at precognition. It's really the only flaw he's ever been characterized with outside of his monstrous arrogance.


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scuba steave wrote:
But I think the reason they didn’t just send them all to demon worlds is because caos was playing to loses. So win by losing if you’re as confused as me by this read legion.

But this is absolutely true. Chaos one the Heresy. It was a slam-dunk victory for the forces of the Warp. Chaos Space Marines lost. There's an enormous difference.

Oh sorry thought it said that in Mechanicum when that person was linked to the E’s thoughts but that is wrong now I think about it. My bad Thanks for catching that.

But his plans where very far reaching I mean dark ages to grate crusade (void dragon) is a little more than 2 moves ahead

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:I think this is hard to really debate accurately because there are far too many missing variables, even if we ignore the genetic aspect of things.

Indeed, but the vast majority of the published background has been devoted to how the Primarchs' characters were shaped by the worlds on which they were raised. It is possible to conjecture otherwise, but for now, the most straightforward solution should be preferred.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

Spoiler:

partly using warp knowledge gleaned from the Chaos gods themselves

as evidenced in First Heretic.

Unless I misremember, No. The Chaos Gods claim this to be the case, but then it's in their interest to do so.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:...but he very well could have crafted Curze's soul to be a black-and-white justice seeker, echoing part of his own psyche or filling a role he anticipated needing filled in his future empire.

There's no positive evidence whatsoever for this contention, and plenty to contradict it, so why engage in hand-waving at all? Index Astartes' account of Curze's early life already provides all the motivation necessary for him to become a grim and gritty vigilante (with or without a bat fetish).

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:To sum up: It's not just nature vs. nurture, it's nature vs. nurture vs. deus ex immaterium

I would contend that the question is one of free will versus determinism. By and large, the only voices in the novels to advance the notion that the Primarchs' natures were predetermined are those striving to corrupt them, offering them the illusion of freedom from imaginary slavery to the Emperor, intending all along to make them disposable pawns of the Chaos Gods.

There's no positive evidence whatsoever for this contention, and plenty to contradict it, so why engage in hand-waving at all? Index Astartes' account of Curze's early life already provides all the motivation necessary for him to become a grim and gritty vigilante (with or without a bat fetish).

What about Horus sent to a hive world rife with crime but rather than going on a vigilantly rampage killing the ringleaders by himself. he used the gangs to rises to power and tack over a much easier and simpler unless konrad had the stupid gene

English Assassin wrote:

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:I think this is hard to really debate accurately because there are far too many missing variables, even if we ignore the genetic aspect of things.

Indeed, but the vast majority of the published background has been devoted to how the Primarchs' characters were shaped by the worlds on which they were raised. It is possible to conjecture otherwise, but for now, the most straightforward solution should be preferred.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

Spoiler:

partly using warp knowledge gleaned from the Chaos gods themselves

as evidenced in First Heretic.

Unless I misremember, No. The Chaos Gods claim this to be the case, but then it's in their interest to do so.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:...but he very well could have crafted Curze's soul to be a black-and-white justice seeker, echoing part of his own psyche or filling a role he anticipated needing filled in his future empire.

There's no positive evidence whatsoever for this contention, and plenty to contradict it, so why engage in hand-waving at all? Index Astartes' account of Curze's early life already provides all the motivation necessary for him to become a grim and gritty vigilante (with or without a bat fetish).

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:To sum up: It's not just nature vs. nurture, it's nature vs. nurture vs. deus ex immaterium

I would contend that the question is one of free will versus determinism. By and large, the only voices in the novels to advance the notion that the Primarchs' natures were predetermined are those striving to corrupt them, offering them the illusion of freedom from imaginary slavery to the Emperor, intending all along to make them disposable pawns of the Chaos Gods.

Excellent post with a lot of good points. You're right, I don't believe 100% in the predestined/aspects of the Emperor theory, but like I was trying to say, there isn't enough evidence to be conclusive about anything, and the "truth" is probably somewhere in between. Even the revelations which are made by agents of Chaos, unreliable as they are, could be true, or half true, but there's no way of proving it one way or another. There is definitely intentional mystery in the origins and nature of the primarchs that simple chance and genetics do not explain.

I'm not trying to do any hand-waving of my own, I'm trying to say, the hand-waving is built into the story. The primarchs were more than flesh and blood. They couldn't be duplicated. There's an element of irony in their creation, because as the ultimate crusaders for the Imperial Truth, the primarchs themselves were testament to the falsehood of it. They were beyond the Emperor's own science, one way or another, or else he could have just created more. They were literally woven through with warp energy, although how this was achieved we don't know. They were heavily influenced by the planets they grew up on, as Corax muses, yet those planets were not chosen at random (and he would have no way of knowing this), but we don't know exactly how they got there either. All through the story of the primarchs is an inherent tug-of-war between what the Emperor can control, and what Chaos can get away with tweaking to their advantage. Both sides were playing a long game, and the primarchs were pawns whether they realized it or not.

Fun discussion

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
Spoiler:
as evidenced in First Heretic.

Unless I misremember, No. The Chaos Gods claim this to be the case, but then it's in their interest to do so.

Apart from magnus who remembers things that back this up if not all the way then enough for our point to stick.

I kinda skimmed through so forgive me if someone already said this but it's possible not even the Emperor knew of the existence of Omegon just as no one outside of Alpha Legion knew. This one of the few things that have led me to believe that the Emperor made the Primarchs for no other real purpose than to assist him in the crusade and maybe act as lords, enforcers, and guardians of certain sectors of the galaxy once it was conquered with the Emperor being the Overlord.

scuba steave wrote:

This is my point though. What if Sanguinius got the psycho screws? What is Russ was the prreening dandy? We don't know how they would have turned out. We [could have been looking at the Sanguine Heresy, or the Dornian Heresy.

I can’t see them giving Sanguinius the psycho screws. They did it to angeron because of the dead elder because of way he turns out because of the psycho screws.

I also can’t see the loveable man dog being a “dandy” those teeth just aren’t pretty. We never know what the story would be but we can have a good stab at it. All the worlds that were chosen had a pit fall to lour them to caos. Quite a specific one for the Primarchs in question.

They gave Angron the implants to make him a better gladiator. Had Sanguinius landed on the planet, they would have done the same to him. Had Russ landed on Chemos and struggled to obtain any semblance of comfortable life for years, he might have gotten the same appreciation for it Fulgrim had. If Fulgrim had been raised by wolves, he could have become a psykers-are-evil-but-rune-priests-are-totally-different-I'm-not-listening kind of guy as well.