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OK I am commited to this list. In my limited experience, I think it has the opportunity to be a compettitve, all comer list, but I have some options when it comes to the nitty gritty. Basically it's a "True Tide." That is maxing ork boyz. And by the way I'm not talking "Gray Tide." These will all be painted to slightly above TTQ.

HQ:
BM w/ KFF x2

TROOPS:
Boyz x 26; Rokit Boyz x 3; Nob w/ PK and BP
Boyz x 26; Rokit Boyz x 3; Nob w/ PK and BP
Boyz x 26; Rokit Boyz x 3; Nob w/ PK and BP
Boyz x 26; Rokit Boyz x 3; Nob w/ PK and BP
Boyz x 26; Rokit Boyz x 3; Nob w/ PK and BP
Boyz x 26; Rokit Boyz x 3; Nob w/ PK and BP

That is 1670 points.

OPTION 1: to bring the total to 2495: Alpha Strike

FAST ATTACK:
Deffkoptas x 5 (3 w/ TLRL; 2 w/ TLRL and Buzz Saw)
Deffkoptas x 5 (3 w/ TLRL; 2 w/ TLRL and Buzz Saw)
Deffkoptas x 5 (3 w/ TLRL; 2 w/ TLRL and Buzz Saw)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

OPTION 2: to bring the total to 2490: Kan Wall w/ a sucker punch

FAST ATTACK:
Deffkoptas x 3 w/ TLRL
Deffkoptas x 3 w/ TLRL (yet to paint)
Deffkoptas x 3 w/ TLRL (yet to buy or paint)

HEAVY SUPPORT:
Killa Kans x 3 (1 w/ Rokit Launcha; 2 w/ Rokit Launchas and Grot Riggers x 2
Killa Kans x 3 (1 w/ Grotzooka; 2 w/ Grotzookas and Grot Riggers x 2
Killa Kans x 3 (1 w/ Skorcha; 2 w/ Skorchas and Grot Riggers x 2



Option 2 is closer to painting goal. FYI.

The second option is better, although I would drop a kopta or two to get at least one buzzsaw in each unit.

Either way, once your deffkoptas are down, you're going to get kited a bit. Pray for objective missions.

Option 2 seems good.

I would add some lootas instead fo the big deff koptas units though. In mye xperience, being able to shoot is good usually

I would agree. 2 units of 2 or 3 units of 1 are probably better for first strike capability than the big units.

Take the koptas to units of 1, and try to fit some lootas in their.

Taking the koptas down to 3 units of 1 pretty much immasculates them as an anti tank sucker punch. And again, I love lootas... don't get me wrong, but I seem to kill mo' betta' with koptas even though they don't live through the game like lootas. and running lootas are useless... (can't shoot as they bravely run away)/

DrG

doktor_g wrote:Taking the koptas down to 3 units of 1 pretty much immasculates them as an anti tank sucker punch. And again, I love lootas... don't get me wrong, but I seem to kill mo' betta' with koptas even though they don't live through the game like lootas. and running lootas are useless... (can't shoot as they bravely run away)/

DrG

The key to Koptas is either first turn Buzzsaw charge or outflank late game shoot and charge. I have never seen a lot of success with them as a unit. They have no invul or cover save and just die horribly to fire. Bikes or buggies are a better buy if you want shooty goodness.

doktor_g wrote:Taking the koptas down to 3 units of 1 pretty much immasculates them as an anti tank sucker punch. And again, I love lootas... don't get me wrong, but I seem to kill mo' betta' with koptas even though they don't live through the game like lootas. and running lootas are useless... (can't shoot as they bravely run away)/

DrG

then can i suggest you put them down to a 2 kopta per unit and put one pk per unit on them? That way, you can do wound allocation shenanigans, and 3 s7 on rear armor (that mgiht auto hit) will do more dmg than a bs2 TL-Rokkit.The probabilities of doing a ld test are the same (one unit down) but you have wound allocation possibilities. Gives you 60 points for extra upgrades and I've found 2 mand effkopta with one PK to be more effective vehicle crushers than 3 man koptas squad.

as it was mentionned by pretre, if you want 3 BS2 TL rokkit, buggies do a better job, no LD test, AV 10, so S4 weaponse have close to no chance of doing something good, cost 40 points instead fo 45 per model...

with the extra points, you could raise your boyz to units of 27 or 28 if you take my 1st option.


ALSO, I jsut noticed, don't put riggers on the kans, immobilised becomes wrecked in vehicle squadrons, that 5 points wasted on them...

Serder wrote:with the extra points, you could raise your boyz to units of 27 or 28 if you take my 1st option.

Boyz x 26; Rokit Boyz x 3; Nob w/ PK and BP: 26+3+1=30. These Mobz are already maxed out [insert winking orkmoticon here].

2 Big Meks with KFF
6 Mobs of 30 with 3 RL, PK and BP
9 Killa Kans with Rokkits
3 DeffKoptas with Buzzsaw and TL Rokkits

2500 on the nose.

Serder wrote:ALSO, I jsut noticed, don't put riggers on the kans, immobilised becomes wrecked in vehicle squadrons, that 5 points wasted on them...

Was about to make that point, and had to browse to see if it was caught. If you do, take only one, and allocate wounds so that it is the last surviving one to make use of them.

I would say option 2, with tweaks. Single suicide koptas would be better than squadrons. I'm not a big fan of the koptas period. If you just want rokkit spam, 105 points buys a squadron of rokkit buggies.

Add some lootas too, as already suggested. Starting them in cover on high ground is preferable, to shoot over the boyz.

Concerning the kanz again, I'm a bigger fan of big shootas than skorchas. You can take advantage of the BS3, and they can start shooting on turn 1, as opposed to skorcha kanz, which you don't want to run, as they will break away from the KFF.

Have to agree with the deffkopta suggestions. Bring them as singles. I have tried as so many people have, running deffkoptas in every configuration posssible. They are too expensive and still die horrible flamey deaths. There is really no good reason to bring more than 1 per FA slot. If you bring 5 and they kill 2 of them, say goodbye to the other 3.

I personally love lootas(which I have tried in every configuration possible too lol). There are lots of opinions on them, my personaly is that in 1000+ point games run 15 in one group. reason being is that their leadership improves greatly. You lose target selection vs a config like 5x5x5, but you will basically kill anything you shoot at. There is nothing more frustrating than pointing 5 lootas at a skimmer, rolling d1, and you get a shaken result. Then you have to do it again with the next 5-if they are in range. With 15 lootas, even if I roll a d1, that skimmer AV11 still has a 50% chance of being wrecked or exploding, a d2 gives me a 70% chance.

So I vote lootas. Another option though would be 6 kannons and 3 lobbas. Lots of shooty fun with those units.

With a true tide, I would really like to have lootas. Not sure but if I recall, 3 lootals = the cost of 1 deffkopta with TL rokkits and 1.67 for a buzzsaw.

If you reduce each deffkopta to a single, you should be able to add 2 groups of 14 lootas and 1 group of 13. That should give you an average of 82 S7 shots every turn while the tide advances.

Ya the second option is best. The first option just seem overloaded with koptas.

Ok... you people are right....
I just mathammered the following question:

Which is more likely to wreck / explode AV12, a full squad of lootas (15) or a full squad of koptas w/ TLML (5)?

I think I did it right but you may want to double check...
Lootas win at 55.5% over the Koptas at 37.04%

My math:
For the LOOTAS I presumed they all get two shots.
(#of Models)x(#of Shots)x(To Hit)x(To Pen AV12)x(To Wk/Ex)
(15)(2)(2/6)(1/6)(2/6)=0.555

For the KOPTAS:
(#of Models)*(To Hit+ReRoll)*(To Pen AV12)*(To Wk/Ex)
(5)((2/6+2/6))(2/6)(2/6)=0.3704

Now keep in mind that 1/3 of the time the Lootas only get 1 shot total prob = 28%. Conversely, if they get 3 shots the prob increases to 83%!!!

This means that 66% of the time, a full squad of LOOTAS will out shoot a full squadron of KOPTAS.

Keep in mind that there is a point cost difference though:
Koptas = 225... Lootas=270.

doktor_g wrote:Ok... you people are right....


Keep in mind that there is a point cost difference though:
Koptas = 225... Lootas=270.

Lootas are 15 points IIRc, so 15x15 is 225 not 270...

If you have to choose, go for lootas, not only do they last longer, but they can pour out more damage than the koptas. They also ahve the range (48''_ but not the mobility. The koptas are mostly onyl sued as alpha strike suicide mission or being annyoing late game by outflanking and tying up units.

doktor_g wrote:Ok... you people are right....
I just mathammered the following question:

Which is more likely to wreck / explode AV12, a full squad of lootas (15) or a full squad of koptas w/ TLML (5)?

I think I did it right but you may want to double check...
Lootas win at 55.5% over the Koptas at 37.04%

My math:
For the LOOTAS I presumed they all get two shots.
(#of Models)x(#of Shots)x(To Hit)x(To Pen AV12)x(To Wk/Ex)
(15)(2)(2/6)(1/6)(2/6)=0.555

For the KOPTAS:
(#of Models)*(To Hit+ReRoll)*(To Pen AV12)*(To Wk/Ex)
(5)((2/6+2/6))(2/6)(2/6)=0.3704

Now keep in mind that 1/3 of the time the Lootas only get 1 shot total prob = 28%. Conversely, if they get 3 shots the prob increases to 83%!!!

This means that 66% of the time, a full squad of LOOTAS will out shoot a full squadron of KOPTAS.

Keep in mind that there is a point cost difference though:
Koptas = 225... Lootas=270.

Math on the lootas is wrong.

15 lootas at 1 shot =

.333(bs) * .3333(chane of pen AV11-use .16 for av12) * .33333(chance of wreck or explode) = .037 (the chane one shot will wreck it)

so 1-.037 = 96 % chance of that not happening with 1 shot

so take the cahnce of it not happening and raise it to the power #ofshots

.96^X

so .96^15 = .54 chance of that not happening with a d1 15 loota shots

so 1-.54 = .46 chance of wrecking or exploding. So a d2 would = 70% chance.

Also 15 lootas =225 as mentioned.

And your 5 koptas
.333+(.666*.333) =.555 Twin link
.555 * .5 * .333 = .09 getting a wreck on av 11 w str 8
1-.09 = .91
.91^5 = .62 5 TLR
1-.62 =. 38
5 koptas w TLR = 38% chance to wreck vs av11

So it's a no brainer at thsi point, 225 for a maximum 38% chance. Or 225 for a pack of lootas that have minimum 46% and max 85% chance.

I'd go with the lootas, personally. What breakdown between shootas and sluggas?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, for cheap threats, consider kannon batteries. 60 points for 3 kannon shots, or 180 for a full heavy support section of them isn't bad. No upgrades needed, keep 'em cheap and the number of boyz (plus their range) should keep them safe enough, and give you something else to open transports with so that the boyz can assault the contents.

Redbeard wrote:I'd go with the lootas, personally. What breakdown between shootas and sluggas?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, for cheap threats, consider kannon batteries. 60 points for 3 kannon shots, or 180 for a full heavy support section of them isn't bad. No upgrades needed, keep 'em cheap and the number of boyz (plus their range) should keep them safe enough, and give you something else to open transports with so that the boyz can assault the contents.

Sluggas or shootas goes by preference. Rule of thumb being footslogging = shootas, transport = sluggas

Also, about the kannons, the Killa kans gives you a S8 AP3 bs3 for 50 points, 150 points for 3 kans which only takes one heavy support slots. It also gives your army armor and cover (kan wall tactic). The kans are better jsut for that IMO, also, a lot of easy to kill troops at the abck might back fire (outflanking, drop pod, deep strikes, etc) so i would go for either lootas or kannons, not both

@Grots:
I see we got the same answer for the Koptas but for AV12.

For the lootas...
- 15 chances to shoot (assuming a 1 on d3)
- Chance of a "hit." 2/6 (BS 2)
- Chance of a "Penetration" 1/6 (Str 7 +6 = 13)
- Chance of "Wreck or Explosion" 2/6 (5 or 6 on VDT)

(15)(2/6)(1/6)(2/6) = 0.2778 (or 27.28%)
Isn't that right?

For the Koptas
- 5 Chances to shoot
- Chance of a "hit." 2/6 (BS 2)
- Reroll Misses (add 2/6)
- Chance of "Penetration" 2/6 (Str 8 + 5 or 6)
- Chance of "Wreck or Explosion" 2/6 (5 or 6 on VDT)

(5)(2/6+2/6)(2/6)(2/6) = 0.37037 (or 37%)


So yes 225 points for the Lootas AND for the Koptas.
This is an interesting question then... So what if we take into account the increased mobility, scout, and ability to hit rear armor. Would you guys (and gals) think you can compare them to point costs of Knights and Bishops (3+ and 3 respectively).
Your thoughts? Which would be the 3+ (in general)?

Dr G

5 TLR koptas vs AV 12

BS + (TL Modifier)
.333+(.666*.333) =.555 gets you a .555 chance to hit TL@BS2

Chance to hit * Chance to get at least a 5 which will penetrate AV12 *Chance to score 5 or 6 on Vehicle chart
.555 * .333 * .333 = .06 There is a 6% chance of this happening with 1 str8 TLlinked @ BS2 shot

So there is
1-.06 = .93 a 93/94 % chance it won't happen

Which means
.93^5 = .69 You raise .93 to the power of shots(5) the 5 shots lowers the chance of it not happening to 69%.

so if there is a 69% chance it won't happen then
1-.69 =. 31
5 koptas w TLR = 31% chance To wreck/explode av12


i think you are calculating the twin link wrong. twin link calc is BS%+((1-BS%)*BS%)

twin linked bs2 is 1/3 +((1-1/3)*1/3) or .333+((1-.333)*.333) =.55
twin linked bs3 is .5+((1-.5)*.5) = .75

Ok.
Sorry for the math lesson Grot... tell me if I am thinking of this correctly.

1. The probability of a hit: 1/3

2. The probability of a hit on the re-roll can be thought of as:
The probability of a miss on the first roll (4/6) mulitplied by the probability of hit on the second roll.

ADDING these terms you get the probability to hit with a twin linked weapon with a BS of 2...

(1/3) + ((2/3)*(1/3)) = .55

I see that now... thanks...

Then you multiply that by prob of a pen on AV12 w Str 8.
Then multiply that by the desired outcome on VDC.
That's the chance of 1 kopta w/TLRL wrecking or exploding AV12. 6% chance.... I'm with you....

Why do you not then MULTIPLY that by the number of vehicles in a squadron (5)(.061728) = .3086 ?

Again... sorry for the remedial math but I'm a little slow sometimes.

Thanks,
DrG






Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess we are getting the same anwer though...

doktor_g wrote:@Grots:

So yes 225 points for the Lootas AND for the Koptas.
This is an interesting question then... So what if we take into account the increased mobility, scout, and ability to hit rear armor. Would you guys (and gals) think you can compare them to point costs of Knights and Bishops (3+ and 3 respectively).
Your thoughts? Which would be the 3+ (in general)?

Dr G

see it that way. Koptas will most probably die 1st or 2nd round, specially if you scout move them sicne they can be IDed by S8 weapons and AP3 will bypass their armor (most armies have more than enough fo that). If you do not scout move them, they might survive more as they will drop in the target priority list.

Lootas, while not mobile, can shoot 48'' which means, if you put them on elevated terrain (ruins, hills, etc.), 2-3 loota squads can cover the whole map leaving close to no room where the opponent is safe from their S7 AP4 bullets. Also, they will get a cover save from the terrain they are hiding in, so they will be harder to kill than the koptas. (oh and they have 15 wounds instead of 10)

This is the reason I prefer investing in lootas than koptas, for the points, lootas will probably do more than koptas.

Thanks Serder!
So Lootas = knights
and koptas = bishops

I'm still undecided, since you can't shoot with the lootas until they haven't moved (deff guns are "heavy"), and you can with the koptas. Also for the points 1/3 of the time the koptas will out kill the lootas. (ie loota squad rolled 1 on d3).

mathammer is more fun than taxes... I'm such a procrastinator!

DrG

true, but lootas are not supposed to move. Usually, you deploy them and they don't move until they are killed, run away or the game ends.

Serder wrote:
Also, about the kannons, the Killa kans gives you a S8 AP3 bs3 for 50 points, 150 points for 3 kans which only takes one heavy support slots. It also gives your army armor and cover (kan wall tactic). The kans are better jsut for that IMO, also, a lot of easy to kill troops at the abck might back fire (outflanking, drop pod, deep strikes, etc) so i would go for either lootas or kannons, not both

Really? If you have 180 boyz, you're not going be able to set up a defense that prevents people landing in your backfield? With a 3" (base + 2" coherency) coverage per model, 30 boyz by themselves can block off 5 feet of the table.

As for the kans vs kannons, they're different strategies entirely. Kan Walls aren't Green Tides. You can get 8 kannons for roughly the cost of 3 kans. And in this age of mech, almost everyone you face will be able to drop AV11 threats when needed. Kans just give your opponent a really clear target for their anti-vehicle weapons. Kannons, I've found, are rarely perceived as much of a threat, and so can actually contribute quite a bit (considering their cost) to the fight.

Anyway, it's a suggestion. I've used them quite effectively. I've aslo played kan wall, but that typically doesn't field as many boyz as it doesn't have the points for them.

doktor_g wrote:Ok.
Sorry for the math lesson Grot... tell me if I am thinking of this correctly.

1. The probability of a hit: 1/3

2. The probability of a hit on the re-roll can be thought of as:
The probability of a miss on the first roll (4/6) mulitplied by the probability of hit on the second roll.

ADDING these terms you get the probability to hit with a twin linked weapon with a BS of 2...

(1/3) + ((2/3)*(1/3)) = .55
I see that now... thanks...
Then you multiply that by prob of a pen on AV12 w Str 8.
Then multiply that by the desired outcome on VDC.
That's the chance of 1 kopta w/TLRL wrecking or exploding AV12. 6% chance.... I'm with you....
Why do you not then MULTIPLY that by the number of vehicles in a squadron (5)(.061728) = .3086 ?
Again... sorry for the remedial math but I'm a little slow sometimes.
Thanks,
DrG
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess we are getting the same anwer though...

Well it's been a long time since I took a math course lol, but I just know you don't. There's a guy on the forumns named Akaen I think. He has a few eldar threads that are amazing and he gets into some of the math. Jidmah the ork player knows the math quite well also. My best answer is that you basically just find the possibility of something not happen, raise it to the power X which is number of attempts-and that lowers the probability of it NOT happening, then you subtract that from 1.

Check out Akaen's thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/402275.page