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Recently I have been playing a lot against a SM player, and his standard build is going to be something as follows:

1 Librarian
5 Space Marines - Boltguns/Captain
5 Space Marines - Boltguns/Captain
1 Rhino
1 Razerback
1 Dreadnought - Autocannon/Lascannon

The lists I have run against him as Eldar are along these lines, but typically I bring Runes of Warding:

1 Farseer - (Guide)
5 Dire Avengers
5 Dire Avengers
1 Falcon - (Scatter Laser)
1 Wave Serpent - (Scatter Laser)
1 Vyper - (Scatter Laser) - 60
Total: 500

1 Farseer - (Guide)
5 Dire Avengers
5 Rangers - (Pathfinders)
1 Falcon - (Scatter Laser)
1 Fire Prism
Total: 500

Our group pretty much only plays 2v2's, but the biggest issue I have with his list every time is obviously that dreadnought. The fact that it has 13 front armor, and in CC isn't weak like a vehicle makes it seem overpowered. I'm sure I'm missing something here, but maybe someone can point me in the right direct? I used the following list against a Tau player that always brings a Hammerhead and it worked great! But since learning that the Dreadnought won't always be hit on the back armor, it probably will not be as viable:

1 Farseer - (Fortune)
5 Warlocks - (Embolden/Enhance/3 Destructor)
5 Dire Avengers
5 Dire Avengers
1 Wave Serpent - (TW Shuriken Cannon/Star Engines)
Total: 495

Any suggestions on how to modify these or a completely new strategy?

.......

Ironclad dreadnoughts, the only dreadnought in vanilla marines that has AV 13, cannot take autocannons or lascannons. You might be dealing with a regular or venerable dread, which has AV 12. And he has 3 HQs (librarian, and two captains)? Maybe you meant sergeant.

500 points is really low for a game. Eldar especially have trouble at that total, because our units are rather expensive. So, don't expect miracles. And, try to convince your playgroup to increase point totals.

Your lists lack much anti-vehicle firepower, so you'll struggle against any heavily armed vehicles. Perhaps you could change the Falcon to have a Brightlance or EML. Increasing to 3 S8 shots should make quick work of the Dread (especially once you realize it has armor 12 and not 13).

And, you could always fight fire with fire and bring a Wraithlord.

Grakmar wrote:500 points is really low for a game. Eldar especially have trouble at that total, because our units are rather expensive. So, don't expect miracles. And, try to convince your playgroup to increase point totals.

Your lists lack much anti-vehicle firepower, so you'll struggle against any heavily armed vehicles. Perhaps you could change the Falcon to have a Brightlance or EML. Increasing to 3 S8 shots should make quick work of the Dread (especially once you realize it has armor 12 and not 13).

And, you could always fight fire with fire and bring a Wraithlord.

I still think that the 3rd list in light of the front 12 armor could do the trick. 3 attacks per Warlock/Farseer (so 18 total on a charge), and due to their bonus's (as well as Fortune to keep them alive as well as the Wave Serpent they traveled in) they should get 18 S9 attacks against 12 armor. That's pretty good odds. I just have to rely on the flat out 4+ obscure save I'm getting and the reroll it hopefully has form fortune.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

heartserenade wrote:.......

Ironclad dreadnoughts, the only dreadnought in vanilla marines that has AV 13, cannot take autocannons or lascannons. You might be dealing with a regular or venerable dread, which has AV 12. And he has 3 HQs (librarian, and two captains)? Maybe you meant sergeant.

Can you show me where it says this so I can show him?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I found it in the SM codex. So he has been playing it wrong this entire time. ><

Glad you figured out the ironclad can't take those guns.

Your best bet at that low points cost is to take a fusion gun somewhere. Just get close and pray.

If he takes normal dreads, you can try scatter lasers, or against any dread take a small squad of guardians and use a bright lance. In low points games, take foot eldar, not transports.

Farseer and warlocks using Singing Spears or Witchblades in CC are going to have a very easy time taking down a dreadnought. S9 attacks paired with a 4++ re-rollable is very likely to dish out some major damage and live to tell the tale. Three Warlocks (one with Embolden) paired to a Fortune Farseer in a Serpent should be very effective against most vehicles and MC's, although it's a pricey selection.

Another way to go would be a Striking Scorpion squad with a Claw Exarch. It's a little more versatile, having the potential to infiltrate and working well against large, low-to-no armor save units.

Exactly, So ironclad's can't take those guns, and all you need to do is get a shaken result on a regular dreadnaught to shut him up.

Just try to turbo boost behind him and punch some shots into his rear armor.

I'm also sure that dabupp means Sergeant when he says captain!

I think your first list is still the best bet against him. s6 fire power baby.

Remember that your tanks are all very very fast. If you can slide into the rear armor arc of his dreadnaught it'll collapse quickly.

dabupp wrote:
I found it in the SM codex. So he has been playing it wrong this entire time. ><

Golden rule- If you've never played vs X unit before, ask to see the codex. You have every right to, and it clears up this whole "Oh I was doing it wrong! Heh, sorry about that guys!" thing

Also- How is it not weak in CC? It's S6 1 or 2 attacks, doesn't ignore armor etc. It still wounds you on a 2+, but in CC it's only going to do 1-2 wounds that you get a save against, tops.

Doesn't your falcon come with a S8/9 2 shot cannon? Put a bright lance on it as well, and put 2-3 S8+ shots into it per turn. Guiding the falcon should guarantee hitting it, you just need to roll some 4+'s.

Your best list here is the first one.

The easy answer as to why you're struggling is that you've essentially made an anti infantry army and therefore will have massive problems with vehicles. You didn't mention it but the pulse laser on the Falcon should be doing some damage to the dread but you need something else that can hurt vehicles. Playing small point battle like this means you need to have the right amount of everything so you can deal with what your opponent puts up against you. The best solution is to play bigger battles. 1000 points is a good size game. However if you want to stick to 500 here's my advice....

-Scrap the Wave serpent. you have only 11 foot troops (including your Farseer ) but 2 transports that can carry up to 16 guys. Why? Remember you're paying for that extra capacity.

-With the points from the wave serpent get either a Fire Prism or 5 Fire Dragons to ride in the Falcon with the Farseer. These units both have very high vehicle killing ability can easily make their points back in a game. Fire Dragons could really be your best choice as they are also very strong against Terminators and other highly armoured infantry. Plus I always like the idea of increasing your army size while still increasing it's efficiency as simple math says it's harder to kill more guys and you can cover more of the board

-Get a missile launcher on the vyper. A Brightlance is another option but at 500 points you probably won't face anything with more than 12 armour

- As I've said whoever is in the Falcon get your Farseer riding with them. Using Guide early in the game on the Falcon should be very effective against the Dreadnought or any other vehicle Probably 2 S8 hits against him a turn should be getting very serious damage rolls from the pulse laser and the rerolled 4 shots from the scatter laser will also do a lot of damage to light vehicles and infantry. Then later in the battle when your Dire Avengers or Fire Dragons jump out of the falcon with him he can cast it on them for a nasty volley of shots.

-I think you might have some points left over after the changes so Spirit Stones and/or Holofield on the Falcon would be a nice addition



A lot of other options like taking an Avatar/Wraithlord come to mind but I feel the ones above are better suited to your current army list.

DC-Chaos wrote:Your best list here is the first one.

The easy answer as to why you're struggling is that you've essentially made an anti infantry army and therefore will have massive problems with vehicles.

wat?

you do realize that the scatter laser is more effective against av10, and av11 then either a missile launcher or a bright lance right? Check the link in my signature, I'm not lying to you. Strenght 6 spam is so good because its dual purpose. Its Eldar's best option against infantry, and our best option against most of the tanks in the game. The only units that will really cause problems are land raiders, which are infeasable in low point games, and quantum shielded necron vehicles, which can potentially be delt with by the pulse laser or the Farseer's withblade.

Yeah Scatter lasers are a great weapon against lightly armoured vehicles. I mentioned that myself.

DC-Chaos wrote: 4 shots from the scatter laser will also do a lot of damage to light vehicles and infantry

However our friend here was asking for advice on dealing with armour higher than that, specifically a problem he's been having with dealing with a Dreadnought which cannot be destroyed by a scatter laser. Glancing hits aren't good enough. I notice you haven't mentioned what you do against AVs of 12 or 13. I think keeping one or two of the scatter lasers is a good option as they are very useful but swapping one out for a versatile weapon like the Missile launcher will make it easier to deal with heavy armour units when he comes up against them as it gives one more high strength weapon. Besides the pulse laser there's not much else.

Lets say his space marine opponent takes a predator or second dreadnought is army which is affordable even in a 500 point game. What are all those scatter lasers going to do then? It's good to have some more weapon options as you don't know what you'll come up against. Even in the current list his opponent is already fielding 3 vehicles so some high strength weaponry can only help

You could of course try to out manoeuvre the enemy vehicles all game to try and get some shots off at the rear armour to destroy them that way but I find having one or two dedicated anti-tank weapons in your army is more reliable and doesn't restrict you to only attacking from certain positions.

Missiles are also handy for their long range, cracking open power armour, plasma rounds and dealing with MCs

Bright Lance would do all of the above but can also pop off a terminator or landraider in higher point games

Still not buying it. This is 500 points, and I firmly stand by that you don't actually need anything more than Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Cannons.

Don't forget hes runnign a Falcon. Thats 2 S8 Shots he can fire at a high Av target. Predators are still armor 11 in the sides, So Vulnerable there, and the Farseer has a witchblade if you are really desperate.

I don't actually start worrying about higher AV enemies until 750 points. At 500 points I've never met an army that I can't just hose down with s6 fire power, that Dreadnaught is no exception. Especially with a pulse laser already in the list.

EDIT: I really don't see how hes going to get 2 shooty dreads and a predator into a 500 point list. Hes got to buy a Librarian which sucks up 100 points, as well as 2 scout squads. Even then, all you need is a shaken / stunned result (read glancing hit) to stop a dreadnaught from shooting at you. and you know his HQ isn't going to be doing much. So you can play the stunlock game while you circle around to a weak point. Alternately obliterate his two puny troop choices and force your opponent to play for a draw at best. Either way I wouldn't worry about facing that type of list if I came in with dabupp's first one.

An avatar will squish it, or a wraithlord.