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My friends and I are putting together a scenario game that involves a super-heavy sized empire steam tank. I'm hoping for some help coming up with a good set of rules for this uber war machine. Though the model is not completed yet, it will include the following in the way of arms:
1) Two ironblaster sized cannons manned by two ogres and three war machine crew.
2) 22 handgunners inside the tank shooting through small windows. 11 on port, and 11 on starboard.
3) 8 handgunners and 1 engineer with a longrifle on a platform on top of the machine.
4) 3 turrets from the steam tank kit.

The model is almost 10 inches long, 5 inches wide at the widest point, and 4-5.5 inches high at the tallest point.

So, I'm wondering:

1) how should it move?
2) how should it shoot?
3) how does close combat work?
-----a) can the ogres attack? Can it fire some or all its guns while in close combat?
4) how many wounds should it have?
5) what should its other stats look like?
6) what special rules should it have?

This thing is likely to play a huge role in the special scenario, so it needs to be powerful. At the same time, it cannot be unkillable. If it helps, there will be nearly 15000 points on each side.

Thanks in advance,

-Jim

If it is like a Steam Tank, I think you should use a modified version of the Steam Points that regular tanks get.

In this case, I'd say roll 2d6 for steam points (perhaps with a penalty for a double 6 for overloading the machine) and assigning a cost for each of the tank's weapons. For example, a turret may cost X steam points, an Ironblaster cannon costs Y.

Like Steam Tanks, if you push for too much steam, you run the risk of damaging the tank, so I 'd think it should have a wounds value, maybe something high like 15? I'd also incorporate some rules that reduce the amount of wounds taken from multiple-wound weapons (maybe -1 or -2) and immunity from instant-removal spells.

My brain kind of melted. Nothing that big could move in the quasi-tech land of WHFB. You got like 30 guys and 2 ogres and 2 cannons. We'd have a tough time making that run with today's technology. Not even 40K baneblades come close to that size.

That's like a ship of the line but on land and moving and made of metal.

I'd say move more in the direction of a skaven blade whirley thing. Because those can chew up infantry without the need for 3000 dudes inside trying to fire out of portholes with no chance of hitting anything. Have one gun on top. Or go full howdah and make it a big whirley death mobile with gunners on top and exposed. That probably makes the most sense.

As for rules, at 15K points you can't really make it powerful. Not without breaking the BRB. Even if it had a 1 armor save and 2 ward and 10 wounds, the max. Cannons would chew it up.

In WW2 they had these whirling chains on tanks to clear out mine fields via brute force. They probably didn't use it on guys because there was no need. But something like this.




^ the above worked and it blew up mines and links in the chains would get destroyed. But so what, there were plenty of chains. You could say, you cannot attack the vehicle itself until that armature is gone. You can't get near it. And if you do you take X hits and are pushed back 1" away. And give it some crazy stats. It's enchanted metal and immune to mega spells. The top guys have an armor save but can be shot. Once the arm is gone, you can attack it. As for a cannon, I'd say go basilisk. Large pie plate, like a strength 8 that fires every 2 rounds but is less accurate, maybe +1 or 2 to the scatter like a mortar, not a cannon. Boom.

And yeah, it's got to be pretty slow.

DukeRustfield wrote:My brain kind of melted. Nothing that big could move in the quasi-tech land of WHFB. You got like 30 guys and 2 ogres and 2 cannons. We'd have a tough time making that run with today's technology. Not even 40K baneblades come close to that size.

That's like a ship of the line but on land and moving and made of metal.

.

Meh, you have stormlords which are the same footprint of a baneblade, but hold 30 some odd guys and a titan-sized gatling gun.

I think it's doable, Forgeworld went big with the knock-off landship, you can take an idea like that and run with it. Perhaps fluff wise you can mix the Lores of Fire and metal in there; Bright Wizards feeding massive boilers, whatever the hell they call wizards of the other lore watching the hull and all that for cracks from the stresses. That's just to keep it in one piece and somewhat mobile. I'd say for something that big that it can move a max of 3-6" a turn, 3 and it can change facing, 6 straight forward. Then divide up steam points generated for the cannons and steam turrets. say straight 2d6 roll plus a declared number under/equal to 6. Ironblaster-esque cannons take 6 points to fire, smaller ones 3, etc. Give it 12-15 wounds, after it gets under 8 you have to start rolling checks against it having structural issues.

All this would be very cool for a center piece to a huge battle like that.

Imho you want a warhammer version of this baby:
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/1/1b/Sandcrawler.jpg
Also steam points wise, how about this:
roll a 2d6 then plus x (not sure on number yet, this is to make sure the tank can do at least one thing in a turn so your battle isnt boring with a giant tank that do squat)
Then roll an artillery dice. If a misfire result is made all steam points are lost and measure 2d6 around the tank. This is the discharge of steam as the boiler overloads. ANY model under this area is automatically hit by a s3 -1 to armour save hit.
The tank also takes d3 wounds. (Or something like dat)

curran12 wrote:If it is like a Steam Tank, I think you should use a modified version of the Steam Points that regular tanks get.

In this case, I'd say roll 2d6 for steam points (perhaps with a penalty for a double 6 for overloading the machine) and assigning a cost for each of the tank's weapons. For example, a turret may cost X steam points, an Ironblaster cannon costs Y.

Like Steam Tanks, if you push for too much steam, you run the risk of damaging the tank, so I 'd think it should have a wounds value, maybe something high like 15? I'd also incorporate some rules that reduce the amount of wounds taken from multiple-wound weapons (maybe -1 or -2) and immunity from instant-removal spells.

I'd go with something like the above, though I'd make each 3" of movement cost 2 steam points (else the thing would be wizzing around the board like crazy) but have each grinding hit inflict D6 hits.

From there you'd just have to increase the wounds the thing has, maybe out to 20. And have the rule that sees you add wounds to steam point, make the brake point for that 20.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:My brain kind of melted. Nothing that big could move in the quasi-tech land of WHFB. You got like 30 guys and 2 ogres and 2 cannons. We'd have a tough time making that run with today's technology.

We've got our best and brightest working on a vehicle that can carry thirty men. It's a hell of a challenge, but I think they're up to it. I've heard they're going to call it a bus.

You take your bus into the battlefield, I'll take my instant Pothole-Maker (a shovel). I can guarantee at least a stalemate.

The idea with wizards would kind of work but I think its cooler if its nothing but engineering and steampunk. Rules-wise it doesn't need to be insane, just resiliant to some of the stuff that would destroy it unfairly fast. Just add rules for magic resistance and no multiwound over 3 or something and you're golden with 15 wounds (5 well-placed cannon ball would wreck most things not made out of modern metal alloys/materials)

It would also make sense if upon its "destruction" the tank either became a building or a crater (maybe roll a d6 and on a 1 or 2 the boilers explode instead of just bleeding off). That way even if you get slagged early on the scenario is still interesting and unique with your handgunners and engineer occupying a tower with working cannons.

Alternately, you can randomize shooting so that sometimes the handgunners die, sometimes the cannons are damaged, and only when a structural hit is incurred does the tank take wounds (in combat the target can be chosen). This would get across just how big this thing is.

I should never be locked in combat and grind should be brutal (no armour saves, look our sir! can be used but other than that it crushes man-size and thunderstomps others.

Special rules for impacts could be interesting (raming a tower or dragon)

You could choose at the start of every turn how many boilers to use, roll for each, and have escalating effects for multiple malfunctions. Having one boiler be enough for one basic function and all three firing be enough for special movement would make for exciting choices (three boilers rolling high allowing for a rediculous unstoppable ram where the hatches are all closed and anything it hits is paste!)

Just some ideas. Make sure to post pics when the monster is done!

So, we play tested this thing a few times, and we are zeroing in on a set of rules. Here is where we stand right now:

-The Bow, Stern, Port, and Starboard (front, back, left, and right) sides of the model are each treated as having their own wounds, attacks, crew, and armor value. Crew members die as the section takes wounds. Take for example, the bow: It has three ogres and two empire war machine crew for a total of 11 wounds.

-Because each section has its own wound characteristic, models can only attack the side they are in base contact with. If, at the end of a friendly close combat phase, an enemy unit is in base contact with a section that has 0 wounds it may make a special reform. It may be placed in base contact with an adjacent section. If there is not room, or it cannot legally be placed for some other reason, it stays where it is. For example: A unit of bloodcrushers charges the bow (front) and deals 11 wounds. The bloodcrushers may be placed in base contact with either the port or starboard, assuming there is room, and will behave normally in the subsequent turn. Once all four sections have been reduced to 0 wounds the tank is treated as destroyed for purposes of victory points. It will, however, remain on the field and be treated as impassable terrain.

-As a section looses wounds, the controlling player must allocate said wounds to crew members. Wounds cannot be spread out between crew members; a crew member takes wounds until dead, and then any remaining wounds carry over to other crew members.

-Three steam turrets with the same stats as a normal steam tank's turrets are mounted on the top, and do not belong to any given section. They each have a 360 degree fire arc, and may fire when the tank is in close combat.

-The chief engineer stays inside the tank and operates the boilers. He cannot attack in close combat or shoot, and does not contribute woulds to any of the four sections.

Stats _______M WS BS S T W I A LD
Tank: _________* -- -- 8 10 32 -- * --
Ogres:________6 3 3 4 4 -- 3 3 7
Crew:_________4 3 3 3 3 -- 3 1 7
Gunners:______4 3 3 3 3 -- 3 1 7
Spears:_______ 4 3 3 3 3 -- 3 1 7
Engineer:______4 3 4 3 3 -- 3 1 9
Chief engineer__4 3 4 3 3 -- 3 1 9

Bow: 11 wounds, 2+ armor, 3 ogre crew and two empire war machine crew, 2 iron blaster cannons.
The bow is armed with two iron blaster cannons mounted on a turret. Ogres are required to load the cannons, while engineers are required to maneuver the turret and fire. Therefore, in order to fire, the bow must have at least one ogre and one crew member still living.

Stern: 7 wounds, 3+ armor, 3 crew members and 3 auxiliary boilers (boilers are treated as crew members), no armaments.
The stern is where the steam is generated. As it takes wounds crew members and auxiliary boilers are destroyed, each one representing one wound. When the seventh and final wound is lost, the entire boiler apparatus is destroyed and the tank can no longer produce steam points, though functions that do not require steam are still operational.

Port and Starboard: 7 wounds, 0+ armor, 6 spearmen and 10 handgunners, no special armaments.
The port and starboard sides are the most heavily armored sections of the vehicle. As they take wounds, spear men die at the rate of one wound per spear man. When the seventh and final wound is taken, too much damage has been sustained and the handgunners can no longer fire from their fire points.

Shooting: Each section chooses targets in its own 90 degree arc and fires independently of the others.

Close combat: The crew of each section can only attack enemies in base contact with their own section.

Saves: Because of the strength and angle of the armor plates, the bow, port, and starboard always have a 5+ armor save against non-magic shooting attacks, even if the attack normally would not allow one. Furthermore, the tank has a 5+ ward save due to the magic used in its construction.

Special Rules: Terror, Unbreakable, may never pursue, ITP, magic resistance 2, special movement*

Steam points: At the beginning of each turn choose a number of steam points to generate and roll 3d6. If the number of steam points plus the roll exceeds the number of total remaining wounds, the boiler has overloaded and the tank takes 2d6 str 10 hits randomized as follows: 1-3=stern, 4=port, 5=starboard, 6=bow. No armor saves are allowed against these hits. If there are surviving engineers on the stern, the controlling player may re-roll one die of the 3d6 in the initial roll. After steam points are generated, one extra steam point is generated for every surviving auxiliary boiler on the stern. Steam points may be spent in the following way: 2 points to move each inch, 3 points to fire the steam turrets on the top of the tank, 2 points per d3 hits in a grind attack such as a regular steam tank would perform.


So far, it has performed o.k. We made the stern weak, and defeating it has usually depended on getting at the stern. In our tests, the stern was taken out on turn two by a unit of 8 maneaters with pistols, scout, and poison. A bloodthirster also managed to take out the stern on turn four, and a hydra took it out on turn four as well. Once that stern goes down, its pretty much over for this thing. Despite the armor and ward saves, the bow, port, and starboard have all been taken out a few times in the first two turns by concentrated war machine barrages. We aren't completely satisfied yet, and there are still a few ideas we are kicking around.

-Attack dogs, or gonblars, or unicorns, or something else like that, can be deployed from ramps on port and starboard during the remaining moves phase. If this option is chosen, the tank cannot move that turn.

-Single Use hellstorm rocket battery

-Replace hand gunners on port and starboard with a hellblaster that uses four steam points to fire

-Improve the armor save on the stern to 2+

-Add flame template weapons to port and starboard

-The tank goes through buildings and removes them from the board like the regular steam tank does to obstacles like walls and fences

-Increase str to 10

-Immunity to pit of shades (the logic being, that it is simply too big to fall into the pit)

-When each auxiliary boilers on the stern are destroyed, d3 str 10 hits are taken and randomized as shooting

We have yet to play test these last ideas. Personally, I would like to see the ability to deploy small units from port and starboard. A ramp folds down from the side of the massive gritty tank. Inside, it is painted with rainbows and glitter. Unicorns charge out to do combat with the enemies of the Empire!


Any thoughts, particularly regarding the stern or the rules we have not tested yet?

-Jim

With the size and mass of it, I'd do a combined steamtank and building rules for the thing.
I'd also start it moving slow, and have it speed up throughout the game.

Movement: Random Movement*
The super tank has the random movement special rule. It moves 1D6 plus twice the turn number. D6+2 turn 1, D6+4 turn 2, and so on.
Massive: Unlike other random movement, the super tank cannot pivot, it must wheel in the direction it wishes to move. Choose a direction, then roll movement, then wheel, then move.
MOOORE STEAM!!! May increase movement to 2D6 + twice the turn number, but if doubles are rolled, the super tank treats both dice as zeroes for movement.
Too Big to Fail: The super tank is immune to any remove from play result. The embarked crew are not.

Randomize all shooting hits between weapons, turrets and crew. 1-2 weapons, 3-4 passengers, 5-6 crew.
Components are struck as if they were inside a building (templates do D6 hits). If weapons and or turrets are lost, treat the hit as crew instead. IF all crew are lost, the super tank cannot move and counts as just a building.

1-2 Weapons, 2 Great Cannons, each with 3 wounds. In combat, each has 3 S3 attacks (from the humans) and each has 3 S4 attacks from the loader (ogre). Additionally, the super tank is armed with 3 steam cannons, each has 3 wounds but the turrets make no attacks in combat. All count as toughness 7 in melee as well as vs shooting.

3-4 Passengers: can have a unit of up to 30 models garrison the super tank, just as if it were a building. If the super tank does not move, the passengers may exit the super tank during the remaining moves phase, just like leaving a building. Any friendly infantry unit can embark.

5-6 Crew: Crew of 1 master engineer and 30 handgunners. Crew cannot be replaced by other models.

In close combat, you choose which section is hit, the rest of the time you roll to see what section is hit.

Combat, if the super tank moves into an enemy unit, it inflicts D6 S10 hits for each game turn. On turn 2 it does 2D6, 3 on 3D6 and so on. These are treated as impact hits.
After resolving impact hits, the unit hit can flee or board. If the unit hit boards, treat it as a round of close combat.

The crew are unbreakable, the passengers are steadfast.
Enemies cannot garrision it unless all crew and passengers are killed/disembarked. If you fail to kill them all, you are pushed out 1", just like when you fail to take a building.
Turrets are treated as WS0, crew and main guns are WS3.



Basically, I replaced steam points completely. I never liked steam tanks running at full steam at the start and losing power as the game went on. IMO, steam power should work in the other direction. Start slow and build up.
Wounds on the thing itself are gone. You just assume that it's too big to destroy in a 6 turn game. You need to kill off the crew. Randomizing hits means that 2/3rds of the in coming warmachine hits are going to hit non-critical parts of the super tank and kill some crewmen in the process. It will be tough to simply shell the cannons to death in a turn or two. You still want to engage the flanks or rears, simply so you dont get steam rolled on the following turn.

Point cost: I'd say around 900 points, plus the cost of any embarked unit. I think it is worth about 3 steam tanks.

-Matt

All I demand now is a picture of this model. NOW.
This sounds fantastic.

@ blood lance: It is currently under construction, but I'll put up a WIP thread in the painting and modeling section by the weekend.


@ Matt: If enemy troops can assault the tank like a building, should I include more crew? Also, how would the grind attacks effect a unit that is partially in the tank?


-Jim

I think the days of randomizing between crew and device are done.
One thing you might consider is a limit on how many wounds a single phase can do to the tank: any spell or effect that would remove Tanktanic from play instead deals d6 wounds to one side, chosen at random. Furthermore, any attack that deals multiple wounds to Tanktanic is reduced by 1.

Warpsolution wrote:I think the days of randomizing between crew and device are done.
One thing you might consider is a limit on how many wounds a single phase can do to the tank: any spell or effect that would remove Tanktanic from play instead deals d6 wounds to one side, chosen at random. Furthermore, any attack that deals multiple wounds to Tanktanic is reduced by 1.

I like that. Dealing wounds instead of removing from play would be more balanced than simple immunity. Also, I think you just named this thing. Tanktanic has a nice ring to it.

-Jim

The Bow/side/stern concept is good, but a little complicated.


Here is what I would do.

Steam Leviathan

M--WS--BS--S---T---W---I---A---Ld---Sv
*---*-----3---6---10--15--*--*----*----1+

Unit type: Unique

Wargear:

Special Rules: Unbreakable, Steel Hull, Land battleship, Steam Powered

Steel Hull: The Steam Leviathan automatically passes all characteristic tests, except for Inititive Tests which it fails automatically. if it is forced to take an Inititive Test it will take D6 wounds instead of suffering the normal effects. The Steam Leviathen also has MR(3)

Land battleship: The massive construct has a small army on board.

there are 2 Empire Great Cannons mounted in the Leviathan's bow. These may be fired out of the contruct's front arc and may fire even if the Leviathan is in combat.

The Leviathan has 3 Steamguns, one in each of its front and side arcs. These may be fired independently of each other in the shooting phase. In combat each Steamgun gives the Leviathan a breath weapon, but only against opponents in the Arc the Steamgun is mounted on.

The Leviathan has a compliment of Handgunners firing out of it's port and starboard sides. There are 10 Handgunners on each side. They may fire in the shooting phase as if the leviathan was a building, they may shoot even if the Leviathan is in combat. Each bank may shoot at any enemy models that are engaging their side of the Leviathen unless there are friendly models engaged with them as well.

Steam Powered: The Leviathan moves and fires it's weapons with the pressure generated from it's massive boilers.

To generate Steam Points, declare how many you are trying to generate. If you declare 1-6 Steam Points, roll a D6. If you declare between 7 and 12 Steam points roll 2D6. Compare your roll to the number of wounds the Leviathan has remaining. if the roll is less then the number of wounds left all is well, if the roll is hogher then something has gone horribly wrong. No Steam Points are generated, Roll a 2D6 and consult the following chart.

2-4: Boiler explodes: The stressed boiler has failed catastrophically. Every unit within 8" takes 2D6 Str3 armor piercing hits. The leviathan is destroyed, replace it with an area of dangerous terrain.

5-6: Steamline rupture: a pressure line has burst, dousing the interior with scalding hot steam. Roll a D6, on a 1-3 the handgunners have all been killed, 4-6 the Steamguns have been permanantly disabled. the indicated weapons may not be fired for the rest of the game.

7: Pressure overload: one of the pipes bursts, causing some armor plating to fall off. The Leviathan suffers 1 wound with no saves of any kind allowed.

8-9: Driveshaft cracked: the driveshaft has cracked under the enormous pressure. The Leviathan may not move for the rest of the game.

10-12: Disaster averted: The engineer manages to stabilize the catastophe. The leviathan has 3 Steampoints to use this turn and may use them as normal.


Steam Point costs of actions

3" of movement: 2 steam points(move/charge exactly like the Steam Tank)

Fire 1 Steamgun: 1 steam point each

Fire Great Cannon: 2 steam points each

Fire handgunners: 0 steam points

D3 impact hits/grind attacks in combat: 1 steam point


When the Leviathan enters combat it gains D3 impact hits per Steam point it used for movement that turn.