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So just wondering what everyone thought about Fast Attack for Orks. I do like the Warbikes and I like Stormboyz, but for a "cheaper" and effective small squad I like Deffkoptas best with TL Missile and Buzzsaws. Depending on mission, enemy or who goes first I will either scout them or Outflank and try to take out something important - now unless they are locked up in CC, they are many times 1 trick wonders but I still think effective. I had a squad of 3 Deffkoptas outflank shoot and then assault and destroy a squadron of Leman Russes. They got blown to crap the next turn but the point ratio was worth it. I have had them outflank and take out devastator and long fang squads too that I could not get to quickly and kept them from firing at my battlewagons.. Cheers all

Deffkoptas with rokkits, either scouting forward or outlflanking. Best anti-light and medium tank the orks have.

9 Rokkit buggies--315 points

juraigamer wrote:Deffkoptas with rokkits, either scouting forward or outlflanking. Best anti-light and medium tank the orks have.

I agree with that, I think for quick hitting hard they work well.

As an extra point to consider, I know they're not technically Fast Attack, but don't forget a lot of people like Nob bikers as well.

I'd go for the deffkoptas, not just for the coolness of the unit but also for the fact that you can get em cheap thanks to AOBR.

Deffkoptas are always good at taking out tanks with their scout/outflank rules.In my ork army I take Stormboyz and Zagstrukkk as they are a good unit if you get a good number of them as their deep strike rule helps to get into cc quickly and they can charge on the turn they get in! They offer a good anti infantry and tank threat so they are therefore very useful. I have heard bikers can be good if you take them in a big unit. Hope this helps.

Deffkoptas outflanking is actually extremely effective.
As they are twin-linked, they have a 55% of hitting with each rokkit. Since your usually shooting AV 10/11 on the sides, they can really crack open some transports.
The buzzsaw is an excellent addition, but is not required to be effective.

The buggies are nice because they cannot be ran off the table, and provide cheap mobile anti-transport fire.

I have warbuggies and traxx but I have not played them in 5th edition. I do think the storm boyz are good, but have not used them too much. I am planning on trying them out in a few games as well as Kommandos...

It is so situational. Orks need rockets and buggies or koptas are a good source depending on which fits your list the best.

I should try buggies again, the problem is they are so easy to crack, but at least in a squadron, they can always move...

Bikes, because using them effectively takes real tactical skill IMO.

I just keep steering away from Buggies like a I do from Vypers and Vypers shoot better and are fast skimmers. If they were shot by grots at least it would be BS3, but that BS2 is just so killer... The open topped makes it so much easier to kill

I like ALL the fast attack for Orks that codex is just freaking blessed in that department. I have been known to run any of the following

Single Dethkoptas with Rokkits and Buzzsaw are awesome for Turbo Scouting or Outflanking
Squadrons of Rokkit Buggies are awesome for Popping Transports and are really nice under a KFF
Big Mobs of Stormboyz are awesome because they Look freaking bad ass and they can come off your board from reserves and assault things midfield, this will freak your opponent out.
MSU Warbikes (Nob with Bosspole/Klaw with two boyz) are awesome for Turbo-boosting up field with a 3+ and then keeping a 4+ all the time, assaulting transports as they go along

They all are good used in the correct situations in the right lists. BUT if your making me pick I'd have to say Rokkit Buggies are just full of win

I like a mix. Not necessarily all in the same list, but there are so many different roles that the choices each fill that no one is outstandingly better than another.

I've had great results with my two DethKopta Squads!

Highly recommend scouting and then blasting away.

Ork Fast Attack is where you get some of the most utility in the codex. Orks struggle to open armour at range without sacrificing mobility (lootaz are effective but static)

Deffcoptaz can scount/outflank + have TL rokkits

Squadrons of buggies are more resilient than deffcoptaz and have TL rokkits as well. they synergize well w/ battle wagon or trukk spam lists, picking up the 4+ save from the KFF vs the throw away nature of deffcoptaz.

warbikes are simply the best mobile light armour/anti-infantry shooting in the codex but suffer from being hugely expensive and somewhat fragile (low squad sizes lead to ld7 checks and that's never good, bosspole or not)

i love storm boyz and skorchaz but it's hard to take them when they duplicate what the rest of the codex is already great at: kill infantry at short range/in CC.

i'd say anything that brings semi-reliable anti-tank w/out sacrificing mobility is really what speed freak style ork lists need. so deffcoptaz or buggies have to be the top choices w/ warbikes next up if you're keen for a challenging but effective unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lockdar wrote:I'd go for the deffkoptas, not just for the coolness of the unit but also for the fact that you can get em cheap thanks to AOBR.

for the sake of argument ;-)

http://www.baddonkeygaming.com/2011/01/deffkopta-to-buggy.html

and many more if you ask google.

Buggies are quite good in most situations, if you use them with the right mindset. The key is to accept that they WILL die; once you've made themental adjustment from 'keep my units alive' to 'kill as many a' dem ovver gitz as dey can before dey blowz up', which is a pretty simple adjustment for an Ork player, then you can use them VERY aggressively, score some early transport kills, and provide your boyz and trukks with cover from the wrecks. They're effective against light vehicles and most MCs, fast enough to get around behind heavier vehicles for side and rear shots, and can even blow up a few MEQs if that's what you need.

Warbikes are situational; without careful play or in the wrong situation they'll get wrecked, but when used well they can be very dangerous. They are expensive and fragile in terms of Leadership, but they put out a lot of fire, move very fast, and provide an excellent PK delivery system. Turbo-boosting and then charging in with a small squad and PK Nob can work well against meched-up armies or armies with a lot of backfield shooting units; against hordes such as Tyranids, infantry Guard or other Orks larger squads can swoop in, tear up a unit with fire (every Warbiker in the unit will kill 1 Guardsman or ~0.8 Orks with shooting), and then either charge the weakened squad (if you chose to come in close) or just circle around outside of Rapid Fire range, whittling them down.

Deff Koptas. . . A lot of people really like them, but I don't. They're VERY good at one highly specific role, but it's a crapshoot whether you'll manage to carry it off, and they really are a one-trick pony. If you have the first turn a single Deff Kopta with a buzzsaw can Turbo-boost forward on its Scout move, then shoot and charge a transport vehicle before it has a chance to move and very likely wreck it. The Kopta will then die on the next turn, but killing a transport and forcing the nasties inside to footslog is usually worth it, even though you've traded a 70 point model for a 30-40 point one. The problem is that this is very nearly the ONLY thing they can do effectively; for any other use they cost more points for the same power than some other choice, and they're EXTREMELY fragile. Even the option to Outflank doesn't, IMO, make them worth taking as anything except one-model kamikaze units, and unless you get the first turn those kamikazes are likely to die before reaching their target. Yes, even with the turbo-boost save; a single Tactical Squad can rapid-fire a turbo-boosting Deff Kopta to death, and anything S8 or higher will vaporize it in a single hit. All that said; they can work. But they take a lot more effort and quite a bit more luck than Buggies or Warbikes.

Stormboyz just aren't worth it. They're killy in close-combat; that's fine, but you can get killier things for cheaper. The only benefit they have over Shoota Boyz is that they can move faster, but they cost twice as much and you can't take a 30-strong mob, so you're getting all of the downsides of footslogging Shoota Boyz (easy to kill, morale problems at low numbers) without the benefits (massive numbers, cheap, good shooting as well as assault power). When you add on to that the fact that they can't Waaagh and that using that nice fast move has the risk of killing one of them off, they're too expensive for a unit that does exactly what your basic units already do but worse.

My top FA choice is the Warbuggy, closely followed by Warbikers. Deff Koptas I'd take sometimes, in some lists; Stormboyz I would almost never take.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Deff Koptas. . . A lot of people really like them, but I don't. They're VERY good at one highly specific role, but it's a crapshoot whether you'll manage to carry it off, and they really are a one-trick pony. If you have the first turn a single Deff Kopta with a buzzsaw can Turbo-boost forward on its Scout move, then shoot and charge a transport vehicle before it has a chance to move and very likely wreck it. The Kopta will then die on the next turn, but killing a transport and forcing the nasties inside to footslog is usually worth it, even though you've traded a 70 point model for a 30-40 point one. The problem is that this is very nearly the ONLY thing they can do effectively; for any other use they cost more points for the same power than some other choice, and they're EXTREMELY fragile. Even the option to Outflank doesn't, IMO, make them worth taking as anything except one-model kamikaze units, and unless you get the first turn those kamikazes are likely to die before reaching their target. Yes, even with the turbo-boost save; a single Tactical Squad can rapid-fire a turbo-boosting Deff Kopta to death, and anything S8 or higher will vaporize it in a single hit. All that said; they can work. But they take a lot more effort and quite a bit more luck than Buggies or Warbikes.

I agree that Deff Koptas are often one trick ponies, however that being said I do not agree with you for their uses. I have used them in many battles not just to kill or crack tanks which with shooting and assault with buzz Saws will usually kill a vehicle or squadron or vehicles except for Monoliths and Land Raiders, however I have used them effectively for multiple roles. I have many of times used them to kill or tie up long range shooters like Long Fangs and the like, Oblits and other artillery things. I have had them come on the board to take out fast attack vehicles like vendettas that came in behind my guys or if they arrive when other boyz get to where I outflank them, I will have them help out by killing the vehicle so that the boyz can get to the soft squishy things or have them help in CC. I do agree that they are fragile, however, sometimes your opponent will ignore them, in which case they can continue to cause havok or they spend a lot of shooting or CC to kill them, giving your other bouyz a chance to get closer... I usually run 2-3 koptas and usually 1-2 squads depending on my list, but I have found them to be very helpful. Though they may not make it until the end of the game, they usually contribute a lot. One game one squad of Deffkoptas took out a squadron of Leman Russes in Shooting and CC, the other squad killed a vendetta and the squad of veterans that were inside of it. Both squads were crucial to the game.

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:

I agree that Deff Koptas are often one trick ponies, however that being said I do not agree with you for their uses. I have used them in many battles not just to kill or crack tanks which with shooting and assault with buzz Saws will usually kill a vehicle or squadron or vehicles except for Monoliths and Land Raiders, however I have used them effectively for multiple roles. I have many of times used them to kill or tie up long range shooters like Long Fangs and the like, Oblits and other artillery things. I have had them come on the board to take out fast attack vehicles like vendettas that came in behind my guys or if they arrive when other boyz get to where I outflank them, I will have them help out by killing the vehicle so that the boyz can get to the soft squishy things or have them help in CC. I do agree that they are fragile, however, sometimes your opponent will ignore them, in which case they can continue to cause havok or they spend a lot of shooting or CC to kill them, giving your other bouyz a chance to get closer... I usually run 2-3 koptas and usually 1-2 squads depending on my list, but I have found them to be very helpful. Though they may not make it until the end of the game, they usually contribute a lot. One game one squad of Deffkoptas took out a squadron of Leman Russes in Shooting and CC, the other squad killed a vendetta and the squad of veterans that were inside of it. Both squads were crucial to the game.

Fair enough; the issue I have with them is that accomplishing something like that requires a lot of luck. Yes, if your opponent ignores them, Deffkoptas can be a great unit; but the same is true of ANY unit if your opponent ignores it, Chaos Spawn excepted. Deffkoptas have to pay through the nose in order to be effective; 70 points for a 2-wound T4(5) model is a problem. It only takes a few autocannons, an infantry unit in RF range, a Leman Russ without a better target, a psyback full of psycannon-toting Purifiers, a squad of Long Fangs. . . there are a lot of units that can wipe out a Deffkopta with one round of shooting. In my experience, they're free KP and wasted points more often than they are effective combat units.

The other thing to look at is the opportunity cost. 3 Deffkoptas with rokkits and buzzsaws cost 210 points; for those same points you can get 6 Rokkit Buggies, which have more firepower, require more damage to kill, move just as fast, and even when they die will usually provide cover for the rest of your army. They have twice the punch in shooting, enough that they can even engage AV13 with a decent chance of success; they can't assault, but the extra damage they do in shooting makes up for it. They even do nearly as much damage to infantry, though they can't tie them up in CC like Deffkoptas can. Or you could take 7 Warbikes with a PK/BP Nob for 215 points, a unit that is just as fast, can get a turbo-boost save, and does more damage against both infantry and AV10 and nearly as much against AV11; 21 shots, 12 hits, 4 damage results against AV10 or 2 glances against AV11. In addition their PK is higher strength than a Deffkopta buzzsaw, meaning they can attack Land Raiders and Monoliths in CC with some chance of accomplishing something; a LOW chance, granted, but any chance is better than zero. The only unit Deffkoptas definitely beat out is Stormboyz.

So for the same price as the Deffkoptas you can have something which is strictly more powerful against the preferred target (Rokkit Buggies) or you can have something which is capable against a wider variety of targets (Warbikers), and either choice is more durable. Furthermore, since Deffkoptas are almost always run in single-model units, you've not only increased the power of your list, you've saved 1-2 of your FA slots; hell, if you want, you could still take a couple of Deffkoptas!

Taking Deffkoptas over Warbuggies or Warbikes means trading killing power and durability away for more flexible deployment options and the chance of a turn-1 kamikaze strike. Lots of people think that's a worthwhile trade; I, personally, do not. YMMV.

I like your assesment. I agree for the most part. If you can have your Warbuggies protected by the Big Mek's KFF then I think that they are more survivable. They lack the CC ability, but I think for the points are more killy. They could use the Battlewagons to protect via Line of sight from some of the opponents fire. I guess what it comes down to is the outflank move or scout move, because I agree for the points you can get something that will survive longer and potentially kill more things. I always like getting new peoples perspectives. I have 3 wartrakks, not buggies, but I will try them out in the next game and see how they fair. Thanks for the advice. Cheers man.

I'v had a crack at all the fast attack so here's my 2pence if you want it;

-Stormboyz: They are cool models, and fast and killy, however as orks you really wanna land at the same time or go at the same speed. If it was a footslogging army then id take more boys for the cost, if it was mech then id put boyz in a battlewagon. They can be effective but for me its too far and few (is their mobility and stickbombs really worth twice as much as a normal boy?)

-Warbuggies: Cheap, target saturation. Also I love them for castling up my army, so if the enemy gets first turn the rest will have cover saves. I wouldn't rely on them to deal with nasty pansey skimmers however they are not something the enemy can keep ignoring either.

-Warbikers: Fun, but i think they belong more in a dakka army. One tactic is to line them out so you can do huge multiassaults (yes yes they will die) and also give following orks a cover save. Iv found they can also be very effective in a flank with some warbuggies.

-Deffkopters: I think these are the best. They can either alpha strike or be but into reserve for special outflank move. Yes they are a suicide unit but it will mess up your enemies deployment or get you some vehicle kills. I find they work best in small squads (try putting them in solo units, only 3 but they can't kill them all with one tac squad of rapid firing, and they won't run away). In the majority of the games i use them they help the win, either buy popping transports in alpha strike, hitting rear armour in outflank or tying up enemy units (last time against a guard i popped a chimera then one of my lone kopters tied up a nice plasma cannon sentinal squad for the rest of the game in close combat)

I think it depends more on the composition of your army, for instance I mostly play MEQ so I don't actually have anything in my fast attack slots. Also I don't rely on rokkits hitting, even with twin linked...the dice Gods can be a cruel and unforgiving mistress.

I play Eldar frequently and having to get 5's and 6's just kills me, IMO, orks can't shoot, so I tend to run most everything mech and mostly CC except for Deffkoptas and I love burnas, but hey they don't have to worry about BS, they just point and shoot. Perfect for orks. I like the idea of running Ghazzy with them, I usually run my big mek with KFF and a Burna with the burnas to get another burna shot and run Ghazzy with nobz or MegaNobz or Boyz.... I really like Mad Doc so many times I leave Ghazy at home..

When i first started playing orks i agreed completely,10 or 15 burna templates out of any point of the hull with 6" will make terminators scared, however i found burnas (although more fun) more situational then lootas.

And your wrong orks can shoot, they shoot a lot, they can't aim though. With weight of numbers though the shooting can become devestating...take 9 buggies, they will start dying fast but having 9 even with opentopped 10 it will take a while, which shots won't be hitting wagons.

I'd like to weigh in a little in the defense of stormboyz.

Stormboyz have two big advantages over trukkz or footsloggers. They can fly. I've been having a lot of trouble lately with shooty units being place high up in ruins and buildings, insulating them from my poor boyz on the ground. What normally would be a turn two assault turns into a 3 or 4 turn odyssey. Thats extra turns where they're shooting and I'm crying.

Shooting them out isn't a good option, because I'd rather be pouring what little fire I have into nasty CC deathstar units which would be to expensive to deal with in CC. Also, most of the time if the unit is hiding 2-3 floors up in a ruin or building, its not going to be great a CC (thus allowing for the stormboyz to easily rout them, rather than waste turns of fire into the building).

So I'd rather risk the dangerous terrain roll on some stormboyz to assure the turn two assault.

Also, the other advantage is the fact you can't wreck their mobility. Most competent players will demech you quickly, leaving your little squads of trukk boyz slogging. I relish the ability of stormboyz to remain a long range threat until every last one of them is dead. Or running. Which happens a lot since I can't roll to pass a morale check to save my life.

Id like to see a compedent player destroy battlewagons and trukks with an obscure save "quickly"

They are a nice unit, if you wanted them you could run them behind your vehicles for cover/BLOS terrain.

I do agree with you on one point - If you know the enemy will be hiding in a multistory ruin then they can be very effective, and you can fly over infantry making it harder for the enemy to bubble wrap.

Stopping nine trukks with a 4+ save within two turns isn't really a problem. Stopping four battlewagons is.