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So basically, the CCS would go in the lone vendetta, while 2 vet squads went with the pair of vendettas and the other 2 went with the pair of valks. The storm troopers would deepstrike.
Opinions? Comments, concerns, everything is appreciated!
good list although id advise taking an astropath dropping the doctrines and exchanging the flamers for melta and plasma perhaps adding another stormie unit with meltas
Automatically Appended Next Post: also drop the power wepons they dont do any good
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/06 01:59:14
I'm not a fan of melta spam and sadly, the carapace armor isn't doing much, but I personally enjoy it. I'd agree with Crimson though, drop the flamers and the power swords, an astropath would help a lot too. My person fav for airborne is vets with 3 plasma rifles, plasma pistol, carapace and demolitions. Throw in shotguns (as you have) and your decent at assaulting, good at mid ranged (plasmas) and can take on hordes and tanks (demolitions) along with your valks and vendettas.
If you need to drop something like a landraider, drop in your melta stormtroopers or your CCS. Good list!
"A good soldier obeys without question.
A good officer commands without doubt."
Yeah, the power weapons were a "I have 40 points left, what should I do?" thing lol So, if I give the vets plasma, I can only get 3 squads of them, but then I have enough points to throw in an extra stormies squad and get an astropath. That puts me at 1425, and I could put marbo in there to fill the points.
So revised list:
HQ: Company Command Squad
--4 meltas
--carapace armor
--Astropath
I love to run my air cav, its so intimidating that all they want to do is shoot the birds down, so you need to give them somthing else to worry about. Make them have to make hard choices on what needs to die. Thats why I run as many mechs as I can.
As for this list
So revised list:
HQ:
Company Command Squad ( why carapace armour? Drop it. Youre the imperial guard, not to be confused, youre not a space marine lol)
--4 meltas
--carapace armor
--Astropath
Elites: ( Drop the troopers, just take marbo. That should give you enough points to take at least 2x hydras or a manticore
Storm Trooper Squad
--2 meltas
Storm Trooper Squad
--2 meltas
Guardsmen Marbo
Troops: ( WAAAYYYY to expensive for troops)
Veteran Squad
--3 plasma guns
--6 shotguns
--plasma pistol for sergeant
--Demolitions
--Grenadiers
you have 30 pts to spend on a doctrine if you want, Personally I would consider dropping the MPR to get 60 more points. Then using the available 90 get another vet squad with 2x melta or something like that. In an air cav you need lots of troops. Make sure you keep the squad of 2 vens in reserve for deep strike if you need a tactical edge and have some table room
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/06 19:38:49
37,500 pts Daemon Army of the Gods
35,000 pts - X - Iron Tenth
15,000pts - Firehawks
7,000 pts - Nighthaunt
Dkok - 1850
CCS. with 4 plasmas
Troops . 2 units of melta vets
Troops. 2 units of plasma vets
Fast. 2 vendettas with HB Fast. 2 valks with HB + MRP
Fast. Vendetta with HB Heavy. Hydra x3 with HF Its not true air cav but those hydras are a massive distraction especially to armies like deldar tau eldar and crons and any unit firing at the 75pt hydra isnt firing at the 140 pts valk
That's illegal. You can't mix Valkyries and Vendettas. Their squadrons are two different choices.
Really, the thing to keep in mind is that if you go AirCav you have some very different strengths and weaknesses than traditional Guard.
Strengths 1. Most flexible deployment in the game (reliably reserve, outflank, scout right up onto the enemy, deep strike...)
2. Able to deal with a variety of threats with minimal changes to your army list (magnetize those Valkyries/Vendettas!)
3. Fairly accurate weapons fire.
Weaknesses 1. Not as numerous as other IG variants.
2. Glass hammer, vulnerable to return fire (you have to get out to use your troops, exposing you to enemy fire, and your transports are in squadrons outside of 1000 point games)
3. Depending how 'pure' of a list, little to know artillery that the IG is known for.
Those are the top things that come to mind. Some of them you can work around by adjusting your tactics, others by the army list itself, and the rest you just have to live with.
The AirCav army I'm planning for my next army is this (and subject to change!):
Spoiler:
Company Command Squad - 255
1 Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken
1 Veteran with Vox Caster
3 Veterans with Plasma Gun
1 Astropath
1 Office of the Fleet
Company Command Squad - 105
1 Company Commander
1 Veteran with Vox Caster
3 Veterans with Meltagun
Storm Trooper Squad - 105
1 Storm Trooper Sergeant with Carapace Armor, Hellgun, Hellpistol, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades
3 Storm Troopers with Carapace Armor, Hellgun, Hellpistol, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades
2 Storm Troopers with Carapace Armor, Meltagun, Hellpistol, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades
Guardsman Marbo - 65
Veteran Squad - 135
1 Veteran Sergeant with Flak Armor, Shotgun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs
1 Veterans with Flak Armor, Shotgun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs, Vox Caster
3 Veterans with Flak Armor, Meltagun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs
1 Veterans with Flak Armor, Shotgun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs, Demolition Charge
4 Veterans with Flak Armor, Shotgun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs
Veteran Squad - 135
1 Veteran Sergeant with Flak Armor, Shotgun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs
1 Veterans with Flak Armor, Shotgun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs, Vox Caster
3 Veterans with Flak Armor, Meltagun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs
1 Veterans with Flak Armor, Shotgun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs, Demolition Charge
4 Veterans with Flak Armor, Shotgun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs
Veteran Squad - 135
1 Veteran Sergeant with Flak Armor, Shotgun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs
1 Veterans with Flak Armor, Shotgun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs, Vox Caster
3 Veterans with Flak Armor, Meltagun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs
1 Veterans with Flak Armor, Shotgun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs, Demolition Charge
4 Veterans with Flak Armor, Shotgun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs
Veteran Squad - 135
1 Veteran Sergeant with Flak Armor, Shotgun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs
1 Veterans with Flak Armor, Shotgun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs, Vox Caster
3 Veterans with Flak Armor, Meltagun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs
1 Veterans with Flak Armor, Shotgun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs, Demolition Charge
4 Veterans with Flak Armor, Shotgun, Close-Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs
Valkyrie Assault Carrier Squadron - 390
3 Valkyries with Multi-laser, 2 Multiple Rocket Pods, Searchlight, Extra Armor
Valkyrie Assault Carrier Squadron - 390
3 Valkyries with Multi-laser, 2 Multiple Rocket Pods, Searchlight, Extra Armor
Total Points - 1850
I decided to rely on my troops for my anti-tank and my transports for my anti-horde. I gave everyone that needs it Vox Casters because each Company Command Squad can issue orders, and both Bring it Down and Fire on My Target are too important. Your first volley needs to be as accurate as possible. I chose Demolitions over Grenadiers simply because the 4+ save wouldn't help enough and the Demo charge may actually be useful.
Guardsman Marbo I included because I had 50 points left over so I dropped some Plasmaguns to Meltaguns in my second Command Squad. I know he sometimes performs sub-par, but he doesn't allow cover saves (since he deploys so close to the enemy) and there's really nothing else to take aside from Heavy Bolters which I don't feel I'll need.
Storm Troops fit the theme and can serve as yet another disruption method.
And Straken I feel is almost a must. Counter-Attack and Furious Charge bubbles are too important to pass up in my mind. If you should survive the turn outside, being able to charge and strike like Space Marines in close combat will be handy. Mind you, you'll strike like Tactical Marines rather than Assault Marines, but still.
I had been planning on filling up my Fast Attack slots by taking 2 Vendettas but the more I thought of it the more I just thought "why?". They are slower than the Valkyrie if they are effective and are more for holding your home objective. There are cheaper ways to do that (Harker's squad with double Heavy Bolters and Stealth comes to mind). Plus they could only fire at one target anyways, so unless you do nothing but Vendettas (which I didn't want to do since it doesn't really fit the theme when you think of it) there isn't a point in taking two. Blowing up at most 3 vehicles a turn is kind of moot. Its all going to be on your troops anyways.
So yea. 2 Vets and a CCS act as a 'veteran platoon' and each ride in a Valkyrie squadron. Enemy either reserves (and suffers for it thanks to Office of the Fleet) or gets alpha striked hard if you are going first. If you are going second, you can just Outflank with both (and benefit from it thanks to the Astropath). Against Horde you perform strafing runs. Against Mech, you pick a flank, and make a hole. Against hybrid, you can do either. No need to be afraid of dangerous terrain either. A 1 in 6 chance to take out your Valkyrie is risky, but being able to drop an AP2 S8 Large Blast on some Space Marines in cover is sometimes worth it.
lol sorry I probably rambled but I thought sharing my thoughts on AirCav may help you out with your list, even if you disagree with them!
I dont think that youre list is very good, no offense....
It looks very ugly and you should work on your formating. Now onto the acutal issues with that list....
No vendettas... they are the staple of an air cav. I like to run at least 4 vens in an air cav. ALso your troops are a bit costly. It cuts down the number of planes you get.
As well, why would you want to have a second command list? I think the first one I made was the best option for the list. I think that my list was ideal for OP.
I think that my list just needs to drop a vendetta take 2 hydras and then find some way to take straken. I think thats the best way to go.
37,500 pts Daemon Army of the Gods
35,000 pts - X - Iron Tenth
15,000pts - Firehawks
7,000 pts - Nighthaunt
Dkok - 1850
xSoulgrinderx wrote:I dont think that youre list is very good, no offense....
None taken.
xSoulgrinderx wrote:It looks very ugly and you should work on your formating.
Just listed each model with its wargear. It was a copy-paste from a Google Doc of mine which is why it had that info there. I was lazy and didn't clean it up. Beyond that the formatting is the same as yours and what everyone else uses except I also bolded the name of each unit so /shrug
xSoulgrinderx wrote: No vendettas... they are the staple of an air cav. I like to run at least 4 vens in an air cav. ALso your troops are a bit costly. It cuts down the number of planes you get.
My troops are cheaper than what you suggested (by 10 points). The entirety of the difference between what I posted and what you posted is that you included a Power Fist and no Vox but I included a Vox and no Power Fist. That's it. So your argument applies to your list then. Maybe it needs a second look?
Also, you can only have 3 Squadrons of a single type of craft on a single Force Org chart. That means your 4 Vendettas can shoot at a total of 3 targets. That's it. They can also move 6" and fire all guns or 12" and fire a single TLLC. That's not particularly effective outside of 1000 point games.
The reason Vendettas are normally so good is that you can take a one or two (as separate ForceOrg choices) to support your army with some ridiculously powerful anti-tank. This lets you use your Infantry Platoons, tanks, and artillery to better do their job of blowing up the enemy infantry.
AirCav lists are entirely different beasts than your traditional IG army. I mean, army building is always about dealing with the strengths/weaknesses and planning accordingly. With AirCav you are limiting yourself on because of a theme. How much you bend the 'rules' of the theme is one thing, and will change what you can/can't bring. The choices you bring will be used differently than in a traditional list. Trying to take ideas that work well in a traditional list and just shoehorn them in to a completely different list will not always work out to your benefit.
For example, if you are bringing all Vendettas with Heavy Bolters in an AirCav list, that's pretty much your only vehicle. If you bring other tanks you need to have other infantry units that are on the ground supporting them. Sure, you may do okay against mech lists, but what about Horde? 3 Lascannons and 2 Heavy Bolters at BS3 aren't doing a whole lot to 30 Ork Boyz or Termagaunts. Even worse, you'd have to be stationary to even get that many shots, which is outright suicide for your vehicle.
So some Vendettas may have their place, but because you don't have the artillery and numbers of a traditional IG list, you have no choice. You need a few Valkyries.
Personally, I wouldn't bother with more than 1-2 Vendettas. They are stuck in a Squadron so they fire at the same target and no matter what are going to be vulnerable to the enemy. Better to disregard them entirely and bring Valkyries to thin out Hordes and rely on your Veterans to take out enemy armor.
xSoulgrinderx wrote: As well, why would you want to have a second command list? I think the first one I made was the best option for the list. I think that my list was ideal for OP.
I mentioned it my post. The Orders are too damn handy. In AirCav, you are getting one hit off for sure and it needs to be a doozy. Being able to make your shots twin-linked or negate cover saves is just too important. The extra fire power offered by Veteran squads and the CCS (all at the wonderful BS of 4) is too important as well to downgrade to Infantry Platoons.
xSoulgrinderx wrote: I think that my list just needs to drop a vendetta take 2 hydras and then find some way to take straken. I think thats the best way to go.
Depends on how "all AirCav" the OP wants to go, but yes. Hydras are pretty solid. But again, you'll need infantry on the table to take care of them (this is what "bubbles" are for). Otherwise the enemy will be able to take them out fairly easily.
Edit: I hope you don't take my comments as a personal attack or anything. I just want to try to make my point more clear: That AirCav lists need to be built differently than traditional IG, play completely differently, and really need to capitalize on their initial strike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/06 22:50:36
You have made some very good points. And I think ill be using your advice to make some changes to my list.
hope you don't take my comments as a personal attack or anything. I just want to try to make my point more clear: That AirCav lists need to be built differently than traditional IG, play completely differently, and really need to capitalize on their initial strike.
Oh, absolutley none take good sir. Its great advice, and ive been working out the kinks in my air cav and this post is most def. helping me get that done. I bet once this post is done Ill have the perfectly balanced list. Just need to keep working on it.
The tactica for the list is totally different then normal IG like you said, and you have to hit like a hammer the first round of shooting, otherwise it could be game. I also thought that the birds can move up to 12 and still fire everything since theyre fast. 12 counts as crusing, 18 counts as combat and 24 is flat out
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/07 02:09:23
37,500 pts Daemon Army of the Gods
35,000 pts - X - Iron Tenth
15,000pts - Firehawks
7,000 pts - Nighthaunt
Dkok - 1850
wow, looks like I missed a good discussion.
You have both brought up valid points, and I appreciate the advice from both of you. Here's what I've come up with from it:
HQ: Company Command Squad
--3 meltas
--Astropath
--Vox
Company Command Squad
--3 meltas
--Officer of the Fleet
--Vox
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hows this one look? I don't think I'm entirely sold on the full stormie team, but I had 80 points left and that filled it up just fine...
I feel like there's a better way to do that though
Well, if you drop the Plasma Pistols you could take two 5 man ST squads I think.
Also, may as well take Lasguns on the squads with Plasmaguns. Just in case you can actually use the extra range.
I like that you have 3 squads instead of just two, but if you plan on keeping the CCS in the Vendettas you may as well drop Vox all around. If not, no worries. I'm just making assumptions I possibly shouldn't be making.
If you aren't sold on the ST at all you could drop them and Guardsman Marbo and take a third Valkyrie or Vendetta and another Veteran Squad. I think the ST's would be more helpful to you though.
Agreed, Take two storm trooper squads if youre going to take any at all. Good suggestion. I normally dont like stormies, I just dont see the appeal? Anyone care to persuade me?
37,500 pts Daemon Army of the Gods
35,000 pts - X - Iron Tenth
15,000pts - Firehawks
7,000 pts - Nighthaunt
Dkok - 1850
Deep strike, pinning first round hits, pistols so they can fire and assault. Over all I've always found them useful, they're about as useful so a howling banshee only at mid-range rather then CQB. The only problem I've ever had was the WS3 and for some reason even with their bad rep, as soon as they hit the board the enemy fires everything at them.
I've always liked the idea of dropping 20-30 of these guys behind enemy lines, firing, pinning and assaulting.
"A good soldier obeys without question.
A good officer commands without doubt."
Good idea on giving the plasma vets lasguns, they won't be assulting if the plasma shoots so might as well get extra range if they can.
And what I was thinking was that each Valkyrie squadron would take a melta vet squad and a CCS, and then the 2 plasma squads would go in the vendettas.
I just tried dropping the plasma pistols and having 2 of the 5 man storm trooper squads, and it puts me at 1855 -_-
So I'm thinking of dropping the vox on the plasma squads since they'll be a little more independent and not being baby sat by the CCS all the time like the melta vets will.
So it would look something like this:
HQ: Company Command Squad
--3 meltas
--Astropath
--Vox
Company Command Squad
--3 meltas
--Officer of the Fleet
--Vox
Valkyrie Squadron
--Valkyrie w/ missile pods
--Valkyrie w/ missile pods
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Making some progress I think. Opinions on this one?
That looks like a nice solid list. Your Valkyries taking on hordes, your Vendettas dropping in and taking out tanks or MCs. Then assaulting meltas and ranged plasma with strong vox orders. Oh, lets not forget Stormtroopers and Marbo, drop them in to take out anything heavy your vets can't stop.
Over all, very nice. Easily expanded to 2k points if you want to as well, could add more stormtroopers, voxs to your last two squads if you wanted, or heavy bolters to the valks/dettas if you wanted some flavor. Not many people go for them, but for 6x str 5 shots at 10 points, I feel it's a bargain.
"A good soldier obeys without question.
A good officer commands without doubt."
I think I would honestly go two Squads of Vendettas and one Valkyrie squad. You really do not want to suicide your Vendettas/Valks either, as your putting them in assault and melta range. Sit back and move 6" and shoot.
You will find out soon enough why this is not a common list when you get shot... read the Squadron rules to understand the pain you will be dealing with.
I would do your breakdown as such...
Vendetta Squadron
CCS Plasma Vets
Vendetta Squadron
CCS Plasma Vets
Valkyrie Squadron
Melta Vets
Melta Vets
This list is pretty much capped out, as adding more vehicles/troops screws you more and your still restricted to 3 targets a turn. A 1500pt version or less is probably more of an ideal size where your down to 3-4 vehicles. Maybe when 6th Ed comes out the Force Org Chart will change.
Been playing 40k on and off since 89.
Armies...
Orks, Eldar, Lamentors, Pre-Heresy EC, CSM EC, and IG.
BlkTom wrote:I think I would honestly go two Squads of Vendettas and one Valkyrie squad. You really do not want to suicide your Vendettas/Valks either, as your putting them in assault and melta range. Sit back and move 6" and shoot.
You will find out soon enough why this is not a common list when you get shot... read the Squadron rules to understand the pain you will be dealing with.
Alright, rant time. BlkTom, this is not directed personally at you. What follows is my opinion, everyone feel free to disregard.
I see this kind of comment a lot and I'm not buying it. I'll grant you that the army build is more fragile than is desirable, but part of the reason you see it doing so bad is you are doing it wrong.
Lets get some definitions out of the way real quick:
1) Tactics: How you use your Army on the Table. Both encompassing the whole Game and individual Turns.
2) Strategy: How you build your Army list and your overall "plan" for how Games will go.
This army is nothing like Mech Guard or other Mech lists. Your tactics AND your strategy from the outset is entirely different. Bringing more Vendettas is more inline with your typical Mech strategy, and its part of why this list can fail. Spectacularly.
Why does Mech IG take Vendettas? They have anti-horde covered with Heavy Flamers on every Chimera, Basilisks, and other things. They have anti-tank covered if they can close the distance to the enemy tanks to use those Meltaguns. They have fire suppression pretty handily in the form of a few Hydras usually. The only thing they are really lacking is being able to destroy enemy tanks/MCs from a distance. 130 Points for a Vendetta is a bargain for the list.
What's the problem with doing this here? There are few:
1) You are bringing 4-5 Veteran Squads. They aren't very durable on their own. Their only strength is being able to work together and the amount of firepower they can dump out.
2) You have a total of 3 vehicle units. Slowing down even one squadron could leave you with up to a third of your army left behind, reducing the firepower being dumped out.
3) With only 3 vehicle units to choose from, your choice is important. By taking Vendettas you are denying your self access to tools you need and limiting your real strength: your mobility.
4) Your transports can move 24" and over terrain, and have a Scout move. Getting into range with your Meltaguns to take out any MCs/Tanks is not going to be anywhere near as difficult as it is for Mech IG. You don't need a lot of ranged firepower.
5) The point of AirCav is not the vehicles. That's where its different than Mech. In Mech, you take units that give you Tanks. AirCav, the vehicles are taken for your troops to be able to rapidly respond to the enemy and for limited air support.
6) AirCav is not Hybrid. Yes, it has both Infantry and Vehicles, but its not a mix of Mech and Foot lists. Its its own beast.
So, you have to look to your needs. What are you trying to do with the army? AirCav capitalizes on the mobility and deployment options of the Valkyrie/Vendetta. Your goal is to close in, either to a weak flank of the enemy army or to an object he is holding, disembark, and destroy the enemy. You also have to shore up any weaknesses with your forces. Numerical superiority is out the window, so you need some equalizers.
Valkyries give them the most benefit here. They can move 12" and fire everything. Everything includes two large blast AP5 templates, perfect for gutting hordes. Your enemy is going to have, at most, one turn of firing before your transports have delivered their cargo. The Veterans can handle any armor in the game better than the Vendetta can. What they can't handle is 30 Ork Boyz or Termagaunts swarming them.
Vendettas are useful, to other armies. Leaving a large portion of your army behind so you can pop a total of one or two tanks (three if you took all Vendettas) is just gimping your army in this case. Sitting back and moving a whole 6" is just not a real option. Your troops need to be close enough to support one another, you can't afford to be hit on a 4+ in close combat, and it doesn't add any considerable amount of firepower to your arsenal.
Valkyries could do it just as well, if you are thinking of moving 12" with the Vendettas. Just upgrade that Multi-laser to a TLLC. Now you have the best of both worlds. Just drop Marbo or the Storm Troopers and you can take it on all your Valkyries. There are no rules against firing weapons that can't hurt a vehicle at a vehicle. Fire that TLLC at the enemy tanks and let the MRP scatter onto his bubble units. Make sure you focus fire on the tanks that can do the most damage to you. Its all you can do.
Anyways, I don't think i was as clear as i could be. The point I'm trying to make is that this type of list works differently from the get go. You can't always bring ideas that work great in one army into another and expect it to still be awesome. This is one of the few cases where I really think this is true. It just screams "you are doing it wrong" to me if you try to make it work with all Vendettas. As BlkTom said, "you will find out soon enough why its not a common list" if you try to do it that way.
Cowmonaught, I'd agree. I'd never really thought about the Valkyrie much, but I see what you mean. Though I think I'd still try 2x Vendettas and 4x Valkyries. Deep strike the Vendettas to hit armor from behind with the full effect of 6x twin-linked lascannons.
I guess it really depends on the situation.
A few questions, I know this should be posted in the rules, but maybe someone here will know. Can a vehicle take orders? Also, can you deep strike your whole force, or do you have to keep something at your side of the board? Just something thats never come up and I just thought about it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/08 18:30:58
"A good soldier obeys without question.
A good officer commands without doubt."
1 Vendetta Squadron wouldn't be so bad, but going overboard with them and taking 2-3 squadrons would be. Also, if they Deep Strike they count as moving 12" and can only fire one Lascannon each.
Vehicles can't take Orders. Only "non-vehicles" can take it.
cowmonaut ive never looked at it that way would you be better off grav shuteing the vets or waiting a turn and dropping them right next to their target ?
Grav-Chutes is probably one of the abilities of your army that you just won't use much. I can see some circumstances where I would have to chance it, but usually you can just disembark normally.
Put it to you this way: You have Scout. If the enemy deploys anything on the table on Turn 1 you can move flat out 24" (gaining a 4+ save) then move another 12" on your turn. The board is only 48" deep, so even if he's right on his table edge you are likely to be in Melta range when you disembark ( 24+12+2+6== 44"; most vehicles are 4-5" long). If the enemy doesn't deploy on the table, you can do dastardly things like block his table edge, or otherwise be in a holding pattern waiting for his reserves to come in.
Grave Chutes just won't be used very often unless you are daring and like taking changes.
Beautiful.. *sheds a tear* theres so much versatility in this list. If you need to jump up to to 2,000 pts add 2x hydras to get 2k even! I will be running this list thursday and ill let you know how it goes. Thats awesome. I think we might have worked out the kinks. It combines orders, lots of guard, mechs, fast attack, heavy shooters, melta and plas... this list has it all....
Also ill be posting up the rules for my Firebird variant. I essentially replace two wing mounted twinlinked las cannons with twin linked hellhound cannons (flamestorm cannons) that fire 6" out using the hellhound rules. Instead of a twin linked las cannon on the nose i attached a twin linked heavy flamer firing at 3" out. Also made the option to upgrade the sponson mounted bolters to regular flamers (fired from the sponson) if you choose to pay for them (normal cost of bolter spons)
Its awesome! Ive played several games and its PERFECTLY balanced. I originally had it at 12" but that was a little broken. The fluff was something out of the SoB codex, when they would have the guard work with them to purge the unclean... with massive amounts of fire. Im going to run this list with 2 valks, 2 vens 2 firebirds and 2 hydras
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/09 00:05:36
37,500 pts Daemon Army of the Gods
35,000 pts - X - Iron Tenth
15,000pts - Firehawks
7,000 pts - Nighthaunt
Dkok - 1850
Awesome, I look forward to hearing your report. I will be testing it as soon as there's enough people with valks in the shop for me to scavenge up 6 lol And I have to agree with cow, I always used to look as valks at being bad, but that was when I played foot guard. Looking at them now, when I have no other source of anti-horde weaponry, they're fantastic.
As for the grav-chutes, those will be saved for desperate measures only. A 5 man stormie team with airborne assault would have no problem with it, a 10 man vet squad would be a bit more risky...
So far, as anyone play tested this? Or is anyone planning to besides me and xSoulgrinderx? I'm curious as to how this list will do, I must say though, it looks rather solid if played right.
Valkyries could do it just as well, if you are thinking of moving 12" with the Vendettas. Just upgrade that Multi-laser to a TLLC.
Hey Cow... how are you getting a TLLC on the Valk? That is pretty magical if this was possible.
And I totally disagree with you on points 4+.
Everytime you go 'Flat Out' (24") you can not shoot and you have to Grav Chut incert your troops to use them. If they scatter into /anything/... terrain, enemy model, anything... they are destroyed. You also have to drop the troops /behind/ the skimmer... not to the side, not infront...but behind.
Rushing up and having a 2/3s chance of scattering , possibly into your own vehicle and losing your troops and having your vehicle 'hanging out' now in front of the enemy is a waste. I am sorry, but to think 6 Vet squads are going to crush your enemy in one round of firing... just not going to happen.
'AirCav' is a glass hammer, no real 'buts' about it. /IF/ you can go first and /IF/ your lucky on your scatter and you do some damage, you probably will not survive the counterstrike. This is why it is not a real competitive list.
And yes Cow, I understand the mentality behind it. But to consider your transports as 'throw away', your throwing away 780pts, meaning your attempting to fight 1850pts with 1070pts. Those vehicles are nearly half your points.
Anyways... 6th Ed may have overwatch, making a rush list like this moot anyways.
Been playing 40k on and off since 89.
Armies...
Orks, Eldar, Lamentors, Pre-Heresy EC, CSM EC, and IG.
BlkTom wrote:
Hey Cow... how are you getting a TLLC on the Valk? That is pretty magical if this was possible.
You are right, an oversight on my part. It is just a Lascannon, not Twin-Linked. At the same time though, you have a squadron of 2 or 3 Valkyries with BS3. They can only fire at one target. 50/50 odds to hit gives you 1-2 hits and S9 leaves you wrecking most armor anyways.
BlkTom wrote:And I totally disagree with you on points 4+.
Everytime you go 'Flat Out' (24") you can not shoot and you have to Grav Chut incert your troops to use them. If they scatter into /anything/... terrain, enemy model, anything... they are destroyed. You also have to drop the troops /behind/ the skimmer... not to the side, not infront...but behind.
You are missing the point entirely I'm afraid. I'm not talking GravChute insertion. The vehicles themselves are fast enough on their own to put you where you want to be. Look at the facts:
1) Your opponent is either deploying on the table or reserving his army. You could be doing either as well depending who goes first.
2) The Turn 1 threat range of a Veteran Squad in a Valkyrie is 42". 24" for Scout move, 12" for normal move, 2" for disembark, and 6" for Melta/Demo range. The table is only 72"x48". Look at the deployment types:
- Pitched Battle (24" "no mans land" in the middle of the board, you can deploy within 12" of the middle of the board. This means you can be at the edge of the enemy deployment zone before Turn 1)
- Spear Head (12" radius circle in the center of the board with the armies deployed kitty-corner. Again, you can be on the edge of the enemy's deployment zone, or even inside his deployment zone before Turn 1)
- Dawn of War (you start off the table so no scout move. You may as well reserve and Outflank with your army. More on that later)
If your enemy deploys on the table, you will be able to strike wherever you damn well please on Turn 1. If he reserves, you can setup wherever you damn well please. Your two Flat Out moves allow you to be right up on his board edge so you can prevent him from even getting on the table with some units or wait for them to arrive piecemeal, where you can easily pick them apart.
If you Outflank, chances are you are coming on the table side you want (Astropath remember, so its 3+ for you to come in on Turn 2, and Squadrons are coming in at a time giving you half or a third of your force on a successful roll). The enemy will have something in range usually, and if not its only one turn of shooting you have to weather. Which brings us to point 3:
3) Except for Hydra Flak Tanks, you will always have a 4+ save on Turn 1 if you deploy on the table and possibly if you Outflank, on top of your Extra Armor and AV12. So if the enemy hits (lets assume MEQ and so he has a 67% chance to hit), and if he actually damages the vehicle (S7 would only glance/penetrate 33% of the time for each hit, S8 50% of the time), you still have a 50% chance of outright nullifying it. Then they have to either roll a 6 (for glancing) or a 4+ to drop just one bird.
Statistically, this is a really tough target to bring down. Even with the Vehicle Squadron rules. I'll give you two common examples from Space Marine opponents: x5 Missile Launcher toting Long Fangs and a Razorback with TLLC.
The Long Fangs: Statically, 5 Krak Missiles fired with BS4 have a 28% chance of destroying a Valkyrie that is in a Squadron. To stop you from delivering the troops they absolutely have to destroy one. They have a 5% chance of destroying it via Glancing hit. So what? 33% chance total that they might destroy one Valkyrie in a Squadron.
The Razorback: Statically the TLLC has an 88% chance to hit which seems promising initially. But once you factor int he chance to penetrate, nullify, and the roll needed on the damage table you end up with an 11% chance to blow up a single Valkyrie in a Squadron if it moved Flat Out. Whopping 1% chance to destroy it via Glancing hit for a total of 12%.
Want a third example? Dreadnought with x2 TLAC: 15% chance to destroy via Penetration, 5% via Glancing so a total of 20% chance you'll lose a single Valkyrie in a Squadron.
Against BS3 the odds just get worse.
You only need to make it through one turn. With the way most armies seem to be built these days you are probably losing a bird or two (more against Hydras; they're a bit of a priority target). Its a war game, expect casualties. Their cargo isn't automatically lost though, and the rest of the squadron is still setting down on Turn 2. Odds are you'll have more than one Squadron (at least 2) on the table as well, all deploying your Veterans. Which brings us to the next point
BlkTom wrote:Rushing up and having a 2/3s chance of scattering , possibly into your own vehicle and losing your troops and having your vehicle 'hanging out' now in front of the enemy is a waste. I am sorry, but to think 6 Vet squads are going to crush your enemy in one round of firing... just not going to happen.
As mentioned before, not talking Grav Chute insertion. That's a very limited capability, but its nice to have if you need it. But again, you seem to be missing the point a little here.
There is very little reason to expect that you cannot hit an enemy flank hard with 6 units (4 Vets & 2 CCS being my favorite, or just plain 6 Vets). You aren't charging up the middle, you want to fight a portion of the enemy army. His own forces will be in his way as much as anything. As will any wrecks from vehicles you may have hit.
If you want to continue to disagree on that, so be it. I can't make you visualize just how much distance on a standard table you are capable of covering with that Scout move. Most of the time you can capitalize on it to your advantage, and if you can't (e.g. Dawn of War) you have 2 or 3 other options of deploying by holding in Reserve (Reserve, Deep Strike, Outflank). The fact is you are going to be able to strike on your first or second turn and be within 6" of the enemy.
And what happens when you do? Depends on the enemy honestly. If its a full on Mech list, your Demo Charge (what with the parking lot tactics and all) and Meltaguns are going to de-mech the opponent very quickly (especially if you are using orders to Twin-Link; jumping BS4 from 66-67% accuracy to 88-89% is pretty handy; not to mention how it affects the scatter on the Demo charge), and then your Valkyries can rain hell upon all the now exposed and bunched up troops. If its a foot list, how much damage is done depends on cover (which if you bring CCS you can negate of course) and how they are deployed.
We aren't talking about blowing up the enemy army in one shot. We're talking about severely crippling the flank you are striking, just a portion of the enemy force. The return fire may be terrible, but you can also Go To Ground to capitalize on any cover saves (or make a 6+ one which never hurt anything) and use your Orders the next turn to Get Back In The Fight. The only thing to really worry about is being charged by the enemy, which is why I want to bring Straken for one CCS in my list. Giving your guys Counter-Attack will let you do a surprising amount of damage to the remnants.
BlkTom wrote:
'AirCav' is a glass hammer, no real 'buts' about it. /IF/ you can go first and /IF/ your lucky on your scatter and you do some damage, you probably will not survive the counterstrike. This is why it is not a real competitive list.
And yes Cow, I understand the mentality behind it. But to consider your transports as 'throw away', your throwing away 780pts, meaning your attempting to fight 1850pts with 1070pts. Those vehicles are nearly half your points.
I don't think you do understand the mentality. The entire point is mobility and deployment options and a sudden strike at a weak point. You seem locked in thinking of it as a one trick pony. Its not. Deployment is this army's most important phase and it has everything at its disposal except Infiltrate. Once the game starts you have one goal, but many ways to get there.
And yes, those vehicles are nearly half their points. You pay for the flexibility in Deployment and how quick you can move. You also pay for the weapons they bring which can truly level the playing field in not-insignificant ways. They aren't "throw aways" either. I don't think I even used that term, and I certainly don't consider them such. They have a few purposes, but all of them are secondary to delivering your Veterans. Again, its what makes it different than Mech IG lists, where Chimeras act as bunkers and not transports.
BlkTom wrote:Anyways... 6th Ed may have overwatch, making a rush list like this moot anyways.
Because rumors have always been accurate, and GW of all companies is going to rock the boat by drastically changing all the rules to their game. I mean its only had the story line in stasis for 20 years and the way the shooting weapons, glancing/damaging vehicles, or even hitting/wounding things in close combat and armor saves hasn't changed since probably before 3rd Edition (I started on 3rd so I can't tell you for sure).
Certain things about the game are immutable at this point, unless they scrap the whole thing and GW isn't the company that makes those kind of big jumps. I can see things that would make this list less compelling, but chances are you just have to rely on one of the many other tactics available for you to get to the enemy. Until the next IG Codex there isn't a whole lot to worry about.
Good list!
Its great advice, and ive been working out the kinks in my air cav and this post is most 
Orks, 
Eldar, 
Lamentors, 
Pre-Heresy EC, 
CSM EC, and 
IG.