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In the same vein as the Falklands thread, I ask the following:

Do the British have a right to Gibraltar?

Personally I think its strategic importance is paramount, so it shan't be abandoned, but do we have much of a right to it?

I am sketchy, but I think the territory was won by a treaty, but I don't know if the present day wishes of the inhabitants are valid.

The original 'native' inhabitants fled as refugees after the British conquest, I may be wrong, but aren't the present Gibraltese descended from British settlers? If so, I am not sure their claim is valid.

At any rate, discuss and perhaps illuminate me! Should Gibraltar be handed back to the Spanish 200 odd years on from its acquisition?

Gibraltar is an iconic symbol of the British Empire's yesteryears.

Did you see Hong Kong as such when control was handed back over after the treaty expired for how long the British controlled the city?

It was won in the War of the Spanish Succession and has been a strategically vital Royal Navy base ever since.

The natives are pro-Britain, so there are two legal grounds for maintaining possession.

That said, there are other strategically vital bases that have been handed back, Malta being a good example. OTOH, Spain does not need Gibraltar since they have other ports.

Since Spain and the UK are firm allies now, it should be possible to find a way forwards, though if the Gibraltarians are anti-Spain that perhaps would be the deciding factor.

Spain don't care about Gibralter the way Argentina cares about the Falklands, as Kilkrazy said the UK and Spain are pretty close allies, it's not really similar to the Falklands.

The Gibraltarians are fiercely pro-British. Under pressure from Spain, they took a referendum on whether they wished to continue to be British or not, the result was 98% in favour.

Historical Fact:- Spain raised Gibraltar as at the UN as an issue immediately after Argentina raising the Falklands.

Top tip:- Gibraltarians get really hacked off if you walk up to them and ask if they're Spanish. It's like asking a Canadian if they're American, or a New Zealander if they're Australian.

Why would we give it back to Spain? Just because it's part of the Iberian peninsula doesn't make it Spanish property. I mean, Portugal's part of the peninsula too...

It's not like we're demanding Calais back or anything, or the Republic of Ireland.

Ketara wrote:The Gibraltarians are fiercely pro-British. Under pressure from Spain, they took a referendum on whether they wished to continue to be British or not, the result was 98% in favour.

And that's why Gibraltar remains British; the people want to be. Ultimately, you kind of have to respect their wishes.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Ketara wrote:The Gibraltarians are fiercely pro-British. Under pressure from Spain, they took a referendum on whether they wished to continue to be British or not, the result was 98% in favour.

And that's why Gibraltar remains British; the people want to be. Ultimately, you kind of have to respect their wishes.

The rest of the world doesn't seem to agree :( otherwise they'd stop telling us to negoitate with Argentina over the Falklands?

Why they cant just talk to the Falklands themselves about what they want and be done with it is beyond me.

obsidianaura wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Ketara wrote:The Gibraltarians are fiercely pro-British. Under pressure from Spain, they took a referendum on whether they wished to continue to be British or not, the result was 98% in favour.

And that's why Gibraltar remains British; the people want to be. Ultimately, you kind of have to respect their wishes.

The rest of the world doesn't seem to agree :( otherwise they'd stop telling us to negoitate with Argentina over the Falklands?

Why they cant just talk to the Falklands themselves about what they want and be done with it is beyond me.

*shrug* the assumption that, as a British isle, their opinion might be biased or something?

Henners91 wrote:In the same vein as the Falklands thread, I ask the following:

Do the British have a right to Gibraltar?

Personally I think its strategic importance is paramount, so it shan't be abandoned, but do we have much of a right to it?

I am sketchy, but I think the territory was won by a treaty, but I don't know if the present day wishes of the inhabitants are valid.

The original 'native' inhabitants fled as refugees after the British conquest, I may be wrong, but aren't the present Gibraltese descended from British settlers? If so, I am not sure their claim is valid.

At any rate, discuss and perhaps illuminate me! Should Gibraltar be handed back to the Spanish 200 odd years on from its acquisition?

Yes. We bought it.

If you buy some land you have a right to it under the terms you agree.

Sonophos wrote:

Henners91 wrote:In the same vein as the Falklands thread, I ask the following:

Do the British have a right to Gibraltar?

Personally I think its strategic importance is paramount, so it shan't be abandoned, but do we have much of a right to it?

I am sketchy, but I think the territory was won by a treaty, but I don't know if the present day wishes of the inhabitants are valid.

The original 'native' inhabitants fled as refugees after the British conquest, I may be wrong, but aren't the present Gibraltese descended from British settlers? If so, I am not sure their claim is valid.

At any rate, discuss and perhaps illuminate me! Should Gibraltar be handed back to the Spanish 200 odd years on from its acquisition?

Yes. We bought it.

If you buy some land you have a right to it under the terms you agree.

And this gets the "I fail at history" award. England supported the Pretender Charles III to the Throne of Spain and conquered the place in the name of said pretender. When his bid failed and the French backed King (Philip V) won the Throne, the English decided to keep the place and stablish a Royal Navy base there. By the Treaty of Utrech of 1713, Gibraltar was ceded to England "in perpetuity" with the clause that should England renounce to the administration of the place it would revert back to Spain. So it was never ever sold and in the current climate the Spanish government is happy with one of the 2 following scenarios, the UK keeps the place under the Treaty of Utrech, meaning btw that Gibraltar has no territorial waters and for example bunkering, a profitable activity and a source of ecological problems in neighbouring Spanish beaches is not legal, or gives it back to Spain.

Item plus for Ketara, the issues Spain has with Gibraltar have been brought to the UN before the Falklands (as early as 1963 IIRC), and Spain has been trying to get the place back since the 18th century

UN General Assembly 2231 wrote:any colonial situation which partially or completely destroys the national unity and territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and especially with paragraph 6 of Resolution 1514 (XV) of the General Assembly [...] Invites the Governments of Spain and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to resume without delay the negotiations provided for in General Assembly Resolutions 2070 (XX) and 2231 (XXI), with a view to putting an end to the colonial situation in Gibraltar and to safeguarding the interests of the population.

In addition this same charter resolution points out that the wishes of the people of Gibraltar are moot, only their interests are to be considered and supposedly safeguarded. The moment London decides to leave the place is the moment it goes back to Spain and that´s the end of it. Gibraltarians of course think and wish otherwise.

So you want the Rock, keep it but read some history first and not the tabloids so you don´t go saying that you own the place because you bought it, ceded and bought are very different verbs.

M.

Thanks for the history lesson. I knew some one would educate me if I sounded ignorant enough.

Glad I was helpful clearing the misunderstandings created by the tabloids.

M.

Gibraltar, now is nothing more than a naval base, an army barracks and a dirty great rock to run up when its ridiculously warm, and somewhere to throw monkeys off when they steal your aviators (which they do by the way)

The people may see themselves as British, but in honesty, its probably the most european place in the whole of europe.

Stategically its important because it controls both the entrance to Africa, and Southern Europe, oh and there is a small island called cyprus or something not far from it....

tbh, to me, its nothing more than a battle honour on our colours, and somewhere to buy cheap booze whilst talking to a french lady with a very deep voice called "Pierre" and a way of getting a cheap Beejy off deaf betty, thats it