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So we always see what the Space Marines were like before the heresy, but what about the IG? Were they any different, or have they changed in the 10,000 years since the heresy?

They were the Imperial Army back then.
IIRC there were no commissars but otherwise it was still pretty much masses of men and tanks. No idea what tanks they used though, presumably the Leman Russ wasn't around back then.

As far as I can remember, the only actual studio information pretty much stated that both the Guard and the Navy were a single organization back then ("Imperial Army"), and that the ground forces were used mostly to secure planets already taken by the advancing Space Marine legions.

Maybe you can find some Black Library author's more detailed interpretation in one of the Horus Heresy novels?

Lynata wrote:As far as I can remember, the only actual studio information pretty much stated that both the Guard and the Navy were a single organization back then ("Imperial Army"), and that the ground forces were used mostly to secure planets already taken by the advancing Space Marine legions.

Maybe you can find some Black Library author's more detailed interpretation in one of the Horus Heresy novels?

This is basically how it works in the Horus Heresy books as well.

Imperial Army provides support for the Astartes Legions, and detachments remain with worlds brought in compliance to stamp out further rebellion if it shows up.

Edit: I am pretty sure the Leman Russ was in service pre-Heresy as well.

Hmm, alright then, I was considering pre heresy guard, but I'll stick with SM

The Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy were united under an organization known as the Imperial Army. Its main duty was controlling/garrisoning worlds taken by the Astartes, who did by far most of the fighting in the Great Crusade era. The Imperial Army slowly evolved as the Imperium grew and grew.

During the Horus Heresy, it split in half with 1 side supporting Heresy. Since local IA generals had access to vast fleet of warships on top of their armies, they were able to go to planet to planet spreading destruction. This is why the Imperial Guard and Navy are separate institutions today, to prevent a heretical general from being able to transport his army.

As for what equipment they used, the old venerable lasgun was still the standard weapon. I believe Rhinos were also commonplace too. There were also older weapons that are rarely seen today, such as the Valdor Heavy Tank and Minotaur self-propelled artillery.

Most of the Super Heavy tank designs such as the Baneblade and Shadowsword were also in more widespread use, and "rare" technologically advanced vehicles similar to the Leman Russ Executioner and Manticore were far more common due to a greater grasp on technology.

As been said before it was the IMperial Army (both the Guard and Navy together).

I think their equipment was similar to current guard equipment, Las weapons (pistol, gun, cannon), a few plasma weapons maybe, and possibly the inclusion of bolters (maybe for higher ups)

vehicale wise they would be a mix of space marine and Guard machines. Rhinos for transports, Malcador tanks (the good ol Leman Russ wasn't built until during the heresy i think, will have to double check) , the Baneblade was always there (only varients like the shadow sword existed, others did not). f

or air transport im not sure. i think the thunderhawk would be the standard. then again im not sure when the Valkarie or other ships like it were built.

The 3rd edition IG codex mentions that early Imperial Armies processed mutants and grav-vehicals, indicating a greater use of mutants (becasue the Guard still use mutants, so to find it strange must be due to large numbers) and the possibility of Hover Leman Russes...

Grav Russes...I want!

Some of the HH novels shed good insight into it, Legion springs to mind. It seems to me that the individual regiments themselves were much more independent and varied than they are in the 41st millenium, or at least the ones in that book were wildly different from anything I've seen thus far.

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Everybody's mostly covered it, but one correction:

Even during the Great Crusade, normal humans still did most of the fighting in the form of the Imperial Army. The Legions were just too limited in number. Sure, the Legions formed the spearhead of many crusade fleets, but they were often spread thin throughout them, or massed together in a few places to take on especially challenging planets. The Army wasn't just for mopping up/garrison duty, they were on the front lines, conquering new planets, often without any Legionary support at all.

The Leman Russ was in service and the Imperial army used Land Raiders.

The Leman Russ Executioner (at least) was around as early as the Great Crusade, according to the 5th Edition IG Codex.

In addition, single regiments combined both infantry, tanks and artillery, which is something IG regiments don't do. Those are split off into their own regiments so that if, say, an infantry regiment rebels, it cannot call upon artillery or tanks to support it.
The old Imperial Army could, and that was why it became imperative to change that after the Heresy.

Generally all mentioned, but the HH books are really your best bet - particularly Legion but also A Thousand Sons.

The basic plan is similar to now - each regimient is different depending on where it came from. However, there was no central Departmento Munitorum, so the regiments were even MORE varied than is usual today, and also varied in size.



It seems that the massive amounts of genetic conditioning and psychics in use during the Strife Era carried over into the military formations of the Crusade, and were tolerated much more at the time... A bit weirder than most IG armies of the 41st Millenium, no?

ArbitorIan wrote:Generally all mentioned, but the HH books are really your best bet - particularly Legion but also A Thousand Sons.

The basic plan is similar to now - each regimient is different depending on where it came from. However, there was no central Departmento Munitorum, so the regiments were even MORE varied than is usual today, and also varied in size.

Spoiler:

The Geno Five-Two Chiliad in 'Legion' are a force of 1000 companies of gene-bred uterine soldiers, led by hetmen from brought in from other regiments, and commanded by a bloodline of limited psychic 'Uxors' who provide overall tactical control. The gene-soldiers are bred from the uxors' ovaries. The regular soliders use skimmers, twin-barrelled las-carbines, firepoles, and are supplied with a narcotic called 'peck' to keep them alert.

They are one of the larger forces in a crusade which has no attached Astartes. Other regiments include the Outremars, who are led by a hereditary bloodline of dwarves, and the Regnault Thorns, who have psycho-receptive spikes on their armour.

It seems that the massive amounts of genetic conditioning and psychics in use during the Strife Era carried over into the military formations of the Crusade, and were tolerated much more at the time... A bit weirder than most IG armies of the 41st Millenium, no?

So they were almost like modern Chaos Guard? Not quite so purist and opposed to mutation?

TheAngrySquig wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:Generally all mentioned, but the HH books are really your best bet - particularly Legion but also A Thousand Sons.

The basic plan is similar to now - each regimient is different depending on where it came from. However, there was no central Departmento Munitorum, so the regiments were even MORE varied than is usual today, and also varied in size.

Spoiler:

The Geno Five-Two Chiliad in 'Legion' are a force of 1000 companies of gene-bred uterine soldiers, led by hetmen from brought in from other regiments, and commanded by a bloodline of limited psychic 'Uxors' who provide overall tactical control. The gene-soldiers are bred from the uxors' ovaries. The regular soliders use skimmers, twin-barrelled las-carbines, firepoles, and are supplied with a narcotic called 'peck' to keep them alert.

They are one of the larger forces in a crusade which has no attached Astartes. Other regiments include the Outremars, who are led by a hereditary bloodline of dwarves, and the Regnault Thorns, who have psycho-receptive spikes on their armour.

It seems that the massive amounts of genetic conditioning and psychics in use during the Strife Era carried over into the military formations of the Crusade, and were tolerated much more at the time... A bit weirder than most IG armies of the 41st Millenium, no?

So they were almost like modern Chaos Guard? Not quite so purist and opposed to mutation?

It wasn't so much mutation as genetic manipulation; the armies seem to have been expressly modified for their purpose in some cases.

That's actually pretty chill, so would an army of pre heresy guard look good?

I would expect so.
I imagine that they would look pretty pro.

I have to stop letting the Internet convince me to do things, it's bad for my wallet

I'd assume that they'd also have much larger access to more advanced technology than they do in the game today. Though this has already been mentioned a little I'd point out that guard regiments not being as standard would also imply that the their wouldn't be that many mainstream tanks, or at least in lesser usage or limited to certain areas of space. By this I mean the Leman Russ wouldn't be the standard tank for all crusade forces, you'd find regiments fielding much larger numbers of equiptment from local forgeworlds. The munitorum wasn't as concerned with the whole idea of standardisation I guess, thus you'd probably see armies of walkers and powered armoured troopers abounds, and for that matter troops that fit a lot more into the 21st centuary's idea of sci fi soldiers (ie Starship Troopers/ Germline) than what we see in 40k.

So would you say GK Warrior Acolytes in carapace armor with hot shots would be the base troop?

Wyrmalla wrote:I'd assume that they'd also have much larger access to more advanced technology than they do in the game today. Though this has already been mentioned a little I'd point out that guard regiments not being as standard would also imply that the their wouldn't be that many mainstream tanks, or at least in lesser usage or limited to certain areas of space. By this I mean the Leman Russ wouldn't be the standard tank for all crusade forces, you'd find regiments fielding much larger numbers of equiptment from local forgeworlds. The munitorum wasn't as concerned with the whole idea of standardisation I guess, thus you'd probably see armies of walkers and powered armoured troopers abounds, and for that matter troops that fit a lot more into the 21st centuary's idea of sci fi soldiers (ie Starship Troopers/ Germline) than what we see in 40k.

IIRCin books most mentioned "basic" tank of Heresy era was Baneblade and they were pretty common.


As for exotic/non-standartized equipment...actually i think it's not the case('cept overall higher tech level), more likely it's other way around for frontline units after initial decade or so of Crusade - you just won't be able to supply your mobile forces around the galaxy with non-standart ammo etc, so pretty fast your weapon will be basic designs while more exotic ones pushed to specialist/ceremonial roles. So the further from Terra and first conquests guards you've get , the less chance you'll see something exotic. Most mentioned "gene-breeds in books for ex. are TERRAN. Though how IA would look if these "stroggs" from "Prospero burns" submitted to Emperor - i have no idea (afair in book it's they who initiated hostility while terran commanders and AM had no objections to classify them "human, advanced civilization without non-tolerable tech- or gene- deviancies" and offered to join Empire)

I haven't read Prospero Burns, whats a strogg?

Joey wrote:They were the Imperial Army back then.
IIRC there were no commissars but otherwise it was still pretty much masses of men and tanks. No idea what tanks they used though, presumably the Leman Russ wasn't around back then.

And Imperial Army includes BOTH landbound troops (present day IG) and an armada of spacefaring vessels (Imperial Navy today)

I've read somewhere (i believe it was the Old IG Codex). citing that the Emperor himself assigned "Civil" servants to watch those military commanders hailed from previously available armed forces (Ex. Merican Fusiliers, the successor to the U.S. Army.. i think) of the Old Terra itself. those civil servants are tasked to limit those officier's power and ensure that no one in the Armed forces will conspire against the Emperor and stage a Coup d'Etat. nor to defect to the local warlords when it comes to the crusade and the battle takes place in human-inhabited planets.

Commissars are in fact politian, NOT soldier.

About weapons. by then the IA relied HEAVILY on superheavies. a 'street sized vehicle' didn't become available until sometimes during the HH (i guess much of them fight alot like WW1 troops, the earliest MBT was Malcador but it's actually a Helepolises with Diesel engine :lol: , not an agile engine of WW2 ) .. However I don't really know when do Leman Russ and Chimaera-based vehicles become available? but i believe the earlier Leman Russ MBTs are mounted with Plasma main gun instead of 120mm cannon.

when do they begin to use Lasguns? In the crusade. did they still use AK-47 as service rifle? (AK47 is a simple assault rifle, to the point that someone said a space pioneer should have ones)

Lone Cat wrote:when do they begin to use Lasguns? In the crusade. did they still use AK-47 as service rifle? (AK47 is a simple assault rifle, to the point that someone said a space pioneer should have ones)

I think they used autoguns, which were basically AKs, but angrier

TheAngrySquig wrote:I haven't read Prospero Burns, whats a strogg?

Strogg are Quake 2's race of evil cyborgs

I'm not sure the technology is neccesarily more 'advance'd back then. What it was is more commonly available. They had more baneblades, they had antigravity vehicles, they had (I believe) Rhinos and Predators, etc. Back then the warp was alot calmer (so supply lines were more stable) and you had the Emperor and Primarchs to keep the AdMech and ADministratum honest (otherwise the AdMech would keep the good tech to themselves, and even if they didn't the Administratum through the Munitorum would keep all the useful stuff stockpiled because they think tech is more important than gear. Until your Muntiorum stockpile world falls to chaos that is.)

Technically the only thing stopping the Imperium from fielding AG vehicles and such now is politics and/or logistics. We know of lots of planets that (at the required levle of tech advancement) have fliers and AG vehicles and skimmers of all sorts (hell if you look in the Apocalypse stuff, the Vultures/Valkyiries use suspensors!) but the 'normal' IG supply lines probably don't carry the right parts to handle it (a ham fisted attempt at 'standardization'.) - so the IG either fields such vehicles until they break down, hope to come across a world or work out of a sector that has access to parts for that vehicle, or forgo use of grav vehicles and just go with wheeled and tracked vehicles. And sentinels.

IIRC as well there was a garrison regiment in one o fthe 3rd edition IG Codexes that was mentioned as having AG craft requisitioned form the local world they guarded, albeit in small numbers. (They also had troops trained in zero gee and had an insystem vessel for their personal use.)

chyron wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I haven't read Prospero Burns, whats a strogg?

The first described in book campaign of Space Wolves was against race of cyborgs ruled by some kind of internet forum-like direct democracy system. No surprise that as far as most political forums get it was totally chauvinistic and off-the-meds.
And to vivisect Imperial spaceship crew to then declare that cyborgs are true Old Terra genetic progeny while Terra-born humans are not, was very ...measured answer to offer of joining Imperium

That seems like going off a bit half-cocked, any deeper reason?

Don't forget Legio Cybernetica.