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Pretty simple question, who defends the Imperial ships? I am talking about the ones don't have the Space Marines on them. I mean there has to be regular human defending them, and wouldn't guys technically be marines? Or would they just be naval personal?

They talk about naval armsmen in one of the GG books (when they are defending the planet of the saint, the name escapes me...) during the space battle. Armed with shotguns and body armour they move to defend their ship in ordered squads and what not. probably what you are looking for

They would have stormtroopers wouldn't they?
I remember there being stormtrooper looking guys in Firewarrior.
And it would make sense. Boarding actions are pretty vicious and intense, so having highly trained operatives decked out in heavy armor and high powered weapons would be handy.

In retaliation to a boarding action I think the entire crew joins in. In the 3rd necron codex, there was a bit a of fluff referring to necron boarding actions, and it advised that all personnel should have access to heavy bolters instead of shotguns to counter any attacks by necron warriors.

They look like stormtroopers but I don't think they are. They aren't as highly trained as stormtroopers, more like normal guardsmen with shotguns and possible carapace armour, though I'm not sure on that.

EDIT: Nevermind.
I wish there was a delete post option...

Guys armed with shotguns. Seriously they haven't even lasguns. That's reserved for the officers.

Some WD (at least I think it was an issue of WD) had an article about the crews of Imperial warships (funny story, some Admiral proposed simply welding the airlocks shut once they are aboard because the men wouldn't need to get out again anyways), and Navy Armsmen were mentioned there. Basically they are normal "sailors" who are trusted enough to be handed the aforementioned shotguns and boarding armour and then go about enforcing discipline amongst the crew. In case of an attack, these guys are aided by the normal crew who are handed additional arms out of secure lockers, but most would have to use their work tools (hammers, plasma torches, etc) for melee because there's never enough guns to equip every single one of them.

That being said, this is only insofar GW is concerned. The franchise being what it is, there are various individual interpretations by the authors of licensed products that may deviate somewhat from the source material. For example, someone also mentioned the appearance of "Naval Stormtroopers" in one of Abnett's novels.

Beaviz81 wrote:Guys armed with shotguns. Seriously they haven't even lasguns. That's reserved for the officers.

This is chiefly because of a fire hazard and the threat of a weapon puncturing the hull, though. With shotguns, this risk is avoided.

I'm gonna look up a picture of the Armsmen - I recall Jes Goodwin having drawn some sketches.

[edit] There we go:

Yeah, it's been a while since I read it, but either the first or second GG trilogy has them in. I think they were described as being distinctive, I think grey fatigues and black carapace. Also, I think it mentioned them being extremely well trained and disciplined, being either just as elite, or not far off, Imperial Storm Troopers, but beyond the standard Guardsman in any case. Finally, I think they were defined as Navy, completely separate from the IG.

Personally, I think that it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the normal STs would all complete tours as part of a Naval detachment, seeing as they're already assumed to work closely with the IN via their Valkyrie airborne assault role. Seeing as they're multi-purpose combat specialists, designed for spear-heading assaults and behind-enemy-lines spec-ops, I'd agree with C. Spy and say they are perfectly placed for boarding actions (both repelling and storming).

Anfauglir wrote:Personally, I think that it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the normal STs would all complete tours as part of a Naval detachment, seeing as they're already assumed to work closely with the IN via their Valkyrie airborne assault role.

Purely going by GW fluff, the number of IG Storm Troopers is really, really, really low (fewer than the SoB, which are fewer than the Space Marines). But that being said, they are highly mobile, being shipped by the Navy from warzone to warzone all depending on where the platoon or company selected to reinforce the Imperial forces there is currently needed. It stands to reason that they would stand ready to assist the Navy Armsmen if the ship transporting them into and out of a warzone came under attack...

Lynata wrote:

Anfauglir wrote:Personally, I think that it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the normal STs would all complete tours as part of a Naval detachment, seeing as they're already assumed to work closely with the IN via their Valkyrie airborne assault role.

Purely going by GW fluff, the number of IG Storm Troopers is really, really, really low (fewer than the SoB, which are fewer than the Space Marines). But that being said, they are highly mobile, being shipped by the Navy from warzone to warzone all depending on where the platoon or company selected to reinforce the Imperial forces there is currently needed. It stands to reason that they would stand ready to assist the Navy Armsmen if the ship transporting them into and out of a warzone came under attack...

Yeah, isn't it something silly like a single regiment of around 20k? Personally, I think it would make more sense to have each Segmentum be responsible for raising, training and deploying their own STs. With most of them being Progena, aren't they recruited from all over the galaxy? It would just be more logical, even if they technically were their own regiment, to have a much larger, Segmentum-specific designated force, rather than shipping the same 20k back and forth all over the galaxy, as I'm imagining there are plenty of warzones in need of special forces, and that 20k isn't going to stretch very far at all . . .

Per Imperial Armour 11, the Elysians have now been detailed as starting their Guard career doing Marine duties on board Imperial Navy vessels within their home sector as it's plagued by pirates and Ork raiders.

Kanluwen wrote:Per Imperial Armour 11, the Elysians have now been detailed as starting their Guard career doing Marine duties on board Imperial Navy vessels within their home sector as it's plagued by pirates and Ork raiders.

That's how I imagin a ST's career starts, too, or as I said, at the very least they have compulsory tours on board IN ships.

Nope, Stormtroopers are groundpounders through and through. They might operate on board a ship at some point in some extreme circumstances, but they don't train for it.

Imperial Navy operates something called Protective Security Battalions, Naval Armens, Naval Marines, Security Units, Boarding Battalions. It has gone by many names in fluff, but they're all the same concept. Troops trained to roughly Imperial Guard level equipped with black carapace armor and shotguns and flamers assigned to defend ships against boarding as well as board enemy vessels via assault boats/boarding torpedoes.

For non-Imperial Navy Warships, such as those of the Merchant Fleets and Civil Fleets, independent contractors/mercenaries/troops from the world of origin are common on board the ship itself, though they'll also have Imperial Navy escorts.

Kanluwen wrote:Nope, Stormtroopers are groundpounders through and through. They might operate on board a ship at some point in some extreme circumstances, but they don't train for it.

Care to provide a source that explicitly states STs are exclusively for ground operations? Once you're trained for storming heavily defended installations like bunkers etc, I think one would be qualified enough for Fleet-related boarding actions, too.

No, because there's never been one explicit source detailing the Stormtroopers.

The only time that I can think of for Stormtroopers doing shipborne duties is from "Redemption Corps", and that book has a lot of issues going on.

Kanluwen wrote:No, because there's never been one explicit source detailing the Stormtroopers.

Well, there you are then: no reason for me not to believe that STs serve on Navy ships as well as on planetary battlefields.

Other than Guard don't serve on Navy vessels, except in very extreme circumstances?

The Elysians are kind of an exception to the rule, and we don't know why entirely. Could be closer ties to the Navy because the Elysians train alongside them or any number of possibilities.

Stormtroopers are an elite force and quite rare, they wouldn't have presence on every Imperial Navy vessel. That being said, a Company of Stormtroopers being used as Boarding Troops for a special operation (lets say, storming a heavily-defended Chaos Space Station or Battleship) isn't out of the question.

Anfauglir wrote:Yeah, isn't it something silly like a single regiment of around 20k? Personally, I think it would make more sense to have each Segmentum be responsible for raising, training and deploying their own STs.

I never had a problem with it, actually. A lot of regiments would have something close to the Storm Troopers (called Grenadiers), just firmly integrated into their formation. The Storm Troopers are just a little better, their equipment a little more advanced, their training a little more extensive, and of course with the advantage of having been raised for this role rather than recruited at a later age. Their mobility would enable them to show up wherever they are needed the most, the possession of their own dropships circumventing Navy bureaucracy at least by a minimum and allowing for rapid redeployment in the battlefield.
They provide an elite add-on to an Imperial force dealing with a major crisis, such as ... say, Armageddon, which saw a full 18 companies deployed: http://web.archive.org/web/20021005045643/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/imp_forces.html

Anfauglir wrote:With most of them being Progena, aren't they recruited from all over the galaxy?

Yup. But the Schola also supplies Commissars, Arbites, Ecclesiarchy clerics, Navy NCOs, Munitorum staff attendands, and of course legions of Administratum scribes...
Only the crème de la crème of the martially inclined, strong-willed and pure (both in body and spirit) Progena would be chosen to become Storm Troopers - or Sisters of Battle. Though I imagine the number of Progena who become Assassinorum agents or Inquisition operatives is even fewer, by a large margin.

I can think of three reasons for why there wouldn't be many STs around. Either the high attrition combined with entry requirements, or it's some arcane law limiting their size (like the Emperor's Land Raider decree), or because of a tradition no-one bothers to break.
Who knows how the Storm Troopers first started out. Maybe they were originally an elite Terran unit accompanying the Great Crusade, their special role within the Imperial Guard a unique leftover from that era - just to present one idea off the top of my head.

Kanluwen wrote:The Elysians are kind of an exception to the rule, and we don't know why entirely.

Probably because of FW.

Personally, I'll just disregard this deviation from the "no Guard regiments under Navy command" rule ... but as with any fluff, this is a decision each of us has to make for themselves, depending on what we think makes more sense.

Sorry, where did I say that the Elysians were "under Navy command"?

IA11 says nothing like that.

Imperial Armour 11: The Doom of Myrmea wrote:The Elysian Drop Troop Regiments originate from a system located approximately thirty light years from the Hive World of Armageddon in the north-west of the Segmentum Solar. Their planetary system and the surrounding region of space are relatively new in galactic terms, and within them lie vast regions of swirling debris and asteroid fields still left over from their formation. These make for excellent ambush sites for the marauding Ork warbands and pirates that plague that part of the sector, particularly as the system is on a major Imperial trade route. Regiments drawn from Elysia are therefore well-trained for ship-to-ship boarding actions and also deployment via low-flying drop ships, enabling them to land far behind enemy lines without being detected.

So the way it's worded makes it seem more like the Elysians operate onboard sprint traders or other non-warships when necessary.

The involvement of the Elysians in the Betalis III campaign, by the by, was accidental. The only reason it happened was because they were serving as escorts for a Mechanicum convoy which was transporting the Legio Gryphonicus elsewhere, and the Mechanicum responded to the Inquisitor-Lord's request for arms.

Makarov wrote:Pretty simple question, who defends the Imperial ships? I am talking about the ones don't have the Space Marines on them. I mean there has to be regular human defending them, and wouldn't guys technically be marines? Or would they just be naval personal?

The armsmen and the crew.
If you look up "Relentless" a BL novel of a imperial cruiser on a patrol, the ship-security are the ones protecting it at anchor, shanghai'ing new crewmen, keeping the crew 'in line', etc and also repel boarders.
The crew will also fight as losing your ship in space isn't an option.

I'd guess BFG should provide a better pic of the IN warships. So anyone with access to willing to share?

Kanluwen wrote:Could be closer ties to the Navy because the Elysians train alongside them or any number of possibilities.

Something that equally applies to Storm Troopers, as I said, fluff-wise them being known to train and fight specifically for Valkyrie deployment. If anything, the Elysians seem to take after and be inspired by the STs more than the IG on FW's part, giving them an excuse to have as many Guard regiments as they want who can specialise in highly mobile, airborne assualt operations.

Harriticus wrote:Stormtroopers are an elite force and quite rare, they wouldn't have presence on every Imperial Navy vessel. That being said, a Company of Stormtroopers being used as Boarding Troops for a special operation (lets say, storming a heavily-defended Chaos Space Station or Battleship) isn't out of the question.

Yeah, I understand that, I wasn't trying to imply that every warship has a ST detatchment onboard at all times, more that it would make sense to use them as onboard combat specialists on a rotatory basis (again, focusing more on each company serving, not each ship getting such a service, as number of ships far, far outweigh the number of STs).

Lynata wrote:
... but as with any fluff, this is a decision each of us has to make for themselves, depending on what we think makes more sense.

Exactly.

Kanluwen wrote:Sorry, where did I say that the Elysians were "under Navy command"?

Based on your earlier comment. When they "serve on Navy vessels", they'd obviously be under Navy command, given that it's the Navy that says where that ship is going.

Though even with this quote, the "ship-to-ship boarding actions" kinda sounds like it, unless we assume that "spin traders and other non-warships" regularly attempt to capture enemy starships. And what is an Imperial Guard regiment to do onboard civilian freighters, anyways?

Alternatively, I'd say you simply misinterpreted the (somewhat badly worded) text and it just means they are well-versed at defending their transport ships because these Orks and other pirates often attempt to board them. But that'd hardly make them a rarity amongst the Imperial Guard, as I assume the same would be true for any regiment raised in a frontier region.

You don't have to "attempt to capture enemy starships" to be versed in ship-to-ship boarding actions. If you're in an area rife with pirates and Ork marauders, you get all the exercise you need simply by defending the ships.

Which, as I said, goes for any Imperial Guard regiment operating in such an area and doesn't make the Elysians special in any way.

The only example I can currently recall of Storm Troopers serving aboard a naval ship akin to the Elysians was in the Fire Warrior novel, and that wasn't a standard practice - it was a local experiment to see how things might work out, and we had no idea if it ever went anywhere. Then again you had 2 companies of marines serving board a battleship for some reason as well (another experiment) so take that as you will.

In an interesting aside the 1999 IG codex mentions a IG Garrison Force (the Xenthorp IIRC) who in their garrison duties had an in-system (non warp capable) ship converted to military purposes seconded to them, as well as having a platoon (IIRC) outfitted in pressure suits and modified weapons to garrison a monitoring station. Another section mentions 'Orbital' as a warzone type the IG might be expected to serve in (which might be the sort of thing Elyasians get assigned to.)

Other than that I'd doubt you'd willingly get IG forces (or other forces) serving aboard naval ships because of the competition between them (Navy would rather trust security of naval ships ot NavSec and their own armsmen/ratings. It would be insulting to have the IG protect them unless neccesary.) The only exceptions to that are cases whre you get a navy ship seconded to a commissar or something (like Gaunt having the Naverre, IIRC.)

Well, technically, the soldiers who defend the ships are Marines... But that's IRL more than 40k, and they're not Space Marines.

In Firewarrior, they had stormtroopers with M16s guarding the ship, or at least that's what it looked like. I think it was just auto stubbers with lack of imagination.

THe Imperial Navy has its own marine force, completely and utterly separated from the Space Marines.

You could even say that the Imperial Navy's marines are the REAL "space marines", semantically speaking.

lol. Melissia's SM hate is never far away from a marine thread, even if ir doesn't have anything to do with actual space marines. : P

Anyway, it's mentioned in the GG books; it's also covered quite well in ADB's Soul Hunter. Basically dudes armed with shotguns.

Frankly though, that entire thing about punching holes in the hull is bs. You never see Space Marines drop their bolters in favor of shotguns when fighting on ships. They use their bolters, and even use auto-cannons and plasma pistols and have massive fire fights in ships. So, busting the hull really isn't as big a deal as people think.