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I don't know if this question has been answered before, but I want to know what you guys think.

Awhile ago, I was playing a game, and my opponent began shooting at my HQ which was behind some of my fire warriors. My opponent tried to use his template weapons. The template did not reach my HQ, the unit he targeted, but it did overlap the fire warriors. My question is should it be able to hurt my fire warriors despite the fact that he was not in range to shoot the intended target?


EDIT: In case it matters, and I am sorry I didn't include this originally. It was the Eldar psychic power that uses the flamer template.

If he did not score a hit on his target, it misses.

I'm under the impression that whoever is under the template (Friend/Foe) at the scattering move (Not relevant for a flamer) is hit.... Count up the wounds casued and roll. You may choose what injured players are removed however.

Flame templates are different. You can score hits on things other than your target, but if you're not in range of the primary target for the shooting attack, nothing hits.

But if he opted to shoot the fire warriors and the flamer hit the HQ behind them then he would be hit too....

Too me its the same thing but opposite =] I shot at the HQ but didnt get the range so the FW are hit. They are engulfed by the template. The template exists.... it dosent vanish like a magic bullet does if the range is short.

To me the flamer would HAVE to hit the FW's or it would defy logic.

Now I understand GW and Logic dont get along well =]

Milisim wrote:I'm under the impression that whoever is under the template (Friend/Foe) at the scattering move (Not relevant for a flamer) is hit.... Count up the wounds casued and roll. You may choose what injured players are removed however.

You are incorrect. Firstly, anything that is out of range *automatically* misses. Period. Secondly you can *never* place a flamer template over friendly models - it is directly prohibited in the rules for templates, with no exceptions.

Milisim wrote:I'm under the impression that whoever is under the template (Friend/Foe) at the scattering move (Not relevant for a flamer) is hit.... Count up the wounds casued and roll. You may choose what injured players are removed however.

You are confusing templates and blast markers. The template is the tear drop shape and never scatters (as far as I am aware) and cannot be placed over friendly models. The blast marker is the circle (large or small) and can scatter over friendly models.

Which is why I said that it wasnt relevant to the flamer.....

And like I said before the fact that the Flame Template is covering the FW would be LOGICAL that they get hit... GW does not take the obvious logical approach and the rule is dumb. Like most of the template rules in 40k.

In the grim future there is only the Illogical.

Milisim wrote:Which is why I said that it wasnt relevant to the flamer.....

And like I said before the fact that the Flame Template is covering the FW would be LOGICAL that they get hit... GW does not take the obvious logical approach and the rule is dumb. Like most of the template rules in 40k.

In the grim future there is only the Illogical.

I get where you are coming from but it has to be hard to keep the game balanced in anyway and make it make logical sense.

Rules that are based on logic make the game mechanics better.

If I have 6 guys under a large blast template, then those 6 guys are the ones who should take saves.

However in 40k you can simply choose who saves based on how many were under the template.

Also 3 guys with ML are standing in the open while the other 7 guys in the squad are behind a wall. This was done so the ML could shoot without moving. Yet when I shoot at the unit the 3 ML are the last to go as the ones in cover get taken off first...

Again a broken rule that defies logic.....

Same with the flamer template... If it hits an enemy it is hit.... simple as that.

Rules like this is why the "You make da call" section is so massive.....

If I have flamethrower with a 10m range and you stand 15m away and someone is 9m away from me but inbetween us...

I miss you..... Who wants to be the guy in the middle?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Milisim wrote:I'm under the impression that whoever is under the template (Friend/Foe) at the scattering move (Not relevant for a flamer) is hit.... Count up the wounds casued and roll. You may choose what injured players are removed however.

You are incorrect. Firstly, anything that is out of range *automatically* misses. Period. Secondly you can *never* place a flamer template over friendly models - it is directly prohibited in the rules for templates, with no exceptions.

I thought the additional hits were not friendly models? I thought he was hitting the FW, while trying to hit the HQ?

It also takes more than targeting the Firewarriors to allow you to hit the unattached HQ on the far side. Since the FWs are the target unit, you MUST place the Flame Template over as many of the target unit's models as possible (pg 29). This really limits controlling the positioning of the FT to include other targets.

Milisim wrote:
If I have 6 guys under a large blast template, then those 6 guys are the ones who should take saves.

I really don't want to be an ass, even though I'm about to sound like one, but that is a large blast marker. Using the word "template" when you mean "marker" is causing confusion. Templates and Blast Markers work very differently according to the rules.

I'll just call them the neon green thingies for clarification =]

Yeah, we won't say anything about a rules system that takes a word that already means a very general thing and then decides to use it in a very specific way. That could never cause confusion.

Miilsim - erm, thats called blast marker sniping, was tried in 3rd( from memory) and was horribly, horribly broken as a mechanic. Ics? Dead before they move. Special weapon guy? Gone.

Sorry, unfortunatley "real world logic" doesnt really apply to an IGOUGO system with space elves and genetically engineered xenophobic puritan knights firing mini rocket launchers.

"Blast sniping" and "LOS sniping" and "range sniping" were all things you could do in third ed. They were less fun and less balanced than what we have now.

Any kind of wound allocation by shooting (Telion, Vindicare, JotWW, Zogwort's Curse, etc) is a totally bogus part of the game. You want to remove my IC's wounds? Come and get them. You want my PK Nob dead? Why don't you shoot and hack you way through 29 Boyz first.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:Any kind of wound allocation by shooting (Telion, Vindicare, JotWW, Zogwort's Curse, etc) is a totally bogus part of the game.

I disagree with it being 'totally bogus' but it should definitely be restricted to models that should have the ability according to their fluff and are appropriately priced.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:It also takes more than targeting the Firewarriors to allow you to hit the unattached HQ on the far side. Since the FWs are the target unit, you MUST place the Flame Template over as many of the target unit's models as possible (pg 29). This really limits controlling the positioning of the FT to include other targets.

This can be misconstrued. You see, the template can only ever hit 0 targets so, by this rule alone, he could place the template any and his any number of non-target units because he would always be hitting the same number of target models, 0. However, page 15 clearly states that at least 1 target model must be be within range of the weapon to be shot at. The range for a template weapon is the template. If he can't touch a model from the target unit with the template then he is making an invalid shot and has to stop before he rolls to wound.

Ghaz wrote:I disagree with it being 'totally bogus' but it should definitely be restricted to models that should have the ability according to their fluff and are appropriately priced.

Nope. Totally bogus.

Milisim wrote:I'll just call them the neon green thingies for clarification =]

And there's a tear drop shaped one called the flamer template, try typing both words from now on, and two circles, small blast and large blast, all neon green or if you bought Battle for Maccragge, they're a clear-ish white/gray.

Stick with exact terms and the discussion goes better.
- - - - - - - - - -

Okay, here's where I commiserate with you:

It *is* a stupid rule that if one dork is visible, the entire squad can get shot up, even though the other 9 guys are out of LoS. I despised this rule change as pretty much everything else from 4e to 5e made sense and made 40k better.

There is one line in the RB
But whachu gonna do? At home, you can play 2e or 1st edition all ya want, but the stores, GW or Indies, are supposed to support current product, and that includes current ruel sets.

Although, damn it, I think Warp Time would be a worthy exception

But whachu gonna do?

Brothererekose wrote:And there's a tear drop shaped one called the flamer template,...

It's actually just called a template. Flamers are only one of the weapons that use it. It hasn't been specifically a flamer template since 2nd edition.

It *is* a stupid rule that if one dork is visible, the entire squad can get shot up, even though the other 9 guys are out of LoS. I despised this rule change as pretty much everything else from 4e to 5e made sense and made 40k better.

It's only stupid until you see how much protection is actually provided by things like brick walls and trees when they're in the path of a high-powered assault rifle.

Being able to see that one guy gives the enemy a rough idea of where the unit is. Saturating the area with fire is just about as likely to hurt one of the guys out of sight as it is to get the poor slob who stuck his head out.