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Hey everyone,

I just put a post-up the other day about invulnerable saves and how I was wrong about getting both my armor save and invulnerable save. So I just want to make sure I have this clear. Even if someone is in cover the player only gets one save right? So if they are in a Fortification and they are hit, and let’s say the player’s armor is a 4+, Fortification is 3+ they would choose the cover save over the armor save?
And one more scenario, let’s say a space marine shoots at a hive tyrant with a lascannon. The hive tyrant is behind a group of other tyranids, the hive tyrant would get a 4+ cover save even though the lascannon would go through the hive tyrants armor?

Regarding the first part, yes, you would use the cover save, unless the attack ignores cover.

Hive Tyrants (as well as all other MC's must be 50% obscurred, or if they are in a unit (i.e. HT with TG), majority of the unit must have cover.

Basically you see what saves the unit has available to it, armor, cover, invulnerable, and then you get to roll one save so you pretty much always pick the best one. The only time someone ever rolls another dice to "save" a unit is with Feel No Pain (FNP) special rule, and that's not technically a saving throw. You can only ever use 1 saving throw.

So if i am playing a army that has feel no pain (Blood Angels or Tyranids for example) And i hit them, they dont get both armor and FNP just whatever one is better for them?

FNP is seperate from saves.

If you take a wound (you failed the save) you can try to negate the wound with FNP, assuming FNP applies. Some wounds can't be FNP'd away.

Lotus wrote:Basically you see what saves the unit has available to it, armor, cover, invulnerable, and then you get to roll one save so you pretty much always pick the best one.

You don't get to pick. You use the best save, period.
.

DeT07 wrote:So if i am playing a army that has feel no pain (Blood Angels or Tyranids for example) And i hit them, they dont get both armor and FNP just whatever one is better for them?

FNP is an instance when a model gets a second save if they fail the first.

For instance

The model fails its armor save

Then

Roll of FNP (if they have it)

You make the FNP and all is right with the world and the model lives one another round.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:FNP is an instance when a model gets a second save if they fail the first.

Except as has been noted, Feel No Pain is not a save.

DeT07 wrote:And one more scenario, let’s say a space marine shoots at a hive tyrant with a lascannon. The hive tyrant is behind a group of other tyranids, the hive tyrant would get a 4+ cover save even though the lascannon would go through the hive tyrants armor?

Just to clarify here. Monstrous Creatures and Vehicles don't follow cover saves like normal infantry. You must literally have view blocked to 50% or more of the model. You're going to have to lean down to the model's eye view to figure this one out.

This of course is assuming the Tyrant is not attached to any Tyrant Guard. Tyrant Guard are not Monstrous Creatures so claim cover as normal. However 50% of the model in a unit must be able to claim cover in order for the unit to get the same so you get some weird things such like even though a Tyrant could not claim a cover save, but the Tyrant Guard can claim a cover save so the entire unit can now get a cover save.

Soooo as a few examples:

1) Tyrant without 50% LOS blocked == no save
2) Tyrant w/ 50% LOS blocked == save
3) Tyrant without 50% LOS blocked and one Tyrant Guard is behind a unit == save (the Tyrant Guard gets to claim cover, so 50% of the unit can claim cover and therefore both the Tyrant and the Guard get a save)
4) Tyrant without 50% LOS blocked and two Tyrant Guard is behind a unit == save (66% of the unit claims cover)
5) Tyrant without 50% LOS blocked, one Tyrant Guard is behind a unit, one Tyrant Guard is not behind a unit == no save (33% of the unit claims cover)
6) Tyrant with 50% LOS blocked, one Tyrant Guard is behind a unit, one Tyrant Guard is not behind a unit == save (66% of the unit claims cover)
7) Tyrant with 50% LOS blocked and two Tyrant Guard not behind a unit (weird scenario, but it could happen) == no save (33% of the unit claims cover)

I could come up with a ton more, but you get the gist of it.

Sorry to be utterly confusing, Tyrants just can be really weird like that and I wanted to clarify.



And like everyone else said. FnP is not a save so a unit can get both a save and roll for FnP. However there are some things that also ignore FnP.

Ok, as I understand it:

A cheese-ball guy with a 2+ armour, 5+ invun and FnP(4+).
He is hit & wounded with a Lascannon/power CC weapon (AP2). all he has is his 5+ invun because AP2 ignores all armour and FnP.

My Lychguard with his Shield: 3+ Armour, 4+ invun. he is hit twice with a rending weapon. one hit wounded, one hit rended. The Lychguard will have to take both an armour save (for the standard wound) and an invun (for the rending wound).

Of course, if the invun is passed in the above example a unit within 6" takes a rending hit, but lets not disscuss the cheese aspect of lychguard.

A real cheesballer would be the 2+,3++, 4+ fnp

Thanks, Ward

true but not even ward would give a 3++ invun to a 2+,FnP guy, surely.

Or should i just read the GK codex?

Yeah it totally can't happen. Except to BA, C:SM, some GK...

I'm sure there's more but that doesn't make them unkillable, just really tough.

and I also assume it would be a multi-wound guy...

that would cost a fething bomb in points and pounds

IHateNids wrote:true but not even ward would give a 3++ invun to a 2+,FnP guy, surely.

Or should i just read the GK codex?

This is codex Blood Angels, not Grey Knights, Grey Knights don't get TH/SS termies, and don't have wide access to FNP, Blood Angels can have FnP in ANY unit in there army with an elites choice. Please don't bash on GK, they are not that over the top. This post is an example of how many people complain about cheese that is worse in other dexes than GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the only GK termies which get FnP pay for it with a 90 point model iirc, on a very expensive unit. You cannot get this in Codex: Space Marines from what I have seen.

Lord Magnus wrote:

IHateNids wrote:true but not even ward would give a 3++ invun to a 2+,FnP guy, surely.

Or should i just read the GK codex?

This is codex Blood Angels, not Grey Knights, Grey Knights don't get TH/SS termies, and don't have wide access to FNP, Blood Angels can have FnP in ANY unit in there army with an elites choice. Please don't bash on GK, they are not that over the top. This post is an example of how many people complain about cheese that is worse in other dexes than GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the only GK termies which get FnP pay for it with a 90 point model iirc, on a very expensive unit. You cannot get this in Codex: Space Marines from what I have seen.

GK Paladins have a 2+ and a 4++ as standard; they can take an item which gives them a 2++, but only on one model in the whole unit. One model can be upgraded to an Apothecary for 70 points (making that particular model cost a total of 120 points), which gives the whole unit FNP.

You can thus have a unit which consists of up to eight two-wound models with 2+/4++/FNP, one model with 2+/5++ (since an Apothecary does not have a Nemesis Force Sword)/FNP, and one model with 2+/2++/FNP. The unit can also be entirely diversified in order to take advantage of the wound allocation rules, though that will require having more models with a 5++ instead of a 4++.

Paladins, however, aren't particularly overpowered just because they're extremely expensive; a fully-diversified 10-strong Paladin unit with an Apothecary and all the goodies costs well upwards of 700 points by itself.

Errmmmmm...................................


I thought my 700 points on two ICs and a 4-man Court full of gizzmos was expensive.

Now I KNOW it is, considering 10 men come in at the ame cost of six. Then again GK cant sing "I get knocked down, but I get up again"

Bezerker - the 4++ from a sword is in CC ONLY

nosferatu1001 wrote:Bezerker - the 4++ from a sword is in CC ONLY

True, and the same is true (if I'm remembering correctly) for the 2++ from the Warding Stave. Against shooting, they all have a 5++.

Yep.

Which is why I use mordrak, and drop in cover. 3+ cover saves and in your deployment zone, with a sanctuary / might / warprift libby (who has hopefully just messed about with some vehicles of yours!) makes opponents think...!

IHateNids wrote:true but not even ward would give a 3++ invun to a 2+,FnP guy, surely.

Or should i just read the GK codex?

Draigo. 2+,3++,FnP (with Apothecary), 4 wounds (I think), Eternal Warrior

So in short, he would and he did.

BA termie squads are a pain to take down.

Ascalam wrote:So in short, he would and he did.

BA termie squads are a pain to take down.

TH/SS Termies with a S. Priest in Termie armour, all in a LR 550 points of 2+, 3++, FNP goodness!.

Hech they could forget the LR and walk across the map and still survive!

Why did I mention Ward & Storm Shields...

Yeah, bit of a sore point there for us non-marine types

Especially since they jumped from a 4+ inv against one opponent in close combat only to a 3++ perpetual, with very little change in pts cost compared to the power-up.

Up until then i think only Necron Wraiths and maybe one other unit had 3++ saves.

*shrug* at least it's not a 2++ save yet, at -5 pts per model.

They still hate 12 burnaboyz opening up on a unit f them though Did that last tournament and bugged my opponents eyes out with the dice i had to roll. We rolled on a spare table to avoid just burying his models in D6's