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I have already posted a little bit of this in the General Discussion section, but now that I have set up a few rules suggestions I am putting it into the Proposed Rules section.

YES I also posted this in the 40k Proposed Rules section, but since this has equal relevance to both WHFB and 40k I figured it'd be best to throw it out for both sides so those who only read for Fantasy sections can take notice as well.

At the risk of sounding like a complete moron, I'd like to propose rules for compatibility of Fantasy and 40k units rules-wise. I love my IG, and I also love my Dwarfs, and with enough time I think it'd be fun to implement multiple units into one army from both sides AND seamlessly integrate whole armies from Fantasy into 40k battles and vice-versa. PLEASE do not take this too seriously! It is silly and I realize that but I think it could be fun!

Before I get gunned down, just let me say that fluff is out of the question. I don't care about the fact that a Dwarf axe wouldn't be able to do jack squat (no pun intended) to hardly anything including flak armour and they'd get torn to shreds by even lasguns. I just think it'd be a fun little excursion, to be able to throw some Fantasyhammer units into a 40k game or two. All stats would be the same, so yes that means Dwarfs (I'm just using them as an example since it's the only army I'm truly familiar with through and through) would often be on equal footing with Space Marines in terms of strength and toughness.

I have put a small bit of thought into this, but I'm sure you, the community, has more knowledge of overall rules for both 40k and Fantasy seeing as how I just started playing 40k little more than a year ago and Fantasy maybe 6 months ago.

Biggest problems I saw:

1. Most Fantasy units probably don't have anything to crack tanks since they have no equipment like Melta weapons and such specifically made for anti-armor. That makes fighting vehicle armies hell for everyone.

My remedy? Write up basic rules for some of the weapons i.e. runic dwarf weapons or war machines, and perhaps give some cavalry the spear weapons of the IG Rough Riders. I know that nearly every army barring Wood Elves has a fair compliment of war machines they can bring to bear to be adapted for vehicle combat, and it would be fairly simple to make amendments to certain weapons that seem like they'd be apt at vehicle killing if anything such as aforementioned runic and magic weapons and "heavy" weapons like spears or great weapons. Also, keep monstrous creatures in mind. I know a well-used tree man could plow straight through my Leman Russ lines without a second thought if he gets lucky based on strength alone. As in the 40k rulebook, monstrous creatures deal an extra D6 for armour penetration, giving them 2D6 plus Strength for armour penetration. More rules will come later for what I can think of, but I'll need to get my hands on some more codices beforehand. Most of these augmentations would have to be individualized for each Fantasy army's wargear.

2. 40k Is very shooty, Fantasy hammer is not. Many armies could get knocked out in the first fusillade of fire from the 40k army.

However, most of what I can see of Fantasyhammer still has good armor saves, and perhaps ward spells can be expanded to simply include all shooting weapons besides things like flamers and blast templates. Plus, many Fantasy armies have a good amount of missile weapons when needed, and some (such as wood elves) have extremely powerful special effects like insta-kill arrows which my cannon crews and thanes have often fallen victim to. Also, seeing as how most Fantasy armies are based around close combat, they are built to withstand shooting to GET to close combat. If I expect my dwarf warriors to be doing some traveling and get shot at along the way, I make sure they have at least an armour save of 4+ from shields! I'm assuming most other armies have similar ways to keep their units from being shot up, whether it's raising more dead for Vampire Counts or regeneration or simple hard-to-kill-ness of something like Tomb Kings. I always have a hard time shooting up anything my Wood Elf friend lays on the field because of his clever use of cover, even if they are in range of my Thunderers every turn.
This is something that I know would need more in-depth reworking. This is where I definitely need the ingenuity of the Dakka community. Gimme some ideas and I'll work with you to make it work!

3. Movement is very different, including unit coherency.

I say, let the units be incoherent! Use the basic movement rules from Fantasyhammer for marching, running, etc. to determine movement distance, but they shouldn’t need to be in blocks; that would just cause an entire unit to be wiped out by a single ordnance blast. Keep them within 2 inches just like 40k units. However, since close combat requires the units to all go into base contact anyways, just have them loosely reform if need be for the combat based on the rough estimate of how they were beforehand.

4. Close combat: Basic idea in my mind is 40k units use 40k rules, Fantasyhammer use Fantasy rules.

Spearmen, ranks, and such would be the same as in Fantasy and the close combat is calculated nearly exactly the same in terms of wounds and such. When a Fantasy unit enters close combat with a 40k unit, the fantasy army immediately reforms into ranks based on their previous positions, as stated before. To-hit and to-wound are exactly the same from my readings of both rulebooks. Models which may attack are relatively equivalent; once the Fantasy unit forms its ranks, the first and second ranks may both attack, and the third rank in a horde with 10 or more models per rank. 40k units in base contact (which are essentially the first rank) can attack, as well as any within two inches of the "first rank." No problems here.
The part where it gets sticky is resolution… I understand the points system from Fantasy well enough, but putting it into 40k... Ranks, standards, and such wouldn’t be present to the 40k army so it seems like it would be simpler to use the 40k resolution based solely on wounds inflicted, but that takes a lot out of the essence of Fantasy close combat which is what I believe makes the game much of the time!
Now I do have some simple alterations whipped up to the Fantasy points system, but... eh. It might work, it might not, but I could use some ol' elbow grease from you guys to temper these ideas!
Anyways, as I'm sure you probably know, Fantasy resolution is based on:
1. Wounds inflicted
2. Charge
3. Ranks
4. Standards
5. Flank and Rear Attacks
6. The High Ground

So, what could be changed? Wounds inflicted are very obviously perfectly compatible. One point per unsaved wound. The charge point goes to whoever charged. Ranks... Well, Fantasy army is easy enough, but for 40k, err... Perhaps break the unit into "ranks" based on coherency; keep the models within 2 inch coherency lengthwise, but every model in the unit must move as close as it can to the enemy when Pile-In! takes effect each turn, so the models have the lowest amount of space between them going towards the enemy. Then, measure the distance from the front of the unit to the back (relative to the enemy). Every 2 inches (or 3?) counts as one rank, provided that the unit never dips under a certain width (need suggestions!)

5. Magic and dispelling: Magic is, obviously, entirely different. Even Dwarfs, who don’t even use spells, get a dispel pool. Of course, as I said I don’t know any other armies well enough in Fantasy to claim knowledge, so I honestly don’t know how magic casting works to them individually except for if a spellcaster does something wrong his head can explode. I’m a bit lost on this one too I suppose, though I imagine homebrew rules for warp vs magic can be pounded out by some veteran players.
My ideas;
First, dispelling for 40k armies against a casting Fantasy army is exactly the same as a normal Fantasy army trying to dispel. They get the lower D6 rolled by the caster in dispel dice and for every spellcaster the 40k army rolls a D6 and on a roll of 6 they get another die added to their dispel pool.
Second, dispelling 40k cast spells with a Fantasy dispeller... again I'm a bit blank on this one. I feel that the Fantasy army SHOULD be able to dispel the 40k warp spells, seeing as how the 40k should be able to do the same. A simple suggestion was an opposed leadership test, with the difference of the character's leadership added to the caster's test. For example, a L8 40k psyker attempts a spell against a L9 Fantasy wizard. The psyker will add 1 to the leadership test result because the wizard has one higher leadership point. If the psyker can't make the test, the strain was too great and his powers can't be harnessed. Next, the wizard makes his opposed roll. If he rolls lower than what the psyker rolled, he manages to overpower the psyker's warp spell with his own magical power, and the spell is negated. If the psyker's augmented leadership is passed and he is not overpowered by the wizard, his spell functions as normal. Perils of the Warp takes its toll as normal on a double 1 or double 6.

Anyways, I just felt like it may be a fun idea for those of us who enjoy throwing fluff to the winds once in a while. Plus, as the rulebook says, “The most important rule is that none of the rules are important,”

More coming soon hopefully! I definitely appreciate any and all comments and suggestions!

It's not too tough. Just treat every 40K unit as skirmishers.
Add 1 to every stat of 40K units (so your basic guardsmen fights like a marine vs skeletons/zombies, and your basic marine cleans house). I'd also add Armor Piercing and 1 point of strength to all ranged weapons in 40K (so bolter is S5 save -3). All rapid fire weapons are multi-shot 2.

Convert 40K vehicles to steam tank like machines; T10 lots of wounds, good armor.

Don't change point values, just use uneven points. Something like the Fantasy player gets 3x the points. 1,000 points of marines vs 3000 points of fantasy.
Limit vehicles to 25% of your points.


-Matt

Oddly enough, I was just about to do this!

A friend and I actually have played two games of FantasyHammer 40K, and both have been quite enjoyable.

The basics are as follows:

Movement
As described in the respective rulebooks. 40K armys are all Skirmishers or Warmachines (artillery), and all have a M value of 6. Fantasy units have an M value and are either in blocks or Skirmishers. Yes, an Ordinance Blast might be terrible to a Fantasy army, but odds are we'll have enough R&F to last, and we make up for it in later phases.

One thing that has to be changed, and will help balance the Shooting efficacy of 40K units, is Charges. In 40K currently, Charges are declared after Shooting, meaning that whole units can do both to a single enemy unit. Charges will work as in Fantasy, except all 40K units will have a base Charge of 12", period, and if they don't make it, they don't move. Units with Slow and Purposeful, or moving through terrain or whatnot, will have 4d6 take the two highest for Charge. Fleet units get to add d6 to that distance, with special rules like Ghazkul's Waaagh!! just adding a flat 6". 40k units are more maneuverable, but also more organized and disciplined, in general, but some Fantasy units can move faster with weight of troops and sheer adrenaline.

Magic
This is the Great Equalizer for Fantasy, and there are two ways to play it. Option 1 is that Magic is Magic, and Psychic Powers are Psychic Powers, and never the twain shall meet. This gives an enormous boost to Fantasy, because they can essentially guarantee almost all of their spells going off, while 40k Psychic powers tend to be a lot weaker, though I'd say the Army can still attempt to dispel, and you can Channel with Psychers.

Option 2 is that Magic is Psychic and vice versa. This means things like Psychic Hoods will affect Casting, and you can Dispel Psychic Powers. For this you either need to go through each 40k army book and give each Psychic Power a cast value, and run them exactly like Fantasy Magic (but with Psychers getting to choose their spells (except for Wierdboys, who do it randomly) ) or figure out exactly how Dispel and Psychic defenses and such work between the two- luckily 40K already has a Miscast table in Perils of the Warp. I'd help with that, but I don't actually know how most 40K psychic stuff works.

Shooting
This is pretty much fine as-is. The only issue is Facing, and that's not that big a deal aside from weakening Fantasy armies a tad bit.

Combat
Here's where it gets fun. First off, 40K has Banners (and Daemons even have Musicians!). If we treat 40K units as Fantasy Skirmishers, we take care of Ranks as well. You get +1 to resolution for charging, 40K units are immune to Flank and Rear charges (every facing is front for them), but have no Rank bonus, but get all attacks from everyone within 2" of B2B. This means that 40K unit may more easily outright kill models, but Fantasy units have the advantage in combat resolution, generally, as well as sheer numbers, with no upper size limit. About the only 40K army that can even think about rivaling Fantasy Blocks is an Imperial Guard Blob, and they're pretty much exactly the same when it comes to how dangerous they are.

However, it needs to be determined whether 40K units can 'wrap' Fantasy blocks when they assault or not, and what the effects are if they can. Attacks are obviously distributed according to who's touching, and Fantasy is limited on the side; but does a 'wrap' give Flank and/or Rear Charge bonuses (if it's a wrap from front to flank or flank to rear or all around) or not?

Also, Break tests. They're the same, but 40K's Overrun is a straight Initiative Test- keep it an Initiative Test when a 40K unit Breaks, and Run Down when a Fantasy Unit Breaks, All Fantasy-style, or all 40K style?


And finally, Armour. 40K has AP, Fantasy has Strength Modification. When I played, we said that 40K used AP, Fantasy used Mods, and it worked okay. But another option is to have both use Modifications, with the caveat that any 40K weapon with an AP has Armour Piercing a-la Fantasy, and anything with AP1 has double Armour Piercing. I believe from my own experience that this, along with using Charge rules instead of Assault, will properly balance the two games.


Both times I played FantasyHammer 40,000, I lost- Tomb Kings vs. Space Marines/Imperial Guard (second time). The first time, the Opponent had some Terminators that I just couldn't break through their armour.

The second time was because of terrible Miscasts destroying my Liche Priest, letting my army crumble, with his shooting killing my Warsphinx (though not before it utterly annihilated a unit of Veterans and Charged his Leman Russ).

But most rules are actually pretty much okay, and I think that what Fantasy lacks in sheer power they make up for with tricksy tricks, sheer numbers and Utter Magical Domination.

Just the thought of steamtanks driving around dropping pie plates makes me... Uninterested. I can't see fantasy having an answer for the abundance of templates. This used to be a concept (and many though sigmar was one of the two lost primarchs). I would say the uneven points are the best bet, and your rules seem like they would be fairly comprehensive with an agreeable oppnent

Way I see it, the templates can be balanced by the presence of magic in Fantasy as well. If anyone would like to aid me, I can attempt to make some "conversion codices" as I will refer to them if I have the spare time. Simple conversions of Fantasy codices to 40k or vice versa.

Which do you guys think would work best? Giving Fantasy units some upgrades to let them stand up to the armour of 40k and such with magic weapons and special equipment, or altering 40k units' equipment to suit Fantasy?

In reality the latter could probably be easier because 40k seems to me to have everything that Fantasy does plus some extra equipment which could be converted to a suitable purpose in Fantasy rules, whereas in Fantasy new items and ideas would have to be invented and balanced and have points assigned to them...

But hey, I'm up for it!

I think they don't need to be converted. Like above, you just need rules for the interactions- the armies themselves are well balanced even between games. A basic Tomb Kings Skeleton Archer is ~7 points (the way I run them), and is almost stat-for-stat the same as an Imperial Guardsman, who are about the same points.

Orks are just Greenskins with Guns instead of Arrers.

Brettonians are like, Bike Termies without invuln saves.

That's all with no internal rules changes.

True, very true. Matt's ideas seem to be very viable and would be effective at balancing the combat against vehicles. High toughness vehicles with multiple wounds would work just about right I think.

The only problem I see with using the armor mod rules from Fantasy for everything is that many weapons in 40k have out-of-proportion AP to their strength, like multi-lasers or the Punisher gatling variant of a Russ.

Magic I believe could reach a happy medium. If Fantasy magic were to be given dispelling domain over 40k warp powers, it could balance the game out a bit more. It would definitely take some play-testing though.

You'd have to allow Psychic Hoods and such to affect Fantasy Magic, then.