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I'm a CSM player and my opponents are normally Grey Knight player. I've played probably over 20 times against few opponent and it just seem impossible to defeat them (haven't won a game against them yet). Both my opponents love to run Draigo and two squad of Paladins. One opponent loves to deep strike them in while the other prefer to deploy or walk them on. I don't mind play against them knowing that I have a very low chance of winning but I love the challenge. I was wondering if there is any suggest on tactic against the Grey Knight.

My list consist of:

HQ:
2 x Demon Prince with Lash (lash the Paladins away or toward and bunch them up for the obliterators or my Blaster Master with a STR 8)
1 x Greater Demon (Seems like just a Chump Block for the Paladin cause INT 4 he hardly ever get a hit in before the force weapon takes him out)

Elites:
3x Obliterators (These guys with Plasma Cannon/Lascannon normally kills a few of them until they are taken out but a STR 8 shot from their Dreadnought)

Troops:
8x Berserkers and Skull Champion with Power Weapon in a Rhino (Love all the extra hits but Paladins usually makes their Armor Saves and wipes these guys out)
10x Noise Marine with Sonic Blaster, 1 Blaster Master, Noise Champion Power Weapon (I do love the extra shots but the armor save from the paladin usually save against all the shots)
10x Noise Marine with Sonic Blaster, 1 Blaster Master, Noise Champion Power Weapon
7x Plague Marine, 2 meltagun and Champion with Power Fist (Good to hold the OBJ until the paladin runs them over)


I do want to put a vindicator but I do not own one yet. I do have 3 extra Obliterators thinking to put into the list. Thanks for any idea on this. I am a fairly new 40k Player started mid 2011.

I'm not surprised you're not winning. That list is IMO, awful.

I've one against them a couple times, and I've only played them a couple more times. I use lots of lascannons. Last game was 1500, and I think I was using this:

-Daemon Prince- MON, Warptime, wings

-5 Terminators. x4 LCs, MOS, chainfist, heavy flamer
----Land Raider with possession

X5 Plague Marines, x2 melta, rhino
X5 Plague Marines, x2 melta, rhino
x10 Chaos Marines, x2 melta, champ with fist, rhino (don't remember exactly)

x4 Lascannon havocs, IOCG
x3 Obliterators

Popped all his transports by second turn, picked the regular dudes off with plasma cannons and lascannons. Nurgle DP destroyed his assassin second turn. When his 20 paladins came in, I assaulted them with my LC terminators, but honestly didn't do well at all, and my land raider just pew pewed at them for the rest of the game. My plague marines never left their transports, and I think I threw the big unit into the crowd of paladins for fun

You need more FNP and less assaulty stuff. You can't beat them in assault, just face it

He's right the imbalance between the two codexes means that paladins and purifiers will walk through any unit one on one, but you have to avoid that unit for as long as possible, blow up the shinier things like AV 11 tanks for easy Kp's

I usually don't go head on into assualt against them also long as I can with the lashing but sometime I have to get to their Dreadnought before it shoots up my DP. I usually use my assault as a last restort to stall them from getting to my range troops.

I understand the list looks awful, but I just recently started and do not have much on list of troops. I guess I'll try more of the Plague marine route. Than you for the suggestion.

Take away their armor saves. Force them out of cover. Defeat them with high strength/low AP. Run more obliterators, and have them fire lascannons at paladins. That will ignore armor and cause instant death. Need moar meltas too.

Firepower can and will kill him. Perhaps 5x Chosen with plasma rifles. That is 5 no armor save hits. Melta would work but that is of limited value. For now get your extra obliterators out there. 6 x TL plasma shots (12 at 12") should cut the numbers down. I would lose the greater demon for now, it costs you a champion and by your words it is not being effective. Havocs with Missile launchers or spammed plasma rifles... Your EC units are mighty pricey - I find the slaanesh perfect number of 6 works out well. That also will give you some points.
A unit of chosen and havocs with ML will do you the best (or the extra obliterators) you need to remove his DN firebase and reduce him to 24" threat range ASAP.
Leave the berzerkers at home. Paladins just outclass you too much.


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Try something like this:

2 x Demon Prince w lash and wings
5 x Chosen w 5 x Plasma Rifles
6x Noise Marines: Asp Champ w Doom Siren & PW in Rhino
6 x Noise Marines: Asp Champ w Doom Siren & PW in Rhino
7 x Plague Marines: 2 x MG, Asp Champ w PF
3x Obliterators
3 x Obliterators
7 x Havocs w 4 ML

The obliterators concentrate on killing the dreadnoughts ASAP. The havocs kill a transport (rhino). The chosen infiltrate to a good position where they can be protected (cover) and have a good field of fire. (2nd or 3rd floor in a building is ideal.) The noise marines stay inside the rhinos and the blastmaster fires out of the firing point. When they get close, dump them out and hit them with the doom siren.

Thanks for the response DAaddict. I like this list cause I do enjoy alot of range troops, and there is still more enough troops to hold objectives. I defintely try this list out. Thanks for your input on this.

Well, the problem with plasma is that, even though you're getting twice the number of shots off, you're potentially not taking a paladin per shot, so he can wound allocate them around.

Paladins are super slow. NEVER assault them or let them assault you. Use all your long range firepower to take out their dreads in KP missions. In objective missions, play the mission. Paladins are bad at taking multiple objectives, and while they can always get a draw in capture and control, he will struggle to win.

In KP missions, go for the dreads and work to not give him any easy KP's.

You do have some list issues too. Tons of not-exactly-great noisemarines is your greatest problem. Greater Deamon is ok, but you are sacrificing an expensive champ to get him out. A single rhino is your last issue, go all mech or all foot. One rhino is simply a free KP.


So, in short: Focus on the support in your opponents' lists first. Use lash to deny the paladins options (usually means lashing them away). Focus on mission objectives.

daedalus wrote:Well, the problem with plasma is that, even though you're getting twice the number of shots off, you're potentially not taking a paladin per shot, so he can wound allocate them around.

Agreed but plasma is one of the weapons that can affect him at range. Meltas turn into a one shot weapon. Sure they can kill a paladin but think about it probable 4 hits and 4 wounds, now you get to play with the 5++ saves and if he gets hot, you are toast. The plasma chosen are an extra pain for him to deal with. Given the ideal, they will not be in line with the rest of your army so he has a choice, focus on them and waste a turn or two moving to kill them and then getting back on track to target your main army. OR He hopefully ignores them and then you have 24" range harassment fire to hit him for 2 or 3 turns.


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Rhinos are nice but I understand they are not cheap to add. If you went with my list, I would get both EC units in rhinos, followed by the plague marines, the havocs and the chosen. A combi-melta or a havoc launcher is also a good investment. You need volume of fire to get through 2+ armor saves and blast templates provide that.

As DAaddict said, squads of Chosen with plasma guns are your friend. The last CSM vs. GK game I played, they were easily my MVP as my opponent decided to go all 2+ on me. They can shread through Paladins. I used three squads and left one in reserve to outflank in a rhino.

I agree with illumini, paladins are probably best ignored as much as possible.

Otherwise, what you're probably struggling with the most is two things that are easy to forget about GK armies.

The first one that you've got to remember is that GK are the current kings of force concentration. If you're fighting his unit of paladins with just one (or even two) of your units at a time, then he's STILL bringing more points of killiness to that particular engagement than you are. This is troubling because CSM is already an army that requires good force concentration, so he's basically beating you at your own game. If you're going to take on his units (especially expensive ones like paladins), you've got to be able to out-concentrate him. Don't shoot a few obliterators and a squad of slaanesh marines at him and then charge him with some berzerkers. Instead, shoot every weapon you have at just that one squad on that turn, and then have as much of your army as you can assault him simultaneously.

You're used to winning local battles, because you're CSM, and CSM has good individual units. You've got to actually try against GK with respect to this, though.

The second thing that you've got to remember about GK is that they can be phenominal at shooting, or phenominal at chopping, but they're just too expensive to be phenominal at both at the same time. This means that, depending on the GK's army compisition, he's going to be able to outshoot you or out-chop you every time.

The important thing to do is not get sucked into playing to his strengths, because they will be stronger than yours. What you do have, as a CSM army, though, is a degree of versatility that he doesn't. Playing versatility against specialization is tough, but it's probably what you're going to need to win this. If your opponent brings a bunch of halberds with a sprinkling of ward staves, you're not going to beat him in a straight-up CC fight. You've got to play that game really relying on your support units and your small arms, not being afraid to fall back if it means you get to do more shooting before he gets into close combat. If he's showing up with a psycannon-spam army, then you've got to take advantage of the fact that you get free bolt pistols and close combat weapons, and be prepared for a bloodbath on both sides in close combat, as you're not going to outshoot him in the 18"-24" range.

Toughening up your list will definitely help, but I think that the key to success here is going to rely on fieldcraft. Knowing what to ignore, when to retreat, what to shoot vs. assault, and when to charge in is what's going to give you the time and space to apply your more versatile army to your opponent's weaknesses, rather than getting chumped in to playing against his strengths.

Defilers and oblits can do wonders against a big 10 man of paladins espeacially if you can lash them together. Plus if you must get into cc you need to be the one assaulting so psykouts dont affect things like oblits/dp. Defilers, dp etc can kill pallys if theyre the on doing the assaults.

Aren't Noise Marines horrible points-wise in the current game? Don't field them. Use regular chaos marines or plague marines. Take a crap ton of Obliterators. Not just 3.

Like Draigo said, the Obliterators will work awesome if you can lash the Paladins together. Wait a minute, why is Draigo helping you? I think his demonblade has corrupted his mind!

I would say that your best bet as chaos against GK is to use possessed vindicators. Sprinkle in some plasma on troops, or melta, and use demon weapon HQ's with jump packs. I know demon weapons have a bad rap, but their potential is far better point for point than using lightning claws.

Obliterators, my CSM standard, won't work against GK. The str 8 spam that can get tossed around will hurt, and they will get destroyed in CC rather than hold.

Lash absolutely won't work. Everyone and their mom takes a librarian for GK. Why risk your army based on need to pass leadership, which may fail, and then not get stopped by the psychic hood, which odds are you will lose, and then you need to roll to hit? No. Take a demon weapon, and just don't roll a 1. Better odds.

Also consider taking dreads, with extra armor, DCCW and heavy flamer. Dirt cheap, 5 attacks on the charge, draws fire away from the vindicators. Keep them in front of your army so they can deal no damage to you.

If someone is fielding a Draigo deathstar it is unlikely they will have much in the way of S8 spam. Certainly not the super cheese 3 dreads and 2-3 Ven Dreads. They'll have 3 dreads at most, and he can field 6-9 Obliterators in return. Those lascannons will kill the dreads quickly and he'll have plenty of oblits left over.

Once those dreads are gone, the Paladins can be lashed and plasma cannoned to death.

juraigamer wrote:I would say that your best bet as chaos against GK is to use possessed vindicators. Sprinkle in some plasma on troops, or melta, and use demon weapon HQ's with jump packs. I know demon weapons have a bad rap, but their potential is far better point for point than using lightning claws.

Obliterators, my CSM standard, won't work against GK. The str 8 spam that can get tossed around will hurt, and they will get destroyed in CC rather than hold.

Lash absolutely won't work. Everyone and their mom takes a librarian for GK. Why risk your army based on need to pass leadership, which may fail, and then not get stopped by the psychic hood, which odds are you will lose, and then you need to roll to hit? No. Take a demon weapon, and just don't roll a 1. Better odds.

Also consider taking dreads, with extra armor, DCCW and heavy flamer. Dirt cheap, 5 attacks on the charge, draws fire away from the vindicators. Keep them in front of your army so they can deal no damage to you.

Why put possession on your vehicles? Then the gk can reroll vs them.

Why take vindicators? Pray your one shot hits? The csm need more shots then just 3. It loses its gun its useless. At least if the defiler loses a gun hes still a fleet dred.

If that strength 8 is being shot at oblits then its not being shot at scoring units. I mean the oblits can still use their 2+ vs psyfleman. 4 shots at 3 oblits may kill 1 a turn so 1 dread has to waste 3 turns to kill 3. That sounds ok to me. Now the gk player has to hope the oblits arent send lascanons into the dread cause math says hell be dead 1st if he isnt a vendread.

Now as far as hood outside of draigowing libbys arent that common. Coteaz lists dont normally have him getting into cc since hes not that hard to kill. The libby in many draigo lists is either in a sr or walking. If youre that worried you can focus fire on it and try to seperate the 2. If theyre together just pie plate it and scatter wont really be an issue.

In the elites you can outflank chosen with melta or plasma to tag on some extra wounds or destroy their rides. Then your long range can drop pie plates.

Draigo I am sad you turned into a traitor.

Joe Mama wrote:Aren't Noise Marines horrible points-wise in the current game? Don't field them. Use regular chaos marines or plague marines. Take a crap ton of Obliterators. Not just 3.

Like Draigo said, the Obliterators will work awesome if you can lash the Paladins together. Wait a minute, why is Draigo helping you? I think his demonblade has corrupted his mind!

Noisemarines are not bad for the blastmaster. S8 AP3 small blast is useful. The problem is not getting sucked into making the unit too big. At 25 pts each (with a sonic blaster) you don't want max sized squads. 6 avoids the blastmaster taking a wound except against concentrated fire. Putting them in a rhino makes them hard to get to. Now against a pure paladin force they may be reduced value but not that much worse than a regular CSM unit. The obvious superior would be plague marines with 2 plasma rifles but that has a shorter range. Havocs with plasma rifles or lascannons would be better but for that kind of price, why not field obliterators. I do like - however - presenting an opponent with varied targeting choices. Field 9 obliterators and you have obviously painted targets on them. Take two units of them and then perhaps a vindicator or defiler or havocs. Give him choices to target and make him pay with the other selection you have.

The reason for talking possession is so you can always shoot. The preferred enemy is only melee.

Vindicators are large blast ap 2 death to anything toughness 5 or less. It also works against vehicles.

Taking obliterators means you can't instant death draigo wing, and the wound allocation and spacing makes the plasma cannons worthless.

juraigamer wrote:The reason for talking possession is so you can always shoot. The preferred enemy is only melee.

Vindicators are large blast ap 2 death to anything toughness 5 or less. It also works against vehicles.

Taking obliterators means you can't instant death draigo wing, and the wound allocation and spacing makes the plasma cannons worthless.

Yes possession lets ds pally's reroll. He said one likes to ds.

Vindicators are easy to pop with no other target priority. In mentioned list there is nothing else to worry about. Plus you can only move 6 in at most meaning itd be hard to get away from sr or ds's.

Oblits don't insta death but can put more shots out that can destroy vehicles and troops equally. Plus with dp who use lash you can bunch them up and not worry about scatter that much cause you will hit something. Though personally I'd rather run 2 squads of 3 oblits with 1 defiler or 2 defilers with 3 oblits. On the defilers I would use the battle canon and max out the cc weapons. Then as I shoot I move closer. If they destroy the canon big deal now I have a fleet dread. This can work vs gk or other armies.