Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I was throwing together a list for the next tournament in our escalation league and I'm starting to wonder just how vital a sorcerer really is. In this instance, I'm speaking for my Troll Horde at 2,000 points, but just in general... what do you think?

Personally, when I first started running the Trolls I won a handful of games without the use of any Wizard, although I think this was in part due to people not expecting to face the army, and being unprepared for it overall. And yet I think it's almost required to have one this addition. I'd love to run my Khorne Warriors without a wizard, but they would end up getting utterly dismantled before even reaching combat.

As I build this 2,000 pt list I will most likely leave out the Wizard again, favoring a Lord on Juggernaught. Honestly, I don't expect to go into this tournament winning (there's at least three Chaos Dwarf players... you can figure out what will happen when I face them!) and I'm fine with that. I ran a Chosen-Star in the last one, at only 1,500 points and while it was nice to crush everyone without much effort, I need to have some "Vomiting Fun Time" every once and a while.

See this is hard because of the armies I play but I will give it a crack.

For my beastmen and undead leaving home without a wizard is impossible so yeah....

For my throgg I did not run one for a long time but finally softened a little and ran a heavens lord just for +4 to dispel and he was on a carpet

For my empire I just take a lvl 2 scroll caddy as I have warrior pirests and a arch lector to do the heavy lifting

3 chaos dwarf armies?!! Wow! Gotta hate those earth shakers huh? Or are they using the new FW list? Anyway, love that your meta still has respect for the chaos dwarfs.

They use the new Tamurkhan rules. When I ran my Troll Horde in the first tournament I played one of them who was using a Flame Cannon (whatever they're called) and 2 flaming wizards alongside a bunch of shooting units... did I mention it was Battle for the Pass so I was fighting across the long table edge?

Needless to say I never made it to combat, and never killed a single model, although he did lose a hobgoblin to animosity so he did more damage even to himself!

I wouldnt dare not take a Wizard, but then I play High Elves and Brets and starting orcs. YMMV

I'm kinda in the same boat.

I am new to fantasy, and i had very bad magic experiences so far fighitng mostly Teclis High elves, then Empire with a lvl 4 and some priests, then new vampires with lvl 4's that had like +7 to their casts with the mortis engine or something....

So i have found that i seem to fair much better if i invest my points in beatstick hero's, and hordes(or death stars i guess).

That said i'v been running Festus the leechlord, a lvl 2 of nurgle, and a lvl 2 sorceror of Death with a dispell scroll the last two games. I feel more in control of magic, but i still feel very much at the mercy of my opponent.

I would like to find a way to have a lvl 4 in there, probably still with a dispell scroll. Chiefly i want him to help me defend against magic, more then push it out.... Festus is to give my horde regen and poison, but i can't give him a dispell scroll so that means another wizard...and oh the points just get hard to find...

If you've got an army that doesn't have leadership problems, try running minimum heroes.
I ran my chaos warriors with only an exaulted, and no other characters. I found that the 600 or so points I saved on not taking a level 4, a BSB and a scroll caddy typically gave me enough additional units to still compete, even after taking the magical beating.
I've got a game coming up on Friday, and I'm going to try a level 1 vampire lord, and no other characters. Should be fun.

-Matt

It all depends imo

If you have some ways to quickly take down wizards or have other magical defenses (such as warrior priests) then perhaps you do not necessarily need a lvl 4 or scroll caddy for defenses. Plus if no lores really benefit your army then maybe you dont really need the points spent

As for me though, I almost always auto include a lvl4 unless I'm running some other strange list. I admit it is a nasty habit due to imo 8th edition magic. Sometimes it is just too good from unit buffing Beasts and Life, to hexes and other nasties from Shadow and Death

Against some of the more powerful Lizardman lists, with a Slann who can basically gak down your magic phase, I've seen a few people take no Wizard and do pretty well.

A friend of mine when running a monster list takes a lvl 1 or 2 with lore of fire and a dispel scroll i think.

The idea being cast big fire ball and a second spell then have trolls maul anything thats still alive.
I have seen it work against daemons and vc so who knows.

MY 2k Daemons list has just two level 2's and does just fine. I've been doing the same with high elves as well, it's seemed to work pretty darn well.

I neglected to state in my first post that low magic armies or no magic armies compete at their best if they are fast and resilient.

I don't play WoC but doesn't Throgg reduce your stupidity problems? If so, I think a troll horde would fit the fast and resilient type.

Also with how great WoC lords are, you might have fun playing with the wizarding hat from the BRB.

Good luck at your tournament and please stomp some chaos dwarfs for me.

I collect a variety of armies, and because of this, I'd say it depends on the army

2 of my armies are High Elves and Dark Elves, whose magic is so awesomely awesome compared to other races it'd be silly not to. However, the other army I collect is Orcs + Goblins, whose magic isn't actually that good. In fact, in many cases it's best to just load up on really Killy Characters in a suiably Orcy fashion. However, I still never leave home without a Lvl 2 Shaman with a Dispel Scroll

EDIT: I don't suppose you could provide me a link to where this Chaos Dwarf list is. Just out of interest

I dunno hand of Gork is such a powerful spell it is insane. As is foot of Gork

The Shadow wrote:
EDIT: I don't suppose you could provide me a link to where this Chaos Dwarf list is. Just out of interest

Got money to burn?

I mean no offense to FW. Their books are big and nice but cost a pretty penny

And they tend to not have good editors

Johnny-Crass wrote:I dunno hand of Gork is such a powerful spell it is insane. As is foot of Gork

Agreed. But, generally, it all stops there. True, you could say that a Lvl4 has a higher chance of generating said spells, but that's relying on a lot really, and what else can you do? Maybe I'm just used to shredding things with Okkam's and stuff, but I find it's best to field a Lvl2 for mainly magicl defence, but also for the odd spell or two and leave the killing to the tooled-up Warboss.

It depends on how big of an army I'm fielding though.

Edit:

kenshin620 wrote:

The Shadow wrote:
EDIT: I don't suppose you could provide me a link to where this Chaos Dwarf list is. Just out of interest

Got money to burn?

I mean no offense to FW. Their books are big and nice but cost a pretty penny

And they tend to not have good editors

Ouch, that's expensive :(

It really depends on the army you're playing against. If I know that the other player is going to use a wizard (which is practically norm in this edition) I need one--dispells are vital. Then again, I'm biased because I run 3 wizards, and dont see my army doing well without enough beasts and shadow magic.

However, if the other player is an army with little or no magic (DWARVES!), I'd rather spend the points on a minotaur lord than on a few wizards.

Tailoring's a bit silly, though... If you're building an all-comers list, tournament-style, take a wizard!

Impy wrote:Tailoring's a bit silly, though... If you're building an all-comers list, tournament-style, take a wizard!

This man speaks sense. It's not going to hinder you taking one, but don't say that before the match because your wizard will miscast and blow up half your army

Well I did end up using a lvl 2 on Disc in the Troll army... and wow, he ended up winning the second round for me in a game that took about 5 minutes.

Regardless, I did completely massacre my first game as well, but played Warmonger's Lizards in the third round and in turn got utterly smashed myself. Luckily I got "Players Choice" for best army (appearance) which is ultimately what I brought the Trolls for. The last tournament I brought a Chosen Star and won "Best General" so time to paint up my Slaanesh for next month's tournament (it's a Rogue Trader Tournament League, so next one is at 2500) and go for "Best Overall" just so I will have achieved victory in all categories!

Loving all the input however and I can definitely agree that it depends on the army as to whether or not a "no sorcerer" list is viable.

Luckily I did not have to fight Chaos Dwarfs today since Warmonger took care of them for me!

Well, congratulations on the success!

Would I get evils if I mentioned I was working on a No-Wizard Lizard list that involved using magic items to fill holes? There's plenty now that fill holes.

But I'd take something at least - even if just a scroll caddy. Some sort of defense is better than none.

Would a no Wizard Lizard list consist of dinospam or sarus spam?

Saurus are your frontline, dinos are your heavy hitters.

But mostly Saurus. Simply because you need the Scar Vets for the anti-magic items.

just remember that you can't take Arcane items without a wizard as only they can take and use them.

So no dispel scroll or Cube of Darkness.

Skink Priest lists can do good because of those 2 items.

I had great success with my near-no wizard vampires. Smoked the ogre player, who took hell heart and dispel scroll.
The ~400 points I saved on going with the level 4 and the back up caster let me pick up some better combat support.
Without having a squishy scroll caddy/wiz-lord, I didn't need mage bunkering units. Everything fought, and fought well.


-Matt

Grey Templar wrote:just remember that you can't take Arcane items without a wizard as only they can take and use them.

So no dispel scroll or Cube of Darkness.

Skink Priest lists can do good because of those 2 items.

However you can take fun things such as banners that cause stupidity and shields that reflect magic missiles back onto the caster. Lone Necromancers or Liche Priests beware!

It is so weird reading tactics and then realizing that they only work in closed list environment playing open list changes this game.

More OT I have played my throgg without a mage for a long time

The real reason to always take a high level wizard if you can is that a *single* spell can do more damage than a close combat lord will do over the course of an ENTIRE game

If your lord has 5 attacks and is in combat from the start of turn 1 and is in combat 100% of the game you will get 12 rounds of CC.. for a total of 60 attacks

Lets say you only fight T3 models and always hit on a 3+ with a 2+ to wound.. If they units all have a parry save you'll kill 29 guys if you wound on 2+ and ignore their saves over 12 rounds!

A *single* blast template can hit 16 20mm models at a time, and many spells affect entire units which could kill half the unit .. This takes 1 round instead of 12

Kirasu wrote:The real reason to always take a high level wizard if you can is that a *single* spell can do more damage than a close combat lord will do over the course of an ENTIRE game

If your lord has 5 attacks and is in combat from the start of turn 1 and is in combat 100% of the game you will get 12 rounds of CC.. for a total of 60 attacks

Lets say you only fight T3 models and always hit on a 3+ with a 2+ to wound.. If they units all have a parry save you'll kill 29 guys if you wound on 2+ and ignore their saves over 12 rounds!

A *single* blast template can hit 16 20mm models at a time, and many spells affect entire units which could kill half the unit .. This takes 1 round instead of 12

And the lords close combat attacks count for combat res, meaning you may win combat and run down your opponent instead of getting run down.
The effects of a fighting lord and of a wizard are too different to compare/contrast in any meaningful way. Too much of what they do depends on who you face.

-Matt